SWRPF Archive Knights of the Old Republic III: Shroud of Darkness

IC: Atton Rand



"How did you know I was looking for you?"

Atton gazed at Juhani with distrustful eyes.

"I could feel your presence. i still couldn't tell who you are, but i knew somebody was there."

Atton then saw as she stepped closer into the room. he positioned his body to be ready for any type of attack. he didn't understand why she would come looking for him but he thought he would humor her. he then realized that she was about to speak again.

"Really I was wanting to find out about you, who are you and why is it that you have been chosen to be brought into this mission?"

He though about his answer. why was he on this mission? he then decided to speak.

"you really want to know? uh, well, how 'bout i answer with another question, have you ever thought about this galaxy? Haven't you ever thought about not saving it? to have these beings look up to you with fearful eyes and demand to be saved, and you look down at their pathetic face, and say NO. have you ever thought that maybe this republic, shouldn't be saved, that maybe this quest for Revan is just a mistake. so to give a complete one question, why did you come on this mission, well besides to find out the truth about Revan?"

TAG: SnipeHunter

 

"you really want to know? uh, well, how 'bout i answer with another question, have you ever thought about this galaxy? Haven't you ever thought about not saving it? to have these beings look up to you with fearful eyes and demand to be saved, and you look down at their pathetic face, and say NO. have you ever thought that maybe this republic, shouldn't be saved, that maybe this quest for Revan is just a mistake. so to give a complete one question, why did you come on this mission, well besides to find out the truth about Revan?"

IC:Juhani
Ebon hawk

She thought about his question before answering "I don't want to find out the truth about Reven, I want to be able to help stay on the path of the jedi if he has fallen like he did for me once." Juhani stopped for a moment recalling the confrontation with Xor the man who killed her parents and race out of hatred for her people. "In answering your other questions, I have thought about this galaxy and how my actions, and the actions of all the other people on this mission, affect the people of the galaxy and I believe that it isn't a case of saving the galaxy, it's about being there to help out the people, and if that means that you have to stop a powerful sith master from executing whatever plans they have to being the voice of reason in an argument between two people, that is what we must do."

She looked directly at him now and gauged his response to the next part "And we do this for two reasons, we do it because if we don't then who will? and we do it because that is what being a jedi is. So I haven't thought about not saving the galaxy, because I never think about saving the galaxy in the first place."

TAG: Hitman

 

OoC Is anyone alive around here?!?!

 

OoC: I've been watching the posts but haven't had time to write anything substantial in the last week and a half due to a number of factors. Expect a major post from me later thought in which the Ebon Hawk finally breaches the Tear (so if you have anything you want to do or say before than, be quick about it everyone).

 

OOC: seeing how things are ATM, i'll just do something after the jump into the tear. doesn't really seem like there's much to do right this second honestly.

 

IC: Carth Onasi
The Tear

They were here. Carth dropped the Ebon Hawk out of hyperspace at the coordinates that Ergeron had supplied them. As he stared out the viewport he saw with his own eyes a rip in the very fabric of reality. The Tear bristled with a darkness completely unlike the surrounding space; a blackness which was piercing and utterly chaotic. The violent nature of the void had taken him aback, and now in the moment of truth he hesitated.

Carth became aware of the rest of the crew now congregating in the cockpit, no doubt aware that they had reentered realspace and arrived at their destination. Gathering his courage, he slowly brought the Ebon Hawk towards the maelstrom of nothingness.

Without a sound reality peeled back to reveal a new plane of existence before them. Yet realization dawn to slowly upon Carth as he looked past the asteroid-littered expanse of crimson-tinted space and sulfuric clouds of stardust only to gaze upon an armada of ancient Sith warships already opening fire upon the unsuspecting Ebon Hawk. He hadn?t even had time to think when the first blasts hit with deadly precision, decimating all of its deflector shields.

And then it hit Carth that this was the same portal used by the Sith emissaries who approached the Mandalorians, which would mean that Revan stumbled upon the same trap they now found themselves in. Even as the adrenaline surged through his veins his heart sank in his chest, for he now knew in his heart that Revan was surely dead, just as they too would soon be.

Another direct hit ripped through the Ebon Hawk. Carth felt a surge of heat engulf him and tiny shards of plasteel tearing through him as the ship exploded apart. He knew that in another half second his body would burst in the low pressure of space and that would be the end for him.

With eyes tightly shut he waited for death to quickly take him, until he realized that several seconds had gone by and the heat of the flames had not yet given way to the near absolute zero temperatures one would expect. He slowly opened his eyes, and as he did his body involuntarily gasped for air. As he did, a foul and painful gas filled his lungs, just barely breathable. It left a taste on his tongue that nauseated him the first time he inhaled, and yet he was relieved to find that he was still alive and that this bizarre environment in which he found himself floating was not deadly, at least not immediately.

As he searched the hellscape all around him he could see the frantic flailing of similarly disoriented crew members in the distance. Other than the barely discernible silhouette of Loriana, they were all too far away for him to identify, but nevertheless he was not the only one to survive. Still, he couldn?t imagine that they were all so fortunate, and couldn?t help but wonder who the blast might have killed.

Not that it would matter in the end: several smaller Sith vessels were approaching, undoubtedly to finish them off. Yet as one continued toward him it held its fire, instead drawing his injured body aboard. He could tell that he was about to pass out, but before he did he looked up to see a hooded Sith staring at him with yellow eyes. He addressed Onasi through a breathe mask, and as Carth?s eyes began to close, he could just barely hear him speaking: ?I am the emissary of Emperor Adas XIII, the Eternal Jen?ari, in whose realm you are trespassing.?

[image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/f4/UnidentifiedSithLord-TOR.jpg]

When he finally awoke, Carth was unable to see anything, the result of a bag having been placed over his head. It was primitive, but it did the job: he was unable to see who it was that he could hear talking.
?My lord, what would you have me do with the survivors??

?Throw them in the holding cell with Antilles. It was by my design that they ha

 

OoC: nice. so...the greath Revan, the mightiest of Jedy has been slowly roating in his cell all this time... poor fellow no offence ment.

 

IC: Atton Rand



Atton stares at Juhani in disbelief for a couple of seconds, he then lets out a bellowing laugh.

"you want to save him? well, how do you propose you'll do that? i don't think you even know how to do that. You're like me, you don't know what you are doing you just do it."

there was a moment of quite silence. it was disturbing in a way, for some reason Atton adds tensino to even the smallest of conversations. He adds anger and emotions of resentment to a typical "getting to know each other" situation. maybe it had to do with the last time he was on board the Ebon hawk. or maybe he just didn't feel like holding back what he truly felt; not that he did much of that to begin with, after all he always seemed to make snide remarks towards anybody that crossed his path, but now he was wanting to make them hurt. A new fundamental belief is most likely to blame here, don't turn your face away from the truth no matter how ugly. Atton was tired of looking at his own reflection and decided to let out some aggression on the first person who came by.

"Hey. i am sorry about that, it was uncalled for. listen, i get it, you have a debt to repay right. he saved your life so now you'll save his. i understand. well in fact i wish i had that type of connection with someone. well at least anything but the good 'ol fight to the death relationship.especially nowadays with the "General" pretending to be so courages and noble."

At this point Atton's heart filled with hatred, with anger. he quickly realized this and tried to calm himself down. he quickly sat down on the cot and stared at the floor, waiting for a reply from juhani. as he is gazing into the deepest reaches of his own mind carth suddenly feel the ship jerk and shake violently. Juhani and Atton stare at each other for only a couple of moments and then the second shake hits. they both go running to the cockpit. there they see Carth trying to adjust to the environment of the tear. Atton closes his eyes fearing what was beyond the tear. the Ebon Hawk moves through the void, then atton opens his eyes, only to be greeted by the sight of battleships blasting away at the ship. the was the last image he saw before he and bastila were jerked backwards Atton went flying and hit his head on a nearby wall causing him to go unconscious.

A few Hours Later

Atton finally wakes up. the first thing he sees is a dark cloaked figure standing next to carth, he only knew it was carth through the color of his clothing, everything else was in a blur. He looked around the room. searching for some of the other crew members.



TAG: all

 

OoC: If you're a member of the Ebon Hawk crew, post a reply within the next several days to indicate that your character survived the Sith ambush. Otherwise, you might find that your character was killed in the explosion. Atton is safe, as is the Exile, and the Starbird crew, though more posts from them would be welcome as well.

 

OOC: Ill post soon i just need to do a few things first it may take me a day or two from now but I'm still =wanting to be in the game, Darth Real Life needs a good fight for a few days at most.

 

Ooc: I tried to post something as Bastila for days, but cannot write it. Writer´s blockade. I think I have lost my connection to the game, which is a shame. But entirely my fault. I therefore would suggest Bastila Shan died in the crash and wish you guys good fun . . . thanks for the experience!

 

IC: Revan
Sith Detainment Cell, The Tear

Revan could not quite make out the details of their faces, but he could tell by the outline of their silhouettes the identity of his latest cellmates. Right in front of him stood Carth; even with their connections to the Force greatly diminished by the Sith alchemy of the holding cell, the bond between them had remained strong enough that Revan could sense immediately who he was. Behind Carth stood Sunrider, one of the top generals under his command during the Mandalorian Wars. Next to her was his old companion Juhani. The two of them had never been close, certainly not as close as he and Bastila. But where was she? The last figure was clearly male, though he couldn?t be sure that their paths had crossed before. He turned to Carth:

?I?m sure that you have many questions for me, just as I have for you. But first tell me this: where is Bastila? I take it this was some sort of a failed rescue attempt on you parts, for you could have no other reason to venture so close to the galaxy?s edge. And that being the case, I would find it surprising for her not to accompany you.?


IC: Carth Onasi
Sith Detainment Cell, The Tear

After all these years, the first thing to enter Revan?s mind had been Bastila. Carth had known that they were lovers once, but they had never displayed any genuine affection for each other, at least not in front of him. Carth had always taken their relationship to be merely physical, but perhaps there had been more between them expressed in private.

?When we entered the Tear, the Sith were waiting for us in ambush. The Ebon Hawk never had a chance. Those of us here were fortunate to survive? Bastila and T3 did not.?

As he said it, the words sounded cold to Carth. Perhaps it was the fact that Bastila?s sacrifice had been in vain, their mission a failure. Or perhaps it was the growing sense of dread that the Sith were only keeping them alive to commit some great act of villainy, and then they all would soon join Bastila.

?But tell us, Darklighter, or Antillies, or whatever you?re calling yourself these days, how did you get to the Tear? Have you been a prisoner for the past ten years??


IC: Revan
Sith Detainment Cell, The Tear

?Ten years? Is that how much time has passed for the rest of the galaxy? Perhaps its been that long for me as well, though it is impossible for me to say for sure. This place that you call the Tear, it inhabitants have named the Hellscape. It is strange beyond compare. The very laws and constants of nature were conceived differently by its architect, though he was unable to sustain his creation, and it has since deteriorated into this nightmare. There are twists and knots in the fabric of spacetime, warping the flow of time and distorting our sense of its passage. You yourselves might have been here for several hours or several months already.

?As to my name, call me what you will. Rev, Revan, Kotor... it makes no difference to me anymore. As to how I got here, you already know that I set out for the Unknown Regions in the year 21,097 of the Galactic Republic. I began my search on the Sith homeworld of Ziost, which had been long deserted by the time my arrival. All the evidence I found indicated that the entire population was subject to a mass exodus immediately after the end of the Great Hyperspace War. I learned that Naga Sadow?s successor, a Sith Lord by the name of Adas, had been an admiral under Marka Ragnos whose fleet was tasked with exploration of the galactic edge for the future expansion of the Sith Empire. When his fleet fell out of contact with Ziost, Ludo Kressh began his campaign for increased isolation, eventually leading to the Great Hypersp

 

IC: Zayne Carrik
Sith Detainment Cell, The Tear

Zayne had been simply leaning against the wall of the cell trying to dose off in a desperate atempt for sleep when their Sith hosts were gratious enough to bring some of their new guests in for some social entertaining. They were four, two mailes and two femails. He quicly scaned his memories but he didn't manage to find any sighn of recognition regarding three of them but the forth... the forth's apperance made him almost jump out of his corner of the cell. It was Carth Onasi, one of his old friends.

Seing Carth instantly brought Zayne back in time for what it seemed ages. The memories overwelmed him; they were memories great past deeds, of love and friendship but also of pain. He had lost alot by leaving his friends, but he still taught it was for the best, having been the only way he could protect them at the time.

Raven suddenly finishing his speach awakened Zayne from his revery.
He got up and aproached Carth.

"Carth, its good to see you alive and well...as well as it can be expected though as we meet in such circumstances. The last time I herd anything about you was a few weeks before I actualy met Revan. I heard you're an admiral now. I belive congratulations are in order. Oh please forgive my lack of ospitality. My name is Zayne Carrick everione... pleased to meet you all. Please, do sit on this nice confortable floor that our hosts have so gratiously provided for us."

 

IC:Juhani
Sith cell, unknown area

?You wont take me alive!!!!!? Juhani exploded as she awoke her hand grabbing at where her lightsaber should be as she jumped up, Not finding her lightsaber she looked around at the cell in which everyone was imprisoned. Noticing the mission companions she bowed her head and set about figuring out who was still here. Looking through the haze that she had in her eyes she noticed Carth and some man calling himself Zayne. Then her eyes fell on Reven and it shocked her mind into clearing ?Reven???? she seemed perplexed as she awoke during the explanation that he gave.

She walked over to Carth and Reven ?So where are we? And how do we get out?? She looked at the cell closely trying to notice any weak points in its construction.

TAG:All

OOC:sorry for taking ages to post and for if I missed anyone

 

IC: atton Rand


As Atton regained his vision he noticed there were only five crew members in the cell. which in his mind left two options, either the remaining people were dead. His anger quickly began to rise with the realization that they were stuck in this place. he looked for someone to place the blam, and he found him. the reason they were all here, reavan.

"Oh ha ha ha, look there he is the glorious Revan. there he is the greatest soldier the republic has ever seen. stouck in a cell with a cathar, an over eccentric stranger, a former friend in carth and the general of course. not to mention o former murderer. well i hope you have a plan out of here, cause ireally don't wann stay in here for too long."



TAG: all

 

IC: Zayne Carrik

Zayne's attention was captured by the other man that he did not know. His remark was rude and unjust but given the situation and all that the new comers had been trough was understandable. Thus he decided to speak, if only to difuse the situation somewhat. They definetly did not need to be fighting among themselves.

Remember Master Jedi. "There is no emotion, there is peace." Don't let your anger cloud your judgement. I am certain that you joined the rescue attempt of your own acord, and as sorry as we are for what you've probably been trough and for your loss, it certanly wasn't our will. Besides, the last thing we are in need now is an argument among ourselves. Let's be rational about this and lets work together for a way out of here. Our main goal should stay unchanged... We have to find a way to escape and worn The Republic.

TAG: all

 

IC: Revan, Carth Onasi
Sith Detainment Cell, The Hellscape

Zayne was still talking of escape; Revan had been cautiously optimistic of the possibility when he had first been thrown in with Carrick, but after attempting every conceivable measure he had since realized the futility of such hope. Juhani was wasting her time feeling the walls and floor for some sort of an exit. Hadn?t she realized that he had already done so himself innumerable times and found nothing.

Still, Revan was not worried. Despite being the most powerful Force-user of his day there were still many challenges he was not powerful enough to overcome, and he knew it. In such instances he did not succumb to fear, but rather placed his trust in the Force. He did not believe that it was the Force?s will for them to die in this place; in due time it would free his friends and him.

Revan laughed to himself. Such musings were the reminiscent of the earliest teachings learned by younglings, and yet even the wisest of most Grand Masters had difficulty fully living by them. The more powerful a Jedi grew, the more he desired that the Force would work through him to accomplish its purposes. He himself certainly displayed such arrogance long before he set down the path of the Dark Side. Yet throughout the history of the Order, the strength of the Force was always most clearly seen through its servants? weakness. So Revan ignored the taunts from the unknown figure and was not ashamed.

?We must be patient. But now that I have told you my story, tell me, how did you know to find me here??

?Much has happened since you left, Darklighter. The Jedi have fractured, and with them the Republic. We were called together by a Mandalorian named Ergeron who claims you appointed him to reconstitute a bounty hunters? guild called the GenoHaradan.?

?And so I did, Carth, though I can certainly appreciate your hesitancy to believe him. Secrecy comes as naturally to Ergeron as breathing, and deception is his native tongue. These are among the very reasons I chose him for this task. Yet he has many admirable traits as well. He fights as honorably as his circumstances allow him to, yet rightfully places victory first and foremost. Yet he is not only an accomplished strategist, but a man of vision who knows what it is he fights for. He and I spoke for some time regarding our shared hopes for the Republic. But at the same time I sensed in him great resentment towards the Jedi.?

?Revan, do you think it?s possible that Ergeron sent us through the Tear in the hopes of removing the Jedi from the Galaxy. Bastila, Atris, and the Sunriders were all on the Ebon Hawk with us when we entered the Hellscape. We practically left the Galaxy devoid of anyone trained in the Force who could protect it if need be. In fact, other than a few Padawans on Dantooine, I know of only one Knight remaining, and he is currently in service to Ergeron.?

?This news is most disturbing. My thoughts had been focused on the possibility of a trap by the Sith to draw Loriana to this place. It had not occurred to me that your presence here could be instead part of a plot by the GenoHaradan.?

?Could it be that both are conspiring against us??

?If they are, their efforts aren?t coordinated. Ergeron might not have any love for the Jedi, but he is a devout believer in the Force. And while his lies might draw him sometimes towards the Dark Side, he abhors the Sith for embracing such darkness.?

?We must make every effort to leave this awful dimension and return to our realm at once so we can find out if he truly is a threat.? Carth could feel the tension and anxiety in his own voice as he spoke.

?Have faith, old friend. The Force shall always preserve a remnant of those who serve it. We Jedi have a prophecy that in the tim

 

IC: Carth Onasi
Temple of the Dark Gods, The Hellscape

If Revan wasn?t going to say anything, Carth decided he ought to speak up.

?I don?t know who you are, but let me tell you this: you might as well kill us now because we?ll never give in to the Dark Side!?

?As for whom we are, Adas has already told you: we are the gods of this world. We conceived of its existence long ago and fashioned it by our own might. We sustain it and rule it with absolute power. Here we are all-seeing, all-knowing, and almighty.

?We hail from the same galaxy that you yourselves now come from. The Tchuukthai to my left was known then as Vire, and to might right is the one called Oonorth. And if my name has not been stricken from the annals of history, you might know me as Volitus.

?But as for what we want, you are greatly mistaken. When these Sith stumbled across our realm, we took them as our subjects, as pawns to be used toward our own ends. But the Sith would never have sworn their allegiance had they known the truth which I am about to reveal to you: we are not incarnations or avatars of the Bogan, nor do we even serve the Dark Side. You Jedi resist the Dark Side and fight its followers, but we seek to destroy the Dark Side once and for all.?
Carth didn?t believe a word of it.

?I may not have been trained as a Jedi, but from everything I?ve ever learned the Dark Side is part of the Force.?

?I would not expect one uninitiated such as yourself to understand the subtlety of our teachings, though your Jedi companions would be able to tell you that there actually exist two separate Forces, the Greater Force and the Lesser. The Greater Force is transcendent, eternal, and sentient. No darkness has ever touched it. Out of nothing it created five elements and used them to form and fill your universe: spacetime, matter/energy, mind, the Lesser Force, and Quintessence. The last comprises all the moral and physical laws of the universe, as well as the eternal souls of all sentient beings.
?The Lesser Force, however, was the life-energy in all beings, known as the Living force, as well as ubiquitous energy field known as the Unifying Force. Originally, that was the only dichotomy present in the Lesser Force, for when it was first created there had been no Darkness in it.

?Then a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away there arose the first sentient beings, a race of immortals known as the Whills. They lived in perfect communion with the Greater Force and each other for a time. Upon their planet existed a portal, far different than the tear which brought you here, for where that was a rip you came through, their portal was a bridge between this world and the netherworld of the Greater Force. By this bridge it would transmit the knowledge of its will to them, and they would fulfill their destinies in unquestioning obedience. Then the day came after unknown eons when the Force summoned some of the elders among the Whills to pass through the portal into its world. But many among them refused their fates and openly rebelled for the first time. War between the immortals raged across the planet. Finally, the rebels seized the upper hand when they tried to destroy the bridge and free the universe once and for all from the tyranny of fate and providence. But they failed.

?Though the portal was greatly damaged, they were not able to close this creation off to the one who made it, and in trying to destroy the bridge they were forced to fundamentally alter the Quintessence of the universe. In doing so, they unknowingly covered all of existence in a shroud of darkness. Death and decay had entered into the grand equation, the Whills became mortal and corrupted, and for the first time their life-energy, the Lesser Force, became depraved by the Dark Side.

?Eventually the Whills spread out across the universe, settling new galaxies. Among them was my former master. When he took me as his Padawan, he was already ancient, even by the standards of the long-lived Whil

 

After long consideration I have come to the conclusion that my ideas regarding Knights of the Old Republic III were not properly suited for a role-playing game. I am therefore shutting down the game and will try to rework my ideas into a fanfic. I will post in this thread one final time next week revealing my intended plot points for the game.

 

OOC: I know I sort of fell out of the picture, and I apologize. Possibly any interested players could gather and discuss an RP still set in the time frame?

 

BLemelisk that sounds good I'll put my name down as interested, also Rev if you feel like it pm your overall ideas and I could take over GMing this cause I have done many a Role Play IRL as a gm and taken story ideas i have had and turned them into games.

 

I'll get the information to you tonight.

 

Here are the intended plot points that I forwarded to SniperHunter for those of you who are interested. However, if you intend to continue playing should he assume the duties of Game Master, then beware of major spoilers below...


Volitus

The final and greatest padawan ever trained by his legendary master. He could see further and more clearly into the future than any other being before or after him. Yet his gift was also his curse; he perceived his foreknowledge as impediment to his own free will. He eventually grew to view the absolute will of all sentient beings as the highest possible good, even more so than the benevolent providence of the Greater Force. At first he tried simply to create his own Universe, but had been unable to fully close it off from either the Dark Side or the Greater Force, as made evident by his continued visions of the future and the growing tears between the realms.

Thus, despite knowing that the ultimate Chosen One would succeed in destroying the Dark Side, Volitus became resolved to prevent this as it meant the restoration of the Bridge and the perpetuation of fate and destiny. It was his belief that if he could complete what the Whills had attempted when they damaged the Bridge that both the Shroud of Darkness would be lifted off the Quintessence of the Universe and absolute Free Will would be granted to sentient beings.

In this belief he is absolutely wrong. Were his success possible, all of existence would plunge into eons of darkness and chaos as it slowly and painfully devolved into non-being.


The Chosen One

The prophecy of the Chosen One has several partial fulfillments in addition to one ultimate fulfillment. Thus both Anakin and Loriana are types which foreshadow the final Chosen One. All derive their status from their unique conceptions. In Anakin?s case, he was conceived by midi-chlorians. In regards to Loriana, she was fathered by the Force-ghost of Ulic Qel-Droma shortly after his death. The penultimate Chosen One in that galaxy will be the embodiment of the Light Side of the life-Force there. The ultimate and universal Chosen One will be a Whill from their homeworld that will be the Greater Force incarnate. In addition to their conceptions, all Chosen Ones also possess the ability to directly manipulate Quintessence, which in turn can fundamentally alter aspects of the other four elements. This was how the Exile was able to create a wound in the force, and why Kreia needed her specifically to destroyer the Lesser Force. Such was also why Volitus require the Exile in order to destroy the Bridge.

Volitus? ability gave him foreknowledge of many of these details. He knew that a Chosen One was due to arise, and thus prompted Adas to engineer the Mandalorian Wars when he did in order to identify the individual in possession of such powers (thus the Council was right to suspect a greater, hidden threat). When the Sith interrogated the captured Revan, Oonorth was able to search his mind and confirmed to Volitus that Sunrider possessed the required powers. The growing rip between the realms allowed Volitus to perceive that she would soon come to him.


Bao-Dur

Prior to departing for the Unknown Regions, Revan had been unable to locate Bao-Dur to provide him with any instructions. After his discoveries on Ziost, Revan secretly embedded a message in T3?s memory, one which the droid itself was not even aware of, then left it aboard the Ebon Hawk when he joined Zayne at Malachor V. He programmed the astromech not to reveal its contents to anyone save for the Zabrak himself. Their fist time truly alone together came shortly after Sunrider had defeated the Sith triumvirate. The message passed on information regarding the approximate location of the Tear and Revan?s suspicions as to the Sith Empire?s sojourn there. Revan also gave specific instructions that regardless of his success, Bao-Dur was to locate the Tear himself and find a me

 

Just a quick question for all those people playing this, Do you want me to take over the GMing of this? or do you just want this to die and we could mabie start a different one?