Kevin Smith on AOTC

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Darth_OlsenTwins, Jul 16, 2002.

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  1. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Jabbadabbado
    I still say that that is his opinion and yours is yours. nobody is "RIGHT" or "WRONG". Everyone sees things differently. Becuase his is different then yours does not make it wrong. Because yours is differnet then his does not make it wrong. Your opinions are just different. You can not say my opinion is wrong becasue I sees things different then someone else. I loved TPM. others did not. Does that make me wrong? No.
  2. TokyoXtreme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Wow, those are two excellent posts from Jabba and Al. I am now finding it very difficult to agree with Kevin Smith and his interpretation of the love affair between Anakin and Padme Skywalker.

    I agree that Anakin and Padme's relationship should have taken place over a period of months, or even years. The relationship between Han and Leia seems more valid, as it spanned a period of at least four years.

    As an aside AL, which cliches in AOTC do you feel strengthen the film, and are there any cliches that weaken it? I agree with your comments about Mamet; although his work was difficult for me to enjoy at first, I have gradually become progressively more fond of his style and craftmanship.
  3. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    I disagree AL, but repsect your opinion.
  4. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Yeah, let's not make it an argument about whether we respect Kevin Smith's opinion. I stated in my first post that I felt it was an intelligent critique, and I've stated that I feel his interpretation causes dramatic/narrative problems and finally that the interpretation isn't really justified by the expression on her face when she gets the bad news.

    If Kevin Smith's interpretation is "the way Lucas intended it", then I think it makes AOTC an even weaker film, and seriously roadblocks the progression of the prequel story arc.
  5. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    DarthTerrious wrote:

    Well I am surprised at you AL. Is this the same person that before AOTC came out was, i perceive, defending AOTC from the bashers who condemned it before it came out?

    Yes, the same. Bashing a flick before it comes out is a moron's work. It's pointless. Even with a Paul Anderson flick one should always keep an open mind. Further, I can't see how a Star Wars fan would want to bash an upcoming Star Wars film: it just does not make any sense to me whatsoever.

    After I saw the film on the Sunday before it come out, I came to the boards and told everyone that I did not like the film. I was, and still am, sad. The only obsession I have in my life is Star Wars. I enjoy being obsessed with it. The fact that the film turned out to be more than just sub-par makes me sad and not angry.

    But I guess all you "bashers" moan even when a seasoned Star wars fan, like KS actually notices (which none of you do i might add) that despite the cheesiness and cliche that the love story is clever and as the article I linked to in my previous post also added has a very good mythological link.

    Firstly, I would take issue with his seasoned fan BS. What is that? It is akin to people boasting about their post counts and registration dates. If we resort to that, then I am one of the biggest Star Wars fans here: I registered before you didn't I? I have more posts than you, don't I? It's total bull trying to introduce a class structure into a group of fans that does not need one.

    Secondly, there is nothing mythological about this. The love story is not clever, it is way too simple. They fall in love for the sake of the story, they fall in love because in the Star Wars saga they have to. The characters don't do anything natural that would lead them to look at each other in a different way than the one we are introduced to at the beginning of the flick.

    It seems you are determined to moan and dislike the film (and the PT for that matter) without even giving it a chance.

    Again, that is childish name-calling. I am desperate to love this film actually, and I can't because I feel it is a horrendous piece of cack. Admittedly, my views on the whole idea of a PT has started to change, though this does not affect my utter love for the OT AND The Phantom Menace.

    I bet it is frustrating when a "basher" does not fit in with a usual cliche. I bet it is really frustrating when he explains himself.

    TokyoXtreme wrote:

    As an aside AL, which cliches in AOTC do you feel strengthen the film, and are there any cliches that weaken it?

    The cliche of boy meets girl he is besottedover and they eventually fall in love is a good one. It is executed badly, that's all. If this had spanned at the least six months, I would have bought it. Alas, it spans a matter of days. If this had happened in a film that felt otherworldly enough, as TPM for example, I would have bought it. It did not, and I did not. It felt wholly unoriginal.

  6. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Sorry Jabbadabbado I reread what you wrote in an earlier. My apologies. What only matters to me at least is if I liked it or not. Not even what KS or anyone else for that matter says is going to change how I feel. KS has a very interesting way of discribing things though.
  7. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3

    I thoroughly enjoyed the Kevin Smith comments/review, and I love his 'take' on Anakin.

    Where we part company, however, is in how believable it is that Padme falls for this guy - who is, I think, very nicely summed up my Mr Smith! Padme isn't "just" your ordinary high school girl...college woman... or even an exceptional young woman. Lucas has built her up as someone who is stratospherically incredible... Elected...ELECTED, mind you! ... queen of a planet at age 14... Planetary Senator at age 24... a woman who has been presented as being astonishingly courageous, intelligent, compassionate, "worldly", savvy, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....

    And then Lucas has her "swept off her feet" by a (very realisitically portrayed) high school hothead who commits mass murder.

    Uh-HUH....

    ;)

    And that just DOESN'T work for me. It doesn't FEEL real. It feels preordained - and that is not an excuse, despite the 'destiny' argument being invoked by many...

    My two cents...

    Shadow
  8. QuiGonJinn84 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 1999
    star 2
    Hi everyone, I haven't been going to these boards, mainly because I don't want to see people arguing over the merits of this film. I wished with all of my heart that this would be the movie that made Star Wars STAR WARS again, but it didn't. Fans are still split, and the media is still building Lucas up to gleefully tear him down.

    Reading AL and Jabbadabbado's posts, which I found very honest from two of the forum's most renowned members, prompted me to write some thoughts.

    This Kevin Smith article made me reconsider my thoughts on the film. And then I realized that it was just that I wanted to believe taht Smith's opinion is one that I can hold. It is not. I look at this film with great sadness, because it had so much potential. No, I was not a person who was screaming on these boards 'AOTC will be the greatest movie of all time!' weeks before it came out. I looked to the film with trepidation, the trailers didn't excite me. Really the one thing that got me was the music from John Williams.

    This is not a well done film. It's that simple. I don't share AL's point of view, he seems to have problems with the movie as a whole. I think the Kenobi/Republic plotline (the larger story) works just fine. I love that Yoda knows that they are heading into dark clouds and all he can do is try and see some light through the darkness. I love that the Jedi are getting more and more arrogant. I love Palpatine's plans. Lucas could have given us the most simple of reasons for the fall of the Republic, instead the way Palpatine has done things, and the way the Jedi have proven actually fallible is genius.

    My problem lies with the love story. And you 'gushers' or whatever, will groan because it's a cliche for a 'basher' such as myself to criticize the love story. Yet the truth is that I don't dislike it because it's campy or cheezy, I don't like it because it just doesnt work. I need to get a feeling that they love each other. And I dont! It's not believable, we can come up with any reason to justify WHY they love each other, but unless you believe it and feel it than it doesn't work.

    Padme never lets us into her mind and it hurts the movie. We should know what she is feeling, it can't be found in these little glances she gives Anakin. When she pledges her love we should be elated and ready to cheer because she has finally given in. Instead at that moment it's just like where the heck did that come from? I feel nothing watching the wedding and I should definitely feel something.

    This movie works in outline form. The reasons for the way things occur, the storyline, the character development all works. But the final movie doesn't show us what we need to see. We have to look for what should be obviouisly on screen. And I will not make excuses for this movie just because it is Star Wars.

    I like it, I enjoy watching it, and the hardest thing is I really like the characters, maybe even love the characters. But their story does nothing for me. This movie adds to the original three movies, it gives them more depth, but thats all it does. It should be its own movie, a movie that adds to the OT and a movie that the OT adds depth to. But it is a one way thing. And thats unfortunate to me.

    I still have hope for Episode 3. Three times is a charm.
  9. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    I still have hope for Episode 3. Three times is a charm.

    Oh absoluetely. I am remaining spoiler free for it as well: it is the final Star Wars movie, after all. :)
  10. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Al firstly I'm not referring to myself ok. I know very well I'm hardly the most recognised person on these boards. Like I give a stuff about that. I was saying that Kevin Smith was a seasoned Fan, i never made a reference nor hinted at myself. And maybe seasoned was the wrong word but asI say I was not boasting about myself. I couldnt be less interested in whether I'm a bigger fan than you, I havent the ego problem.

    Secondly the love story still can be akin to mythology even through its simplicity. I dont need to explain it because I have the article from Suite101 to do that. But I guess your opinin is the way it is, and I don't mean to force any other on you.
  11. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    I did not mind the movie as a whole and I thought the love story was fine as well. Did not bother me any. Thought KS pretty much nailed on the head.
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    The fans aren't split, it's just now there are fewer fans left. Each one of these films is like another round of musical chairs. Nobody knows if they will still have a seat until they see each film. Not all of us can make it to the final round, and fewer will be able to withstand the final round.
  13. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    That's an interesting take, GMT, worthy of its own thread. But I'm not sure how it relates to Kevin Smith and whether or not Padme embraced her love for Anakin with full knowledge and understanding of the crime he committed.
  14. Jansens_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 2
    I for one enjoyed AOTC, but never really like the romance bit. That was until I read Kevin Smith's thoughts. I have to tell you that I really think he hit it on the head here because he made me realize that Anakin really was a troubled teen with no experience in dealing with his love for Padme. I never really thought of it that way.

    I also want to say that I loved Kevin's movies, from Clerks to Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, my favorite being Dogma. (I know that many were offended, but I wasn't for 2 main reasons: 1. I'm not Catholic, so it didn't really offend my beliefs directly, and 2. I took note of the little advisory at the beginning of the movie)

    I have also noted that some people are bashing Orson Scott Card. He is one of my favorite authors of the century, and can only assume he wrote a negative review of AOTC to earn your wrath. I haven't read it, so if someone would give me a link, it would be appreciated.

    Well, it was long and rambling, but that's my 2 cents.
  15. JediHPDrummer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2002
    star 3
    Hey all you guys that didnt think the love story was the greatest shoud go here http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/16739/93304
    You'll probably get the best explanation and this is what lucas intented it to be. A very old and classy medevil romance. Read it, then talk.
  16. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    I posted a link to that ame article on the previous page but no one seems to take notice.
  17. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    Jedi-HP...

    My "problem" with that point of view...that understanding what Lucas "intended" addresses our issues with the Love Story... is that on one important level, it doesn't really matter what Lucas intended... it matters what is on the screen, and how it works.

    Someone earlier in this thread put it more succinctly, and I think they did so by noting that we all know the OUTLINE of the story here, what is "supposed to happen" at the macro level, and few of us have any issues with that - which is saying something, since a good many movies don't work even on that level! However, it is the EXECUTION that we have problems with... in this movie, Lucas has to take Anakin and Padme from being basically strangers (it is all but said that they have had NO CONTACT FOR A DECADE!!!) to star-crossed lovers willing to risk his being tossed out of the Jedi order (and maybe scandal, disgrace, etc, although this is only hinted at, and seems a bit of a stretch in the case of Padme). He has to do this WHILE showing Anakin slowly slipping down the slope towards the Dark Side.

    And for some out there, he did just that..but for some of us, he did not.

    I understand, I think, what GL wanted to achieve... I just don't think he DID achieve it. I don't want to turn this into yet another "Love Story" thread, but I suppose that is almost unavoidable, since most of the Kevin Smith quotes center on that aspect of the story...

    Shadow
  18. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    I don't care for Smith's films much at all, but doesn't mean he's not a talented filmmaker of course. I share the same view he does regarding the relationship and just about everything else. This movie was great. :)

    Some of the best tragic love stories take place over a short period of time. Length has nothing to do with its validity.
  19. JediHPDrummer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2002
    star 3
    thanks for your honest input shadow-jedi. Maybe it didnt work for you, it did for me. I just think anything that lucas does is going to get critized to the mass. But if this was the second ever movie of star wars, people would be on a different leg(form of expression)
  20. prof_frink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 1999
    star 3
    Kevin Smith's interpretation makes Padme a coward and an accomplice.

    Kevin Smith's interpretation instantly turns Padme into a self-victimizing buffoon who truly deserves whatever happens to her.


    Which one is it? Is she an accomplice, a victime or a bafoon, because I don't see how she can be all of them at the same time...

    And how is an audience supposed to sympathize with a genocidal crybaby teenager

    That's what EP1 was for, to make you like Anakin, but you people want to pretend that the movie never happened, and start with AOTC instead...

    Fact is, the audience is meant NOT to like Anakin in EP2, and I would expect even less in EP3...

    And lest you forget, Kevin Smith liked Ep1, he wrote a rather favourable review of it back then...
  21. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I did buy the whole love scene bit but somebody posted this comment

    Padme never lets us into her mind and it hurts the movie.

    I am a "gusher", but I have to agree that the love story would have been more effective with a look into Padme's thoughts. In he novel there were several scenes with Padme and her family that really made the story more believable there. But they were not in the film. These are deleted scenes or just not filmed.

    There was one scene were Padme is speaking with her sister. Her sister mentions that she could tell that Padme liked Anakin. I think that little bits like this would have made it better.

    However, I did buy the love scene and I'm not going to say that this movie was bad simply because there was room for improvement.

    EDIT: Thanks to all for not turning this into a heated basher/gusher war.
  22. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    I loved Kevin's article on AOTC. I think he brought the common man's perspective to the movie. You know, the average joe who isn't a SW fanboy, or someone with complete knowledge of how films are made, or any scholars steeped in mythological lore. For the average American male and female this is how the story should look. But it looks like some people still have problems with the fact that GL made this work.

    Padme in the confession scene is there to comfort Anakin after the death of his mother. But she has just blown him off back on Naboo and has to be careful that she doesn't cause any more problems for him. But then comes Anakin's revelation that he took revenge on the whole Tusken tribe. Now she is definitely shocked by this revelation, but her feelings for him and her sympathy towards him for losing his mother prevent her from giving Anakin the stern lecture he seems to require. Also I would have to assume she might be more than a little frightened by him. She knows Anakin made a huge mistake but probably wants to put off any discussion of it until he calms down a bit. Unfortunately events on Geonosis call for her and Anakin to shift focus and put aside the incident to go and rescue Obi-Wan. Anakin doesn't want to go, but Padme BRAVELY points out that their duty is to go and rescue him. She is a strong, talented woman as many here have pointed out, but she needs Anakin's help because he has supreme talents as well. People seem to be forgetting he is the Chosen One.

    Time in AOTC- Any moviegoer should know that we don't get the benefit of seeing every little thing unfold before us. If you want that go read a book. GL prefers to have about 2 hours to tell his story but with the love story angle he needed to put on about 20 more minutes, making this the longest SW to date. So here's what he does. First we get the revelation that Amidala is in real danger and Palpatine arranges to have the Jedi protect her knowing two things. Either the Jedi will fail and she will die, which he can use to call for a Army, or she will be conveniently out of the way on her home world when all the important decisions are made. We also know that Anakin and Palpatine have had more than a casual friendship over the years, so he may know a lot about the young man. Maybe even that he has a thing for a certain Senator. So it all falls neatly into place. So the second act begins with Anakin and Padme traveling to Naboo. GL doesn't have too much time to work with, b/c he still has another plot going on, so he does something really ingenious with the love story. He makes their affair progress over the course of one day. A microcosm of real life. You have the first kiss, the first date, the second date, the love confession, and unfortunate rejection. It is supposed to rushed and Padme's rationality stops the progress dead in its tracks. The third act transpires over the rest of the movie. Anakin has a crisis to deal with, and Padme accompanies him because she still does care about him. Then he finds his mother, she dies, he goes temporarily insane, and then confesses his transgression to Padme. She maybe in denial or confused, but unforunately duty calls to the impressive 3rd act of the movie, and she will have to hold off judgement until later. And we all know what she finally decides. So time plays a negative role in the film. They don't have the luxury to think about the consequences of their actions. So in the end it leads to a terrible decision for both lovers, but not so much for the fate of the galaxy, since their children play a huge part in defeating the Empire in the OT.
  23. Qui-John Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 1999
    star 3
    Okay, after much transcribing (boy, are my fingers tired!), here's the whole, bloody thing: :D
    ____________________________________________

    When I was a kid, much to my chagrin, my grandmother watched The Young and the Restless every afternoon. This was a problem for me, as the campy, live-action Batman ? my prepubescent raison d?etre ? aired at the same bat-time on a different bat-channel. And, try as I might, I could never boo-hoo my Grams into switching stations.

    The older I got, the more fervently I?d rail against her soap ? no so much in an effort to get her to spin the dial to Batman but more to convince her on a critical level how insipid the show was. And Grams, God bless her, would always simply shrug, smile at me knowingly, and go back to enjoying the adventures of Nicky and Victor. Sure, I might?ve had a point in all my caviling, but she liked what she liked, and no amount of belly-aching was going to make her turn her back on what she called ?her stories.?

    This summer, Episode II: Attack of the Clones was met with a more churlish response from the critical community (both off and online) than Richard Gere?s plea to an audience full of New York cops and fireman for peace and cultural understanding at the Concert for NYC 9/11 benefit. With the exception of Time?s Richard Corliss, most critics sharpened their lightsabres and carved poor George Lucas a new one, as if he were a Taun-Taun and they were trying to save a Wampa-ravaged Luke from the freezing winds of Hoth in The Empire Strikes Back. To use a less-fanboyish analogy, the Powers That Be beat the **** out of Episode II like the movie had fu**ed with their girl- or boyfriends behind their backs.

    What were the all expecting that had them feeling so let down? I?ll allow that in terms of predictability, Episode II (and Episode I) make Titanic seem like a veritable whodunit. We all know the Empire?s going to rise and eventually fall at the hands of Indiana Jones, the dude from Corvette Summer, the chick who wrote Postcards from The Edge, and an army of teddy bears. We all know that the Jedi will be hunted to extinction, with the exception of Alex Guiness. We all know that Yoda lives through the Clone Wars and matures into a Muppet. There?s little-to-no mystery left in the Star Wars prequels, with the exception of seeing exactly how the space-**** winds up hitting the space-fan. And that should be enough to get even the causal fan into the theater.

    Taken on those terms, I was enthusiastically not disappointed by Attack of the Clones. ****, I loved it. Why?

    Because I love a car wreck.

    That?s what the new Star Wars flicks are to me: stunning, tragic car wrecks. And I don?t mean that in the pejorative sense, like this round of flicks is ?sterile? as so many critics seem to feel. You can throw a rock and hit a happy naysayer happy to pontificate about how Lucas has lost his humanity, citing the last two installments of the Star Wars saga as guilty of being more digitally manipulated than a free-spirited eighth-grad girl?s breasts by her over-sexed boyfriend. But I?m not one of those cats. I?m digging the new installments for what they?ve become: the tragedie du Darth ? the slow fall of Anakin Skywalker into the greasy clutches of the Sith.

    And that little melodrama has never been more on display than in Clones. Here, we?re presented with the adolescent Anakin ? the boy who'll later torture his own daughter (unwittingly, to be fair) and cut his other kid?s hand off (rather wittingly). From the get-go, Lucas captures my limited imagination with one simple proposition. Darth Vader was once a teenager. How pedestrian, yet how profound! Evil's gotta start somewhere, right? Why not show why Johnny can't read - or in this case, can't play well with others, and insists on using the Force to choke underlings who don't live up to his expectations? From the hit-or-miss origin of Phantom Menace's take on baby Anakin as
  24. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    "Some of the best tragic love stories take place over a short period of time. Length has nothing to do with its validity. "

    I agree. Look at Titanic. That love story only took place over 1 day.
  25. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
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