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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Kevin J Anderson Is a Bad Writer.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by ScottyJSno, Dec 5, 2001.

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  1. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "Maybe he would have. But his mistakes are worse than KJA's because KJA had the material available to get the correct information whereas Zahn did not."


    He got alot of clone wars knowledge from lucas himself according one interview, somethinga bout a 15 minute call. But he still should have been careful about writing actual dates.


    "Furthermore, descriptions of space battles in books tend to be rather abstract and very rarely include precise technical details, so I will be interested to see whether or not you can find an example."


    As I remember it was knowledge on what a dreadnaught could do didn't mesh with the dreadnaughts mentioned in the imperial sourcebook. A source that zhan used to get that knowledge. An EU creation.

    "Irrelevant. I'm aware of him being in the doghouse because of what he's said in some interviews, but it has no bearing on the quality of his published work."


    No the thing is he contradicted another author. Forcing the other author to have to rewrite his plots, and add new scenes. There are interviews with veitch in which he says that dark empire story goes back 1988 or so. Would have been released many times before that except that first marvel lost the star wars linscense. Then He had to rewrite cause of zhan contradicting events.

    "I doubt that the precise discussions undergone by writers in the production of their books will ever be made available to us. Your rather incoherent wording of this statement doesn't help matters - and recriminations relating to behind-the-scenes events will be difficult for us to ever pass judgement upon."


    I think veitch's comments can be found in an interview on this site, and in one of the Adventure Journals.

    While Veitch has never insulted zahn, Zahn has done it to his works(but that is for different arguement at different time).

    "Was this statement in one of his books, and if so, was it a direct statement about the "fact" of the Star Wars universe or was it merely the opinion/supposition of a character?"


    Something that Mara Jade says in one of his books, and zhan says outside the book as well in an interview. I'm certainly glad that you don't take his words as canon as some people do on these boards.

    "Again, interview material doesn't count - if writers produce acceptable goods, I couldn't really care less what they may say to the interviewers."


    I agree and again I say yes while these errors exist, I still ejoy zhan's books.


    "This is what precipitates my above question about the precise source of the statement, if indeed it appears in official published work. When Thrawn meets Mara Jade, Thrawn (who has been largely established as a genius, a "knower of all things") indicates that Jade was not the only Emperor's Hand. As far as his published fiction goes, Zahn is noncommital on the number of Emperor's Hands, and the belief that there was one only comes simply from Mara Jade's perspective. (ref. p.238, Dark Force Rising, please do look it up)"


    I agree, but zhan says that thrawn was bluffing on this issue. I'm certainly glad you take that stance on this issue.



    "Leaving aside recriminations about who did what, the nonexistence of Endor's parent comes from a canon source - the ROTJ novel. I reiterate: I don't care what Star Tours and Ewok movies say, because canon is indisputable truth and any source that disagrees with it is automatically wrong (except for cases such as the obvious ROTJ badge blooper)."


    The novelization is considered EU canon like any of the other novels now. Saxton is wrong in his personal view now, because it doesn't mirror LFL's policies. Now that he will be working for LFL, he bound by the new policy like anyone else who works there. Only the "movies" are true canon. By lfl policy, from rostrini, and including cerasi.

    More Errors that even zahn has admitted in an interview is the power of the
     
  2. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    I know that you're not INTENDING it to be a personal insult but I'm just saying that in my experience a person is prone to get defensive if you start a sentence with "No offense, but". Believe me, every person who uttered those words means well by them, but they don't always have the same effect as you'd want them to. A person is much less likely to take offense if you just start the sentence with whatever word comes after the "but" in "No offense, but".

    Jae Angel
     
  3. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    <i> In response to NarundiJedi (first post), the "it's for kids argument" is a separate issue, and has little relevance to the immediate question of continuity. That argument is really only an excuse for everything in "kid's edition" books (I believe one has, for example, been written for Shadows of the Empire excluding the sexual references). If you want to debate this later, fine, but I think we have enough to chew over on Continuity and Canon at the moment. </i>

    I was really responding in agreement to something that Kier Nimmion was saying about his being 25 instead of 15 when he read the JAT and if he was 15 he might have enjoyed them better. I'm sorry I wasn't debating pointless canon and continuity like the rest of you, but personally I couldn't care less. Canon and continuity don't really mean as much to me if the story is enjoyable. Many fanfics are more fun to read than the stories by the pro authors, IMO. And the entire point of Star Wars was for it to be a fun, enjoyable fairy tale. It was orginally directed at children and it's only because it was a great fairy tale (one that had been done before, I might add) and a great piece of movie-making that adults got interested too. It's like Harry Potter, how lots of adults like it too. Now, lets say that 10 years after JK Rowling finishes the seven books more authors write an expanded Harry Potter series of books dealing with him as an adult. If all that mattered was sticking to the original continuity of the first series and whatever books in the expanded series that came before your book and NO ATTENTION was paid the fact that Harry Potter was originally intended for children then you'd end up with some pretty dry stuff. I found Zahn horribly dry at age eleven, as I should have. If my best friend at the time hadn't lost my HTTE book and I could read them all again, I'm sure I'd find them almost as dry today. There's more to good writing than technicalities and adult jargon. You can have that, but you lose the younger audience.

    And as for kids addition books, I've never seen one. Frankly I think the idea is absurd! It's not very difficult to keep things to a PG level in writing. Sexuality can be written in a way that it's appropriate and subtle. If a book is over-sexed then it's the author's fault because blatant sexuality has no place in the Star Wars universe. I know that's just my opinion and that many will disagree with me, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So, for the record I wasn't defending kids addition books with my statement, I was just stating why I enjoyed the JAT. Just because I wasn't answering something you said right before I posted doesn't mean I'm off topic. I believe the topic is "KJA is a bad writer". Come to think of it, debates like this are really quite pointless because none of us are going to change our minds about where we stand on this issue. So, I will just say </rant> and be gone.

    Jae Angel
     
  4. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    On the OS,novel adaption material is put in the EU section.

    And since the Ewok movies are canon,they override anything in the RotJ novel.

    Also,that novel is riddled with errors.

    Oh,and according to the story in Tales from Jabba's Palace ,Fortuna escaped on his private skiff.Just wanted to address what Dark SideSpirit...erhm..Fteik...said on the first page.
     
  5. Dev Sibwarra

    Dev Sibwarra Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 1999
    If all that mattered was sticking to the original continuity of the first series and whatever books in the expanded series that came before your book and NO ATTENTION was paid the fact that Harry Potter was originally intended for children then you'd end up with some pretty dry stuff.


    I think a more appropriate metaphor would be Tolkien's Middle-Earth books. The Hobbit, like Harry Potter and Star Wars, was something that children could understand. However, The Lord of the Rings was more complex, was written for an older audience with a somewhat higher reading level. The same series can have different difficulty levels for different stories. Both KJA and Zahn's books can fit into the saga.
     
  6. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Well, I guess I'll rejoin this argument, er discussion.

    Laying continuity opinions aside, we can compare KJA's writings with Zahn's. As I stated the first time this topic came up, I feel that KJA is a poor writer because he writes novels as if they are comic books. Since then, I have had the opportunity to read the YJK series, and I must say that, IMO, they are better written than the JAT and Darksaber. Why?

    KJA's writing style is more simplistic, as are the stories in the YJK series. When you try to write a sophisticated story on a simplistic level, the story suffers because it is not fully translated to the medium. That is why the children's storybook versions of movies are nowhere near as complete as the novelizations are. They usually have to break it up into many small parts, sometimes allowing one book for a single scene or sequence from the movie.

    On the other hand, when you try to tell a very simplistic story in a more complex framework, it doesn't usually work as well. Take, for example, How the Grinch Stole Christmas. The original story was fairly simple, and simply told, in the book and (later) animated special. However, the live-action version was, in and of itself, a more complex telling of a simple story and, IMO, didn't work as well.

    The stories in the YJK series are simpler and fit well with the simpler writing style of KJA. The stories in TTT are more complex and required a more complex style to tell.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  7. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    Yes, I'll agree with you on that, Kimball. The YJK books worked better because they were obviously directed at a young adult audience, and the story telling was more simplistic. Still, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the JAT books failed to tell a good story. I found myself going into Walmart every week waiting for Champions of the Force to come out. I haven't done that for another book up until Star by Star, but that was just because all the hype about it on the boards sucked me in. Even though the story telling might have been simplistic I wouldn't trade it in for the world. If Zahn had created Kyp I might not like him as much as I do now because Zahn has a different, less-personable style than KJA. KJA writes human interaction in a way that is more believeable, IMO. Kyp is the main reason why I enjoyed the JAT. I guess the JAT is mostly about him being discovered and falling and then coming back from the dark side. So there's no way I can really dislike a book where one of my favorite characters was first mentioned. Nobody writes Kyp better than KJA. :)

    Jae Angel
     
  8. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    Oh, and I haven't read Tolkien's books yet. I say yet because I'm just about to. But I tried reading the Hobbit when I was eight and it just didn't work for me. I couldn't get through it. Once again, my short attention span. I have a visual disability called Strabismus, or more commonly known as "lazy eye". Even though I had surgery to correct it I still have difficulty concentrating unless what I'm reading is really really interesting. So if I'm tired or if the content of the reading is really dry then I'll start skimming the book. This made english class a big pain! ;) I shall always hate Charles Dickens! :p Hehe. But that's basically the reason why I didn't use the middle earth books as my example. Haven't read them. It's a shame too! :(

    Jae Angel
     
  9. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 1999
    Well put Mastadge. Star Wars fiction, though part of a universe that is vast and wonderful, is often unrealistic and very poorly researched. There are of course exceptions (Zahn springs to mind)...

    I think you missed my point. I wasn't referring to continuity or research. I was pointing out that in general, franchise fiction is simply not as good as the stuff I try to read otherwise. I put up with poor grammar and structure, weak development of character and plot, and plenty of deus ex machina endings because I love Star Wars -- things that I would consider unacceptable in most books that I pick up. When I talk about how great such-and-such Star Wars novel is, I'm speaking strictly relative to other Star Wars novels, because most (not all) Star Wars novels are, I'm sad to say, not very well written. There are exceptions, but I think that most of the time the case is that, regardless of the quality of the author, most seem to view their Star Wars books, consciously or subconsciously, as not as important. The term "burger-flipping" comes to mind, as do interviews with authors which basically say -- yeah, Star Wars books are guaranteed to sell a lot, plus they'll get my name out to genre readers. As I've said, there are exceptions. Stackpole's Star Wars novels (besides the awful Dark Tide) I feel are actually much better than his recent fantasy efforts. Allston's books likewise. I found Salvatore's Star Wars book much more palatable than any of his other fiction I've tried. KJA is just, IMO, a poor author. But Zahn, Keyes, K-mac, L. Neil Smith, Hambly -- all of them have original fiction that far exceeds the quality of their Star Wars novels. Most of the others I either haven't been compelled enough by their Star Wars books to try their other fiction (although I am thinking of trying some of Tyers' stuff). This is the first year, I think, that I've actually read some stuff by the authors BEFORE reading their SW books, and it will be interesting to see how WJW, MWS, and Dix&Williams' SW efforts compare to their own fiction, which ranges in quality from very good to outstanding.

    Note -- I'm NOT bashing authors here. I'm putting down my observations. If I'm completely off the mark, please let me know, but the feeling that I get is that a few authors put in 100% while writing a SW book, while some others unfortunately kind of slack off on the franchise fiction.
     
  10. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    Hmmmm, you've got a point there Mastadge. I haven't read any of the authors' other books but I can understand how some of them might not put in as much effort to franchise books as they would their own original creations. Unfortunately for us that sometimes means mediocre books.

    Jae Angel
     
  11. VeGeX

    VeGeX Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2001
    There are very few writers I dislike (not hate)

    I liked JAT, introduced 2 key characters to EU and a Sith crisis is always welcome IMO

    Some people hate Stackpole and I fail to see why... I loved all of the X-Wing books - Stackpole and Allston did a wonderful job with them

    I dislike Hambly's two SW books, I think they were both rubbish - boring and I dislike Callista's character
     
  12. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Val...
    "I seem to remember he said writing the force was difficult for him, as well. (What one thinks of this issue and lucas's vision is illrevelant..."

    At least I can give Zahn credit for recognizing that he's not good enough to tackle difficult subjects. [face_plain]

    His admissision which you're remembering is from an interview. Key segments:
    • "Again, super-powerful characters are hard to write. Most stories about them can be resolved by chapter 2."
    • "Superman is hard to write, after all, without kryptonite."
    • "
    Hence, the name given to the ysilimari - "Jedi Kryptonite" (a name, which existed in SW fandom long before this interview though).

    Basically, Zahn admits he can't write the Force without a crutch. [face_plain] I think that an author really should be able to get such a key SW concept right without crutches.
     
  13. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    I always bash Stackpole but that's just because I've never liked Corran as a jedi, or even Corran in general. Stackpole is a good writer, as long as he isn't introducing more PERFECT characters into the EU. It kinda gets annoying after a while when you're surrounded by uber pilots and uber jedi. Or worse, BOTH! :mad: But other than that I think Stackpole is a fairly sound writer. He can write dialogue well between characters just like people like KJA and Keyes can (once again, my opinion) and if you overlook the uber-ness of some characters he's pretty good. :)

    Jae Angel
     
  14. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 1999
    Some people hate Stackpole and I fail to see why... I loved all of the X-Wing books

    I really enjoyed his X-wing books. I thoroughly regret I, Jedi. And I thoroughly found Dark Tide to be not only awful, but a horrible disappointment. He does military sci-fi very well, but his dialogue and romance is laughable, and starting with I, Jedi, Corran became one of the most obnoxious characters I've ever read. I don't really recall his Realms of Chaos books, but his first three bantam fantasies (Once a Hero, Talion, and Eyes of Silver) were all very strong books, but I'm finding DragonCrown War very weak. My big problem is that Corran, Nolan, Tarrant and whathisname from EoS all read and act like the exact same character, whereas Fortress Draconis I simply found predictable.
     
  15. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    My Stackpole opinions run similar to both Narundi's and Mastadge's.

    (However, Corran became an obnoxious character after X-Wing Book 2. I, Jedi was just sort of the final nail in the coffin of suspension-of-disbelief)

    When he's not creating uber-characters, Stackpole is an exceptional storyteller.

    With respect to Corran Horn, the character only seems to be tolerable when written by anyone other than Stackpole!?! ?[face_plain]
     
  16. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    I also don't like Jag because he seems like he's been infected by Stackpole's uberitis. I'd like to see someone with flaws get close to Jaina, if anyone even does in the first place. Nothing says she has to date anyone. Perhaps Elaine Cunningham will write Jag in a way where he's not so uber. Maybe Stackpole introduced Jag but I'm hoping that Elaine is the one to truely write him. I hope she writes him in a believeable manner.

    Jae Angel
     
  17. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    I take it you haven't read Red Sky, Blue Flame yet?

    Jag's uberitis seems very much alive and well. [face_plain]
     
  18. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 1999
    Jag, perfect pilot out of nowhere, so kewl he's been accepted by even that kewlest of the kewl races. A better pilot, of course, than any of the Rogues. Not only that, but he looks exactly like a beefier Wedge, is named after Wedge's father, and, despite his perfection, is "only human" after all. Bleh. Give me a character with some character, please.
     
  19. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    Oh man, I can't say how much I agree with you Mastadge. I'm glad I didn't read Red Sky, Blue Flame yet if he's that uber. It's because of people like Jag and Corran that Kyp is such a breath of fresh air to me. An immensely IMPERFECT character, my kinda thing. It's why I love bad guys so much. :)

    Jae Angel
     
  20. Darkside_Spirit

    Darkside_Spirit Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Hello again... I would just like to comment that I am convinced Matthew Trias and Valiento cannot be socks of each other (but I'll keep the evidence to myself) :)

    (no message)


    I won't get into the philosophical implications of this :)

    He got alot of clone wars knowledge from lucas himself according one interview, somethinga bout a 15 minute call. But he still should have been careful about writing actual dates.


    First rule (well maybe not quite the first, but still an important one) of debating: never let slip something that helps your opponent. Unfortunately for you Valiento, you've just provided more evidence of Zahn's meticulous and competent attitude when it comes to continuity. If Zahn was given information by Lucas himself, he can't be blamed for Lucas getting his own plans wrong.

    As I remember it was knowledge on what a dreadnaught could do didn't mesh with the dreadnaughts mentioned in the imperial sourcebook. A source that zhan used to get that knowledge. An EU creation.


    Expand, please. It's very difficult for me to post a rebuttal to a nebulous, barely substantiated statement like this one.

    No the thing is he contradicted another author. Forcing the other author to have to rewrite his plots, and add new scenes. There are interviews with veitch in which he says that dark empire story goes back 1988 or so. Would have been released many times before that except that first marvel lost the star wars linscense. Then He had to rewrite cause of zhan contradicting events.


    But the fact is, Zahn got there first. He can't be blamed for contradicting a comic that hadn't even been published yet. Being good with continuity means fitting in with the sources that have already been published and taking time to iron out any discrepancies that might appear (A.C.Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy is an excellent example of this); it doesn't mean playing games and fitting in with everything that might eventually be published. As you've mentioned, Zahn is human.

    This is pretty much as far as I can go with this without your providing more specific details about what happened between Zahn and Veitch. Where precisely did he interfere with the Dark Empire plot?

    While Veitch has never insulted zahn, Zahn has done it to his works(but that is for different arguement at different time).


    Like I've said, I have little interest in recriminations between authors - it is the published works that matter.

    Something that Mara Jade says in one of his books, and zhan says outside the book as well in an interview. I'm certainly glad that you don't take his words as canon as some people do on these boards.


    The above emboldened statement takes care of this. Please stop using tidbits from interviews and behind-the-scenes events to make a case against Zahn. We are talking about how well he researched and constructed the continuity for his published Star Wars novels.

    The novelization is considered EU canon like any of the other novels now. Saxton is wrong in his personal view now, because it doesn't mirror LFL's policies. Now that he will be working for LFL, he bound by the new policy like anyone else who works there. Only the "movies" are true canon. By lfl policy, from rostrini, and including cerasi.


    Ahhhh! But above, you've been criticising Zahn for contradicting something that had been already planned (not even published). Similarly, even if ROTJ novel has fallen to EU status (although I would appreciate a direction to LFL's revised canon policy), KJA is still guilty of contradicting something that came out way back in 1983. I might add that the old policy, whereby the novelisations were canon, was still in force when KJA wrote Dark Apprentice.

    More Errors that even zahn has admitted in an interview is the power of the force. He admited that Lucas's vision of the force is of supermen
     
  21. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Darkside_Spirit...
    "However, Matthew Trias, if you were insinuating that I am someone's sock then you are totally in error: I do not currently have any socks registered on the JC."

    It's good you don't have any socks, because I'd hate to know we're at the point of socks having socks. :eek: :D
     
  22. ReaperFett

    ReaperFett Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 1999
    Preach it Mas, preach it




    To me, the JAT made me like Kyp. He didnt at any stage feel too good like other certain Jedi.




    And as for Stackpole, I loved Rogue Squadron and Bacta War, liked Wedge's Gamble and enjoyed in a flawed way The Krytos Trap. However, Isard's Revenge wasnt very good IMO, I, Jedi was poor(although I will admit that it was well written and all), and the DT duology the worst part of the NJO




    He can't be blamed for contradicting a comic that hadn't even been published yet

    Can when he knew about it and chose to ignore it
     
  23. Kier_Nimmion

    Kier_Nimmion Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2000


    With respect to Corran Horn, the character only seems to be tolerable when written by anyone other than Stackpole!?!

    I feel the same about Zahn and Mara Jade.


     
  24. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "Irrelevant and incomprehensible. If you are Matthew Trias's sock (which I have - as mentioned - reason to believe is very unlikely), why do you have to lower your prose standards so much between usernames?"

    Ad hominem attacks don't suit you, nor do I have time for that rubbish. I'm too busy as it for the weeks to come, and my time on these boards are short. and no, I'm not a sock of trias, that was just a bit of humor he asked me to put into my sig. I've removed it because it seemed to have influenced you to resort to attacking my character. But I seriously don't have time for any more of that.

    I know genghis can give you alot more about zahn, and he'll be alot more harsh about it as well. As well as loads of quotes from the books, and other sources, as well as any admittances that zahn has messed up.(You know admittance of guilt is admissible by law right?)

    Besides, you haven't given any refrences, as to why KJA is so bad in his own books, how am I supposed to debate your attacks on his books, hmm? You could be implying things on him that don't exist. Nebulous alligations to be sure. Because of such it makes rather one sided arguement, and I don't feel like doing all the talking.

    Not worthy of my time, indeed.

    So I bid you adieu.
     
  25. Darkside_Spirit

    Darkside_Spirit Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    Logically, if a person has multiple usernames, then all his names are socks of each other. So if Matthew Trias was Valiento's sock, then Valiento is also Matthew Trias's sock.

    ReaperFett, authors do not have to be in agreement with unpublished material, anymore than they have to be in agreement with fanfiction.

    Valiento, charmed indeed. I honestly couldn't understand your post, and how am I supposed to debate when your messages aren't phrased comprehensibly? It wasn't an ad hominem attack, nor was I attacking your character. I think that the advice I have been given about not putting "no offence" at the beginning of a line has been rather discredited here! ;) Maybe I misjudged you, thinking you would understand that everyone is much better off in a debate if we dispense with pleasantries and simply go on the implicit assumption that nothing is remotely personal, however harshly worded.

    Nor I intend to resort to personal attacks or grudge-bearing in response to your retiring insult. Adieu and best wishes to you, and I would honestly like you to bring this formidable Zahn-hater in.
     
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