Discussion Keep the Midi-chlorians out of the sequels please!!

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Sith_Knight087, Mar 6, 2013.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    There is no visible indication that Qui-Gon senses Anakin could be a potential Jedi until the conversation in which he finds out about the podracing. What I'm talking about is that there was no automatic sensing of Anakin's potential merely by being in his presence. This is relevant to the original question of the necessity of midichlorian testing in the selection of Jedi candidates, who will be tested at an exceedingly young age and in general are unlikely to be podracing champions.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 8, 2013
  2. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    He received no training, and Qui-Gon could sense him. That's it. It's pretty clear. He talks about sensing a convergence of the force, and Anakin hasn't received a lick of training.

    So, the earlier point about training just goes out the window.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 8, 2013
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not in light of TESB. It seems more than coincidental that the Emperor didn't sense Luke until that point.
    ( And one factor in the relevance of training in this context is that Force training generally implies Force use. So I suppose in place of "the untrained" I could have said "the nonusing". )
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 8, 2013
  4. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Then you have in fact changed your position. A jedi can sense the force in the untrained.Now it seems you want us to consider qualifiers to that position, which invalidates the position.

    Qui-Gon can sense the force in Anakin=True

    Therefore

    You cannot sense the force in the untrained=false
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 8, 2013
  5. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 5
    Mr Fenn, you are the one who is stating the rules. You say that Force users can only sense the Force in others while they are actively using the Force. Now you seem to saying that none us can be sure whether Qui Gon sensed the Force in Anakin when they met. Well I agree with your second point, therefore your first point is mere guesswork. Your original argument was that Jedi would not be able to sense the Force in children. Again, just another guess of yours that you're trying to pass off as an established rule within the story
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    To state otherwise is also "stating the rules" and "mere guesswork".

    If Jedi could sense the Force in infants, midichlorian tests - complete with portable testing devices - would not be necessary. The existence of midichlorian testing by the Jedi is an established fact with its own implications.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 8, 2013
  7. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 5
    Really? So do you think the Jedi have no idea so they go around randomly blood testing thousands of children? Or do you think maybe they sense the Force in some of them first & then in some cases do the midichlorian test? (I'll give you a hint, option b makes more sense)
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Let's not forget that Anakin is a special case. That Qui-Gon can eventually sense the threads of destiny converging around Anakin does not mean that any old Force-sensitive would produce a comparable result. And when on Tatooine, Qui-Gon's opinion is quite noticeably informed by factors other than mere sensing. He has recently found out that a boy who just so happens to build things like droids and podracers in his spare time is also regarded as the only human who can compete in a sport which is said to require Jedi-like reflexes.

    So why bother with a midichlorian test? Shouldn't their sensing be enough, at least for the experienced Jedi?

    For one thing, do you think there are enough of them to inspect every child in the Republic?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 9, 2013
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas himself went cold on the idea of them after TPM.

    It seems that most people would have preferred that Jedi "just know" when someone is strong with the force, and how strong they are with it
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 9, 2013
  10. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Obi-Wans insult tells us nothing about the force.
    As for the EU good luck with that. EU sources are conflicting when it comes to that. Some claim that Prostheses limit your force connection, others (Plagueis and Sidious) think otherwise.

    He's saying physicality doesn't matter. From that base one can draw conclusions.

    I'm not saying you are clinging to preconceptions, only that they may be the reason why in some EU cyborgs are written as "bad".
    In history often the disfigured and limbless have been the target of discrimination. Something about not being "whole" scares people. I like to think the force and the Jedi are beyond such pettiness.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
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    star 7
    Obi-Wan's quote is not an insult, and since it refers to the Force it does arguably tell us something about the Force.

    When the same trilogy says that it does in certain respects, you may be misinterpreting him to some extent. I don't hear him saying that damage to the physical body can never limit Force ability no matter how severe ( including the extreme case of removal of almost all of the body ); such a question is apparently out of the context of his statement. And I think it should be clear that he is not saying genetics can have no effect on Force potential. Luke's there for a reason, and it has to do with something which is a characteristic of his physical form.

    But that's a separate question entirely. I'm not arguing whether they should be seen as bad or good.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 9, 2013
  12. localriot Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Having a high midichlorian count would be like winning the lotto, everyone would want their child tested at birth.
  13. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    I'm hoping Luke says that, no, the ancients were completely wrong about midichlorians, like the earth being the center of the universe or the world being flat.
  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    But it doesn't refer to the force. That you made completely up.

    What Obi-Wan is doing is dehumanizing his opponent so that Luke has reason to hate him.

    I'm just following what we know about the force to its logical conclusion. Yoda doesn't tell us very much about the force, so any statement about it is important.

    The OT itself makes it clear that force sensitivity comes from being "fated" and from the inner spirit. Then TPM rolls around and does a complete 180. And now the OT-fans are dumb because "they don't get it".

    Not to mention when you take the really scientific approach it becomes even more complicated. How are the Midis encoded in the DNA? How come they exist in so many non-related species? Which genes regulate the amount of Midis? Can they be turned on or off by Methylation like regular genes? Why hasn't anybody yet found a way yet to enhance force sensitivity by artificially inserting the relevant genes into the genome?
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    According to The Jedi Path, testing at birth is compulsory within the Republic.
    That said, Cosinga Palpatine would have managed to get his son exempted somehow- which is why the Jedi don't seem to know Palpatine is Force-sensitive.
  16. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    And that mystery is revealed by the Prophecy, not the midi-chlorians.

    Because Anakin being conceived with no father is not mystical enough...

    Every living being has midi-chlorians. Why does the Skywalker line have so many? That's your "mystical bond".

    Because everyone would want to lose their child to the Jedi, right?
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  17. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 5
    Shockingly selective quoting. My previous words that you conveniently omitted were "this is only speculation but...". See, I don't try to pass my guesses off as facts

    It seems that most people would have preferred that Jedi "just know" when someone is strong with the force, and how strong they are with it

    I didn't say this
    Last edited by Darth_Downunder, Mar 9, 2013
  18. Darth_Downunder Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    star 5
    Who knows but you've avoided the question. If the Jedi can't sense the Force in children how do they know who to blood test?

    Why would they need to inspect every child? Maybe the Jedi only take in a certain manageable number. Makes sense since there are a limited number of Jedi. One thing I am sure of is that it's ridiculous to think that they can't sense Force potential in children & they only rely on midichlorian blood tests.
  19. Orochi Oni Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2013
    star 1
    You're trying far too hard. Midi-chlorians took a lot of the mystery out of The Force for me. I don't get why you can't understand that.
  20. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    When GL reassigned the force away from the mystical in favor of a science based explanation he made Star Trek style jokes about sci-fi gobbledygook irresistible. I'm looking forward with great curiosity to how JJ handles the moment when it is revealed to Luke that use of the Force is regulated by how many parts per million of Force power you have in your blood. :-B
  21. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    Children probably are tested at birth. If Jedi had to spend their lives tracking down every tremor in the Force that could be a potential Jedi, they'd never get any of their normal duties done. The Jedi saved the galaxy from the Sith and exist as guardians of the Republic. They are revered and hailed as heroes. Thus to be chosen to join the Jedi would be a great honour for the family and finding Jedi potentials may even be an expected duty of maternity wards. Not every family gives their child up though. They have a choice.

    We're talking about a galaxy with trillions of people here. If just 1% has Force potential, that's far too many for the Jedi to track down. It makes sense for them to have some sort of filtering system in place whereby doctors perform tests on newborns with Jedi being alerted only to Midi-Chlorian accounts above a certain number. Then a Jedi can go and investigate for themselves. The Jedi can of course sense people who are strong with the Force but it makes things a whole lot easier if they don't have to follow every lead. If Anakin had been in the Republic, he'd have been tested as an infant or even a newborn, his sky-high count would have alerted the Council who would have sent a Jedi to investigate and upon finding that the Force is strong in him, not the mention the circumstances of his conception, he'd be taken to Coruscant, with Shmi's help of course.
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  22. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4

    We go from "Luminious beings are we, not this crude matter" to

    "This kid might be space Jesus, he has a lot of force bacteria in his blood"

    Kind of a downgrade.

    So back to the original question raised by the OT, should midiclorians be in the ST, I vote no. A thousand no's!
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 9, 2013
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  23. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I don't think they should be mentioned either.
  24. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    So, you don't have any argument. Saying "Midi-chlorians took a lot of the mystery out of The Force" again and again won't make it a fact. And not countering my arguments doesn't help your POV either.

    He didn't.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Mar 9, 2013
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  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "This kid might be the last hope for the whole galaxy, he inherited such Force strength from his father"

    Not really all that different.

    Qui-Gon seems pretty certain that Anakin would have been identified "early" if he had been born in the Republic. Anywhere in the Republic. It's a big Republic.

    "One thing I am sure of is that it's ridiculous to think that they can't sense Force potential in children"

    "He can't pass on what he hasn't learned"

    Et cetera, ad nauseam.

    I'm not making anything up. You seem to be thinking of a different quote.

    [face_laugh] Did somebody say something about making things up? That's not something the OT told you, that's something you told yourself. The PT simply interrupted this conversation you were having with yourself. The OT showed that Leia's guarantee of Force sensitivity was a matter of parentage, not "fate" or "inner spirit".
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 9, 2013
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