Saga Keeping the name Skywalker - Why?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by IG-85, Sep 25, 2011.

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  1. Darthman1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    As I tried pointing out earlier things still don't quite add up completely even if Owen was Obi-Wan's brother.
  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yes, it is a plothole.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Without ROTJ, the audience hasn't even heard the name Anakin, so obviously when I use the word "Anakin" in a pre-ROTJ context it is synonymous with "Luke's father".

    Luke can't have two real fathers. This concept is your own invention and does not appear anywhere.

    Even if the "Obi-Wan was from Tatooine" part is accurate, that doesn't mean the "not Anakin" part necessarily follows.

    Nor is it contradicted.

    Now you're getting things confused. Nothing about Anakin being in the wars "as a Jedi" was "rectonned" by ROTJ. But the main point is that you're fallaciously assuming that one so-called "retcon" means anything else from ANH can be thrown out. It's the usual invalid all-or-nothing scheme.

    There's no need for "on the contrary" because the propositions are not mutually exclusive. Not "confirming" ( what would otherwise be called "repeating" ) previously given information is not the same thing as disproving it.

    In other words, you want it erased, so it was erased. Except there's no proof it was erased. What kind of math results in a "high likelihood" that a fallacious all-or-nothing scheme has any validity at all?

    Because the OT can do no wrong, and anytime there's anything dubious about the plot, it must be the PT's fault. Except that's not how reality works. It's the surreal denial-based landscape of the prequel hate religion. It's not going to come true by virtue of nonsensical workaround attempts like the assumption of Luke's ANH father being a different person from Luke's ROTJ father. That represents denial of the fact that these characters were irrevocably merged into the same person.
  4. SithLord_1270 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2008
    star 3
    Well, Luke was being raised on a backwater world of little or no importance. The Empire was there bc they were chasing the Tantive. But, I think that Owen & OB1 figured that Luke would b safe with the last name. As long as Luke was there & under the radar. Which is why Owen kept trying to keep Luke there.
  5. Darthman1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    I think this is a real case of chance. It's possible (and given what happened in the films) probable that they didn't find him, but I think there's also given a chance that they could have seeing as Vader had almost 20 years of time and many men/resources to look for Jedi in hiding, ones who you'd definitely figure would choose to hide in backwater places. I think it's an issue of chance really, and I personally don't know how to calculate it.
  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Even with the above caveat, it's still a fact that Vader = 'Anakin' (a.k.a. "the guy that Ben talked about in the first film) was NOT shown/established as a 'certainty' as far as movie audiences from 1980-82 were concerned. To audiences of this period of time (before ROTJ was released), there existed a third option: that Vader was Luke's father but he was NOT the man that Ben told Luke was his dad in the first film.


    The 'invention' is on your part, because I didn't say that Luke had 'two' real fathers in this scenario. I only said that the 'real' father (Vader) could have been someone other than the person that Ben described in the first film as having been Luke's father.



    No, it doesn't "necessarily" follow, but it follows according to the scenario that ROTJ introduced (the "hidden from your father" aspect), and the parameters set up by the first film that only allows for ONE of the two characters as being from Tatooine.


    But it's status as fact is weakened by the newly introduced* "hidden from your father" subplot.

    *not a coincidence, I might add.



    The fact that Obi-Wan tells Luke that his father was seduced by the dark side before finishing his training would say otherwise. The "already a great pilot" ("when I first knew him") is all that's left of the 'Clone Wars' bit from the first film.


    It's not "all-or-nothing". I pointed out specific elements of Ben's "history" from SW that ROTJ ret-conned.


    The indication that it was 'erased', is that the newly introduced notion of Luke being "hidden" made an awkward fit with the conceit that Anakin was from Tatooine or that the Lars' were HIS family. Probably the reason why Lucas had them being Ben's relatives, for a short time. If you ever wonder why Lucas even considered going in that direction in the first place - i.e. Owen as BEN'S brother, instead of Anakin's - it's not hard to see a connection with the new "hidden from your father" subplot (which ESB didn't even hint at). Iow, there's your motive for Lucas making Owen Ben's brother.


    Statements like the above say a lot about your motives, more than anything else. I sure didn't see a rebuttal there.


  7. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    No; he tortured the identity of the "pilot who blew up the Death Star" out of a captured Rebel pilot. it was his personal knowledge that the pilot had the Force and hearing the name that provided Vader with the knowledge that his son was alive. Either one by itself only proves a possibility; both together make an absolute, and we all know who deals in absolutes. :p

  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I called that "invention" because I've never seen that stated anywhere. I think it is implicit that they are the same as a corollary of the revelation.

    Even if one element is supposedly retconned, that doesn't mean any other elements are necessarily retconned.

    Maybe not as much as you think. There is still Owen's "that's what I'm afraid of" to consider, as well as the fact that "hidden from your father" does not necessarily conflict with "from Tatooine", as the example of the PT demonstrated.

    Good, then it provides no support for your original contention - that the plot hole covered by the thread title was the PT's fault. ROTJ is OT. Anything made obsolete when ROTJ "said otherwise", or what audiences could "get away with believing" before ROTJ, is irrelevant to what was "canonically part of the story" as of ROTJ ( and ROTJ audiences were never told that Ben was Owen's brother unless they also read the novel ).
  9. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    A character called Luke Lars sounds very boring. That's the reason why.
  10. DarthAlgar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 1
    It makes sense why it didn't play out this way in the order the films came out, but just imagine something along these lines in the scene in Obi-Wan's home: "Your name isn't Luke Lars. Your uncle called you that to keep you hidden. Your true name - your father's name - is Skywalker." Music swells and Luke's eyes widen with awe, etc. Actually... thinking about it I may have unintentionally stolen the "Our name isn't Adams..." scene from Caprica. In any case, I think that would have been a nice moment.
  11. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Skywalker is a more awesome sounding name than Lars................

    Here's a controversial question about preference/opinion-What's a Better Last Name-Starkiller or Skywalker?
  12. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    Starkiller is a first name.
  13. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    In the original drafts, it was a last name, Anakin Starkiller.

    Would you have preferred if Anakin kept that last name? And Luke?

    I think Starkiller sounds better than Skywalker.

    Luke Starkiller.

    Anakin Starkiller.

    George Lucas edited it out because it sounded too extreme.
  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    If Darth Vader had known that Luke is alive the entire time, then I would see why allowing Luke to keep the last name "Skywalker" would be a stupid idea. He'd be attracting too much attention not only from Vader, but from PalpSidious and the whole galactic empire but as it is, the fact that Vader is told that Padme is dead would also tell him that Luke died with her.

    Thus, why Luke's identity is kept safe from the Sith until ESB.
  15. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Palpatine's deception is irrelevant.

    If you were Darth Vader, and began hearing reports of a young knight named Skywalker wreaking havoc on the Empire alongside Obi-Wan Kenobi (AKA, the guy who tended to your dead, pregnant wife), you would draw one and only one conclusion: "That's my kid!!!!!"

    This is unquestionably the most gaping plot hole in the series. (Which, again, is the fault of TESB.)
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    According to Lucas, Skywalker is a common name in the SW universe.

    Anakin did, according to The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, wonder if Padme's unborn child had somehow survived, but he dismissed the idea at first.
  17. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
  18. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah, but that doesn't matter either. There could be two last names in the entire Star Wars galaxy, and Obi-Wan and Yoda would still be idiots.

    Let's delve a little deeper.

    You're Darth Vader. One day, you receive reports about the Jedi exploits of one Luke Skywalker. Several things will run through your mind.

    1. His last name is Skywalker. ("Hey, me too!")
    2. He is Force sensitive. ("Wow, not a lot of folks have those talents! And come to think of it, it's hereditary!")
    3. He is twenty years old. ("Woah! I knocked up my precious angel twenty years ago!")
    4. He is blonde, white, and very human. ("Hey, I'm blonde, white, and human! At least until Kenobi left me to burn...)
    5. His known accomplice is General Obi-Wan Kenobi of the Clone Wars. ("Hold on! Kenobi was...WTF?!?")

    Cue the Jeopardy music...
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  19. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Yeah, that's all there really is to it.

    It's unknown if it was ever shot (it's not in the deleted scenes in the Blu-Ray set), but Obi-Wan referring to Owen as his brother was in the shooting script, not just an earlier draft. And yes, although the novelisations can be superseded by retcons in the films, for the most part they tend to represent what's true in the story at the time, as they tend to be based on close-to-final versions of the script, rather than being another author's creation, which is the case with the EU.

    So although it's not canon & has since been been retconned, it's fair to say that at the time of ROTJ, GL intended that Owen Lars & Obi-Wan Kenobi were brothers.

    While I agree with the rest of your points on this matter, I don't think this one is particularly valid.
    Technically, it's logically possible, based on what we'd seen & heard up to & including ESB, that there were two separate characters called 'Annikin Skywalker' and Darth Vader, and that Luke was raised believing Annikin to be his father, when, in fact, his father was Darth Vader (insert some ludicrous plot about Luke's mother having an affair with Vader, or being raped by him) - but I don't believe for one second that it was ever considered as an option, even if nothing else regarding the situation had been worked out.

    Although we've debated just when Father Vader was created (pre- or post-Brackett draft), it's quite clear that one of GL's motivations for doing so was the increasing redundancy of the original Father Skywalker in the overall scheme of things, illustrated best by the crowded little Jedi conference on Dagobah in the Brackett draft. Merging the two characters solved the problem and ramped the drama up further, while keeping them separate and introducing the twist of Luke's heritage would have complicated matters even further, with no comparable dramatic payoff to compensate.

    (I'm not sure if you were treating it as a realistic option or possibility anyway)
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Nov 10, 2012
  20. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4


    Just because someone is force-sensitive, has the same last name as you once did, aligned with Obi-wan Kenobi, and has the same hair and skin as you once did before you got burned, it doesn't automatically mean that he's your son. Even with all of Anakin's strength in the force, he couldn't even tell that Padme was pregnant so she had to spell it out for him and after she died, Anakin spent 20 years of not knowing that Luke survived her death nor that he had another child (namely Leia). For all Anakin knows, the name "Skywalker" could be just a nickname just like his own nickname of Darth Vader and he had to rely on both the Emperor and reading Luke's thoughts for Anakin to get his confirmation.
  21. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    One possible explanation (not a very good one, though, mind you) for why Luke might have kept the name Skywalker might be as a cover for how Beru and Owen got baby Luke in the first place. Beru's friends and family would likely have known she wasn't pregnant, but they'll have to explain the presence of the new baby, somehow. So perhaps they simply chose to say that Luke was the son of a relative of Shmi's entrusted to their care, hence the name "Skywalker" (which is true enough). I mean, it's not like they went through an adoption agency.

    Unless Anakin himself came back to Tatooine, I don't think anyone would have caught on. Plus, in regards to things like the pod race, Anakin was still a slave at the time he won, so his name very well might not have been documented and he would have been forgotten after some years. Watto would have been listed as the winner, I would imagine, since slaves aren't considered people.

    That's my take on it, at least.
  22. Ernesto1035 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2012
    In Choices of One, Mara Jade first hears of Luke just as "Skywalker". She considers the possibility that he might be the "Luke Skywalker" that Vader is looking for. But she dismisses it out of hand. The book states Mara's reasoning as: "Skywalker was a common enough name, especially in the Mid and Outer Rim areas of the Corellian Run. The odds were slim that this particular Skywalker was the one Vader was hunting"
  23. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    ^^^^^This.


    No at all. I was treating it as a matter of being a realistic or valid 'option' for the audience during the years 1980 to 1983 - in other words, as a 'viable option' from an audience member's pov , until ROTJ had PUBLICLY settled the issue in the summer of '83. .

    For the record, I don't believe that this Luke-is-really-a-Vader-and-not-a-Skywalker idea was ever actually the case 'BEHIND-THE-SCENES' as it were, even if for a brief period of time.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 11, 2012
  24. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Yeah, that's what I figured.
  25. Krueger Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    Skywalker is clearly the SW galaxy's equivalent of Smith.
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