Discussion Keep the Midi-chlorians out of the sequels please!!

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Sith_Knight087, Mar 6, 2013.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not necessarily. To some extent the Force is kind of like chi, and it is arguable that Vader's injuries have screwed up this natural energy flow within his body. As we were told in the OT: you must feel the Force flowing through you.

    Yet we somewhat conspicuously never see Jedi cyborgs of this "brain in a jar" nature.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 7, 2013
  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    A machine has sensors just like a hand has nerves. There's no evidence whatsoever for the whole "machines make you less of a force-user" theory aside from one insult made by OBW in ANH. And that was mostly made to make Luke think less of Vader.

    Because it's not very pleasing visually? When you think of a Hero you think of someone who is handsome. But Luke is a cyborg and it doesn't make him less of a man he was before. Same with Anakin (who was according to Lukas "a good man" before his fall).
  3. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    I don't need to 'show you the research' because I really don't care if you believe me or not. I know that what I'm saying is true because I've been a member of these forums a heck of a lot longer than you have.
  4. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    OK, fine. Clearly you are basing your opinion on "I've been here a long time". I'll take that for what it's worth.
  5. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    ^ It's not an opinion; it's something I've seen and experienced firsthand. Anyway, I'm done belaboring the point.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But a Jedi is not a machine. You must feel the Force flowing through you. Presumably you can't feel the Force flowing through something that is not really a part of you, or at least not in the same way. There is also the role of breathing to consider, a factor which is highly linked to historical concepts of life force in the body; Vader's breathing is controlled by a machine.

    Or because it really doesn't work that way? I think there's a danger of taking Yoda's TESB line too far beyond its original context. Yoda's point was that he shouldn't be underestimated due to his naturally small size. It's not like he's saying he'd be just as effective as a brain in a jar.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 7, 2013
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  7. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 4
    That's just it, it didn't beg any question. It's a question that IMO, no one was asking prior to the PT. No one was watching RotJ in the 80's & was confused & wondered about the genetics & cellular biology involved in the Force. What everyone knows is that traits & behaviors are passed on to offspring, be it human, dog, racehorse or anything else. Luke & Leia having the Force is easily accepted & understood from that perspective alone.

    Lucas has always said that SW is space fantasy, not science fiction. He says it's a homage to the serials of the 20's & 30's like Flash Gordon. The lightsaber = the sword, the Force = magic. You have the old wizard, the princess in distress etc etc. It's not consistent with the genre he himself has described to go on about cellular biology to scientifically explain the "magic" of this fantasy world.
    The midichlorian concept would've been perfect for a Star Trek episode on the other hand. Having Data & Geordie rambling on about the powers of some race after they'd analysed their blood samples in the lab.

    It's Lucas' story & vision & he can do what he wants. He's not infallible though. In the ESB blu-ray doco he describes himself as a very limited writer. There are a great many people who think that exploring the biology of the Force in 1 movie & then dropping it after that was a bad move. Clearly some people liked it though & want to see midichlorians in the ST & that's fair enough.
    Last edited by Darth_Downunder, Mar 7, 2013
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  8. BountyHunter76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    After seeing TPM in the theaters I immediately thought the midichlorian talk was going to be a lead in to genetic enhancement of clones. Like they would harvest midichlorians and use them like Force steroids.
  9. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 4
    Really, is that a fact? Athletic ability is mainly due to parental influence over genetics!? In fact athletic ability probably more that any other attribute is dependent on a persons physiology. Their agility, height, muscle mass, metabolism, length of their limbs, reflexes etc etc. No doubt upbringing, diet, training etc are very important & that may be guided by parents but to say that a persons athletic ability is mainly dependent on a parents influence is completely wrong. A kid could have no influence from their parents, or be an orphan growing up in the African wilderness & be a great natural athlete. Another kid who inherited poor athletic physiology from his parents can get all the influence & training in the world & be completely hopeless.
    As a separate example, consider that champion racehorses are worth a fortune after retirement for breeding. Why, because their offspring are highly likely to inherit the physical prowess of the parent horses.

    That's the behind the scenes reason. It has to be consistent within the story though. The movies are one big story as Lucas has said many times. They are designed to be watched in order. The fact is in ANH & ESB there are many scenes where Ben & Yoda explain the Force & not once are midichlorians mentioned, even though both of these characters speak about them in TPM. So seemingly Luke wasn't even told about them, & he is the last Jedi & the one likely to be the Jedi Master in the ST who is passing on what he has learned. He can't pass on what he hasn't learned.

    Here's a fact for you: after Episode 1 not once over the following 5 movies, despite many many scenes of Jedi discussing & explaining the Force does a Jedi ever mention midichlorians again.
    Last edited by Darth_Downunder, Mar 7, 2013
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  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I wasn't talking about athletic ability. I was talking about the likelihood of "athletic parents" having "athletic children", which was the original phrasing. Parental pressure is a factor in that likelihood. The children usually don't just start doing it because they feel like it.

    Too bad for me. I didn't have that option, which would have destroyed the famous TESB reveal. The films I saw in the theater in 1977, 1980, and 1983 were certainly not intended to be watched after 2005. They were designed to be watched at the time they were released.

    He can easily learn it from other sources, such as old Jedi records. Or the Force ghosts could have told him the information off-screen. Or Ben or Yoda could have told him the information off-screen while they were corporeally alive. To act as though you know everything he has or has not learned is to deny the fact that things happen to the characters off-screen which we do not see.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 7, 2013
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  11. Death T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1
    Then you guys won't be happy no matter what, huh? If what you say is true then the ST could not mention midichlorians a single time and people will still have issues with it. The concept has already been established, but it's not like it's been crammed down anyone's throats in the movies. The only way for there *not to be midichlorians in the movie is for the writers to somehow decanonize them. Like I said, the term kind of invaded the EU as authors like James Luceno have expanded on the subject, but as far as the movies go it's negligible. You forget anyone ever mentioned the word by the time Anakin and co. leave Tatooine.
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No, it gets mentioned again on Coruscant in two separate scenes.
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  13. Rawne Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2008
    star 2
    Where in my post did I say that I had a problem with midichlorians?
  14. Death T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1
    I said 'you guys', referring to the collective here who apparently do have a problem with midichlorians. Sorry if I offended you.
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  15. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 4
    Yes it's a factor, I said that. It's a very long way from the main element though.

    "Start doing it" - start doing what? We're not talking about "doing" athletics, like the high jump or hurdles. We're talking about being an athletic person. Many kids inherit natural athleticism. That's the analogy. The point was about inheriting Force ability from your parents. You don't have to have Jedi training to have the Force. Anakin had great reflexes & won pod races as a small kid bcs he had the Force. It was his natural ability. Luke was a great bush pilot, presumably he had fast reflexes aided by the Force. The original point was that this inheritance was easily understood before the PT without the need for a cellular lifeform to be introduced.

    Sure but we're talking about the ST. The writers have to look at the previous 6 ep's as the backstory to the ST & they'll be viewing them as one continuous story.

    That would be awesome! Scenes with Luke discussing midichlorians with force ghosts! Or explaining these off screen conversations to someone!
    Do you genuinely want to see this? In your opinion would it be better to do this or do what the previous 5 movies have done & have no mention of midichlorians by the Jedi?
    Last edited by Darth_Downunder, Mar 7, 2013
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I take athletic person to mean someone who does athletics.

    You don't see things that are "off screen". Luke can simply have knowledge of midichlorians without the film explaining where he got the knowledge. One option would be a Ewan McGregor holocron, though.
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  17. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 4
    Really? I consider myself quite athletic but I don't do athletics. I'd put several friends of mine in that boat too. Just like a Force sensitive person probably doesn't have to be a Jedi or Sith.

    "Luke can simply have knowledge of midichlorians without the film explaining where he got the knowledge"

    I give up :oops:
  18. phatdude1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2005
    star 3
    I don't see it being a big topic of the film, but if it's brought up I'm not going to go ballistic. Actually it being brought up in TPM was cool with me. I mean in a universe where technology has been around tens of thousands of years, it makes sense that something like the force can be explained by science. I know, just because it can be explained doesn't mean it should. But it was, and we all lived. Like I said, if it flows with the story, I'm cool with it.

    Like I've said in other threads: the more restrictions you put on EP7, the bigger chance you are going to be let down by it. Manage your expectations.
  19. darthYENIK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 2
    I always thought that if Lucas just named it, and didn't have that bad moment that feels like a 50s educational film where Anakin asks, "What's a Midichlorian?" that we would have received the idea of Midichlorians much better.
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  20. Master Blaster Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2013
    star 1
    True, but as soon as the PT trilogy story was being formulated, certain questions were inevitably going to come up. Like how exactly do Jedi determine who the force is strong with. It was an integral part of TPM story of Jedi discovering a child with exceptional force using potential. The process of writing fiction is largely a matter of making lots of decisions, some of them that take balls to make, because they can sometimes be a gamble in terms of whether they will be perceived as brilliant or stupid. Lucas probably had to make a tough choice at some point whether to keep it vague or invent an explanation, and he probably just fell in love with the implications for storytelling that the midichlorians presented.

    It seems that most people would have preferred that Jedi "just know" when someone is strong with the force, and how strong they are with it, and that this is just a feature of the force; that force users can not only recognize other force users, but how powerful they are as well. And Lucas would have been wise to have gone with that. It would have served the purposes of his story without troubling those fans who preferred the force to remain a mystery. And Arndt would be wise to go that route as well. He probably will, but those midichlorians will still be in the back of people's heads.
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Evidence?

    You're telling me I shouldn't take Yoda's words seriously in a discussion of the force when he was speaking of the force? Sorry, but I'd rather believe that he knows what the **** he is talking about.

    And do you really think a theory which includes stupid preconceptions that prostheses are unnatural and bad is better than the alternative? People find prostheses "yucky" (which causes a lot of problems in real life, btw.), which is probably the true reason this whole hypothesis was formed. Imo these stupid stereotypes can rot and I definitely don't want to see them in SW.
  22. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 4
    You make some good points. The thing is though the OT already established that powerful Force users could sense the Force in others. Vader could sense it in Luke in the Death Star trench for example. As I've said, measuring the concentration of cellular organisms in a blood sample is more akin to Star Trek. IMO it's inconsistent with the genre Lucas has always said SW belongs to: pulpy retro fantasy serials.

    This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas himself went cold on the idea of them after TPM. Maybe bcs they weren't well received, much in the same way that JarJar barely had a role in the next two episodes. I think we can agree that if JarJar was hugely popular with both adults & kids & everyone praised him, he would've had a far bigger role in the next two films.
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  23. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    ^ I very much doubt that what you're saying would've been the case, because Lucas is not the type of storyteller who's going to capitulate to expectations and/or fan reaction (or lack thereof) by letting those things have any bearing on his storytelling decisions. Jar-Jar's role in AotC and RotS wasn't larger because the stories of those two films didn't require him to have a larger role; his role wasn't 'downsized' because of negative fan reaction (which, BTW, I personally feel is incredibly overblown and exaggerated based on my own personal experiences in interacting with other SW fans).
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  24. Lawrence Futol Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2013
    I don't you can just take a newborn baby away from their parents on just the basis that you can "sense" the Force in them. I think the Jedi needed actual proof of a scientific nature.
  25. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Babys weren't "taken away". The process was usually completely voluntarily.
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