Kobe's 81

Uhh, what?

First off, he said "arguably". And it can certainly be argued.

Secondly, SABONIS!?! Huh? I mean, I know the guy had tremendous passing skills, a great outside shot, and a decent post game too. But SABONIS?!? C'mon man, you don't take Arvydas over prime Shaq. You just don't. Shaq dominated the NBA for a solid 5 years, and won 3 chips over that span. The guy's an icon. He averaged something like 38/18 in an entire Finals series.

And it's not even the stats that make Shaq great. Hell, you want the honest truth? Shaq is still in my top ten best players in the league. And there's a distinct reason for that. The guy just makes the game easier. Yes, moreso than Steve Nash, as funny as that sounds. Shaq draws so many doubles, and is such a good passer out of the post, that as long as he has even marginal teammates, he will win his fair share of games. Prime examples of Damon Jones, Devean George, Fisher, Fox, anyone he's played with, knows how easy Shaq makes the game for them.

The other three can obviously be argued. Wilt with the stats, Hakeem with the dominance over a time where the center position was arguably the deepest position ever, and Kareem with his longevity. And how you left Russ out of that I have no idea.

But Sabonis? C'mon man, you know better than that.

 

Ah hmmm....[image=http://eeo.gsfc.nasa.gov/women/images/female.gif]

And maybe it's not fair to call Shaq the best center in history, but there are plenty of people that will argue that he is. Either way, he's certainly the best center of his era and I haven't seen any new rings on Kobe's finger, nor trips to the NBA Finals, since Shaq was driven out. I don't even think Jackson would have gone back to the Lakers, if it weren't for Jeanie Buss. If he really wanted to make a comeback, there were plenty of other teams that would have been happy to have him. That's really what I was trying to point out.

 

lol @ Sabonis being better than Shaq

 

Haha, my mistake Athena.

 

Did you know that Shaq has never led the league in rebounding? Inexcusable, given his size and skills. He could have averaged 20-25 a game if he had put his mind to it.

 

That would frustrate the heck out of me, if he was on my team. Especially considering that Shaq has spent the first half of the last three or four seasons getting in shape, when he should have been staying in shape in the offseason. In most cases this has led to unnecessary injuries that has limited his play.

 

It's not all about bulk though. You have to be able to get into the position, you have to have hops, you have to have the basketball IQ to prdict where the ball's going to go as soon as it leaves the shooter's hand. KG's skinny as hell, and not the strongest guy in the league, but he's incredibly smart, which gives him more rebounds than someone like Sam Dalembert or Diop. They just aren't smart enough, and while comparing them to Shaq is a stretch, Shaq was never the smartest guy in the league, and that shows in his rebounding skills.

However, with that said, it's obvious Shaq could've done a hell of a lot more in all aspects of the game, for a much longer period of time, had he had any motivation whatsoever. But once he won the first chip, it just went downhill. Just didn't want it as much anymore. Don't forget though, he did average over 13 boards 3 times, and over 12 boards 5 times, so it's not like he was pitiful.

 

Pitiful? Of course not. But he could have approached Chamberlain, and he didn't come remotely close, except in titles (which is deceptive, because Wilt had Russell in his path).

 

yes, you have to be increibly smart to know how to box out.

 

Watch this...

yes, you have to be increibly smart to know how to make the right pass.
yes, you have to be increibly smart to know how to play team defense.
yes, you have to be increibly smart to know how to find the open space on offense.

See, I can do it too. Except you do have to be fairly smart - basketball-wise to know how to box out properly, and get after the ball. Do you honestly think KG's at the top in rebounding every year because he's really strong, or because he can jump really high?

And KW, no one's going to approach Wilt or Bill when it comes to rebounding. Just won't happen. Different pace, different size and athletisism of players, higher skill level in the league (on average), just different era. You can't expect ANYONE, no matter how big they are, to average 24 or 25 rebounds a game in this day and age.

 

I really think that we'll never really know if there was a rape or not. To assume otherwise is foolish.

 

Wow, didn't see that post by Athena. That's ridiculous. Basically as ridiculous as me claiming that absolutely no sexual interraction went on in that hotel room between Kobe and the girl.

You really think she asked him to stop? What's your logic behind that? Her telling of the story? What about Kobe's? Don't fool yourself by thinking she didn't have a hell of a lot to gain by lying (not saying that she did).
For all we know, it was an elaborate scheme that had been set up for quite a while. Or maybe not.

Fact is, no one knows what went on there, and no one will know any time soon.

 

Kobe rapes women.

 

Actually, no it can't be argued. Even attempting to comprehend arguments on why Shaq > Wilt makes anyone making the argument look like a fool. Sorry, but there's dozens of NBA records that prove that Wilt>>>> Shaq. In actuality comparing Jordan to Wilt is pretty unfair as well, but we'll keep this confined to the centers. Russel was consistently dominated by Wilt in his day, he gets a pass because of the great teams he played on but he doesn't bring enough offensively to the table to be considered a top five center. Top ten for sure though.

Definitely might wanna check out some video of the guy in the 80s if you get the chance. Something tells me you wouldn't be loling so much

 

videos from the 80's =/= NBA success

 

Records are a crap argument. Almost all stats from the sixties were inflated because of the much much much higher pace the game was played at back then.

 

Let me put it this way. Comparing Arvydas to Shaq is WAY worse than comparing Shaq to Wilt. And don't get me wrong, I obviously think Wilt was the better player. But an argument can be made for Shaq. A much better one than could be made for Sabonis (who I have seen play - latter end of his career and highlight videos - shame he didn't come to the L sooner).

Like NYJ just said, stats don't mean nearly as much considering the way games were played back then. The stats were inflated, simple as that. You can't honestly think that Wilt would average even close to 50/26 in this day and age. Again, he'd be great, but not to that extreme extent.

As for Russell, well, that's just insane. Not top five? I guess you have Sabonis over him as well, right? Does defense not count anymore? Or do we judge players solely on their offensive skillsets and capabilities, ignoring basketball IQ, hustle, and defense along the way? Russ was easily the great defensive force to ever play the game. He was also the greatest winner ever to play the game. And the greatest leader to ever play the game. Coincidence? To not include a guy who won 11 titles in 13 years, WHILE Wilt was playing, just doesn't make sense. And it's not like the guy couldn't score. Let's not confuse him with Ben Wallace here. He averaged 15 point/game over the course of his career, and consistently upped his scoring come playoff time. But scoring just wasn't something that needed to be done on Russ's teams. They were runners, and Bill was the force that set the fastbreak in motion. Every rebound he secured, he'd look up the floor first and foremost, to look for guys like Cousy and Heinsohn running the break in the early days, and Havlicek and Jones coming in strong a little later on. That was his job. But don't think he couldn't score. He just didn't have to with the teams he played on. He obviously wasn't as proficient at it as Wilt, or Kareem, or Shaq, but he was still a solid post player with a decent jumper.

And anyone would've been dominated by Wilt in his prime. But at the same time, no one could've guarded Shaq the way he was playing against the Pacers in the 2000 Finals. 38/18 average I believe. In THIS era. Just dominant.

And I haven't even picked on another one of your selections as "definately" better than Shaq. Hakeem was as smooth a center as we might ever see, but according to accomplishments and stats, Shaq has his number. It's close, but Shaq scored more than Hakeem did, for longer than Hakeem did, and won more than Hakeem did. Hakeem was obviously the better defender, but that doesn't give Dream the advantage, it only evens the playing field from Shaq's offensive advantage. It was even at best for Hakeem.

My list looks like this...

Wilt
Russ
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem

I don't have a problem with people putting Dream over Diesel, but it's far from a "definate".