Kyle Katarn's Tale (Dark Forces Articles by Abel & Jason)

Nope. The potentium actually says there's no dark side of the force. That's the greatest, and worst mistake that could ever be made regarding the force. That's why it is as dangerous as it is idiotic Note that it is a direct contradiction of the truth about the force - from GL himself, but in the storyline, it's a bunch of people who're dead wrong.

Dualty is not right/wrong. It's the truth - that the force has a good and an evil side, and while the Jedi do the right thing rejecting the evil, the Sith do the opposite for gaining power and for their selfish desires. GL, the Jedi, the Sith etc. all know the truth. The potentium, is simply a few people who are delusional, completely wrong about the force and on the path to being seduced and twisted due to their ignorance. And going against GL is not possible unless it's a contradiction (GL overrides it) or fan fiction.

Potentium - delusional madmen/madwomen who arrogantly think that those who know the truth are wrong (which includes GL outside of the storyline, the countless Jedi and Sith who have seen the rean danger of the dark side of the force), and somehow think that because they make themselves blind, the truth is going to change. It's the quick and easy path to fall and be twisted. It's the perfect example of someone (for whatever reason) closing their eyes in broad daylight and saying that it's night that there's no light outside. They think there's no light, and they force themselves to think so by shutting their eyes, while reality is seen all around them.

 

ignorance is of the dark side, jedifreak^^ you are ignorant right now. because a true Jedi would seek a way to incorporate both views into the greater perspective. well.. lets celebrate ThrawnMcEwok


EDIT: The Potentium says "there is no dark side", but you have to look upon the meaning behind the saying. They mean, if you want the right things, do the right things and concentrate on the greater good, everything is light, even the dark side. anakin skywalker proves it, because he is the choosen one of the light"jedi" side, and brings balance to the force, by doing dark things: destroying the jedi, joining the sith, killing. without it, palpatine wouldn´t have been stopped. so.. if something is dark or light depends on the point of view. everything is good, if you see darkness only as a way to show the galaxy what it still has to learn, and oneself has to learn. a mirror of your soul.

if understanding the potentium as just saying NO DARK SIDE = NO EVIL, that would indeed be wrong and stupid. they mean the evil that exists has a positive effect on the galaxy, if you look at it with a greater perspective. they try to see both sides, light and dark, and find the right path, through both of them, while the jedi only use light, ignoring the dark, condamning it.

 

LijoT: no, the duality is between right and wrong; the "Dark Side" and "Light Side" are merely terms used to define their reflections in the Force...

However, we cannot be perfect in our actions, and reality is a very complex thing...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

no, the duality is between right and wrong; the "Dark Side" and "Light Side" are merely terms used to define their reflections in the Force...

Note that they both "need to be there", and together are they the concept known as the force, like how the Tao is the Yin and the Yang.

However, we cannot be perfect in our actions, and reality is a very complex thing...

Which indicates that dark and light are necessary from the very beginning (as GL said), and is part of the principle of the universe Kinda like how life needs midichlorians to exist (GL, Qui-Gonn).

EDIT: The Potentium says "there is no dark side", but you have to look upon the meaning behind the saying. They mean, if you want the right things, do the right things and concentrate on the greater good, everything is light, even the dark side.

Nope that's not what they mean. Look at the direct statements of Vergere and the Potentium explanation in the dark side source book. They mean, there's no dark side of the force - they think so. By thinking that there's no dark side of the force, they think they could do whatever they want, use the dark emotions, tap into the dark side - while thinking that there's no such thing.

anakin skywalker proves it, because he is the choosen one of the light"jedi" side, and brings balance to the force, by doing dark things: destroying the jedi, joining the sith, killing.

Again, nope. He brings balance to the force by killing the Emperor and dying himself, another thing GL has said before. He made the worst mistake by going dark which destroyed the balance, and corrects it later which included his own death.

without it, palpatine wouldn´t have been stopped.

He could've killed Palpatine because he had the chance, but he opted to join the evil than to destroy it, which resulted in the destruction of the balance. He corrects it later.

so.. if something is dark or light depends on the point of view. everything is good, if you see darkness only as a way to show the galaxy what it still has to learn, and oneself has to learn. a mirror of your soul.

No. Dark and Light are the essential sides of the force from the direct, clear statements of GL, and what's shown in the 25+ year history of Star Wars. The evil side offers power while draining you and causing your downfall. Also, when evil begins to take over, it shifts the balance of the force. The opposites of nature in the entity that GL formed as the basis for the concept of the force, the 2 sides which need to be there, which are essential.

if understanding the potentium as just saying NO DARK SIDE = NO EVIL, that would indeed be wrong and stupid.

Saying NO DARK SIDE when there is DARK SIDE = a lot more wrong and stupid than saying no dark side = no evil. It's not just a contradiction, but silly. As stupid as closing your eyes and saying in the day, that there's no light outside.

they mean the evil that exists has a positive effect on the galaxy, if you look at it with a greater perspective.

No they mean there's no such thing as the dark side of the force, and that they could use the negative emotions which are used to summon the dark side, by making themselves delusional. There's no way to look at it with a greater perspective, unless you ignore the sourcebook explanations and go directly against GL.

they try to see both sides, light and dark, and find the right path, through both of them, while the jedi only use light, ignoring the dark, condamning it.

No they don't. They think there's no side, especially no dark side of the force, which cannot get any more wrong. By ignoring the existance of it, they are already wrong, and they invite the negative emotions thinking that they could do whatever they want without worrying about being twisted or seduced, but the truth is that they are wrong. And Jedi do not ignore the dark...Ignoring the dark is what the potentium heretics do. Jedi guard against the dark, knowing it, acknowledging its dangers, the seduction and twis

 

LijoT: Note that they both "need to be there", and together are they the concept known as the force, like how the Tao is the Yin and the Yang.

Frankly - no. It's a way of expressing something; that doesn't make it an absolute truth. There are other POVs, that also express the nature of reality. Each has advantages and disadvantages; most are attempts to deal with more complex things, and most sincerely held...

Which indicates that dark and light are necessary from the very beginning (as GL said), and is part of the principle of the universe Kinda like how life needs midichlorians to exist (GL, Qui-Gonn).

Which brings us onto how George keeps changing his mind...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I understand what you're saying, but when it comes to Star Wars, his creation by mixing all those ideas become the rule. Outside of it we could certainly say it's a way of expressing it. The concept of the force is the representation of his personal belief into his creation, kinda like his own religion by mixing the ideas of the God and devil, Yin and Yang etc, with mythological and fantasy ideas thrown into the mix. That's why while in the real world his view is just one among many, but when it comes to his fictional world it becomes the basis, the same rule that the Star Wars follows regarding the canon/continuity Outside of Star Wars it's all about what we think and feel.

As for Kyle Katarn, well the game wouldn't have been a hit if he wasn't allowed to go around blasting everyone with lightning, choking/throwing them away etc..Who wouldn't love to do all those stuff in the game?

 

LijoT: um, again, I disagree: nowhere does George say 'this is the only way of looking at it'; and any workable understanding of SW metaphysics must be based on evidence, not dogma...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Wait, but what about Kyle? So this thread went from Abel's Kyle article on WoTC.com to a philosphical discussion on what REALLY is this siisy Force nonsense all about. Pfft, intangibles such as "Light" and Dark", just let me kill something and I don't care whatever trippy force vibes its gonna give off

 

Thrawn - SW metaphysics and everything and anything in SW is based on what GL says and what's shown in the movies. It's the rule of canon/continuity with the levels followed by the EU and those in charge, where GL and the movies are the basis and overrides anything else which contradicts it. Evidence doesn't get any bigger than GL himself. The dogma creates the evidence.

GL doesn't have to say "this is the only way of looking at it"...because not only is it obvious, it's his creation and his world...Those working under him have already said it's the only way of looking at it - canon/continuity, with G-level, C-level with sub levels etc, with Leland Chee managing the whole thing. You "can" look at it differently, contradicting GL and the other sources, but that's not official Star Wars. We have the freedom to contradict GL, go against him/the movies, but it's just that it's not official Star Wars - or canon.

Just because I don't like games being considered canon doesn't mean they aren't, because they are, and Kyle is canon - as canon as any C-level character by that rule. And in Star Wars everything follows GL and the movies, everything, once again as explained by the LFL staff in charge. I could go tell Rowling that she's wrong about her creation..and that what I think is right..while I have the freedom to do so, it wouldn't make any sense at all. In Star Wars, contradicting GL is not possible, because the moment a contradiction of that level occurs, the higher source overrides it.

If all this wasn't the case, there wouldn't be Chee doing this in LFL, there wouldn't be canon levels and the database, anything and everything would be possible, the infinities would be as valid as anything else, and it would be utter chaos..but fortunately there are these rules, and it's not possible to go against what GL has said or those set rules, unless it is fan fiction.


Mandalore - how true, poor Kyle got lost among all this On the subject, I would love for the Dark Forces game series to be remade with better graphics and gameplay, and a lot of people who never had the pleasure of playing the original games would certainly become fans of Kyle. Though I don't like the idea of games being part of canon (though they are), I'm a big fan of Kyle.

 

LijoT: SW metaphysics and everything and anything in SW is based on what GL says and what's shown in the movies. It's the rule of canon/continuity with the levels followed by the EU and those in charge, where GL and the movies are the basis and overrides anything else which contradicts it. Evidence doesn't get any bigger than GL himself. The dogma creates the evidence.

George says a lot of things. He's also said that the movies are based on Artoo's account, given a century after RotJ. And dogma cannot create evidence; what George says is only an approximation of what he means, and his conscious intent isn't the only factor influencing what he does; I'd argue very strongly that what he does takes priority...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

The core of the movie was all the same that he had in his mind, he's made minor changes here and there in its execution of course, especially because it took a very long time and it's a part of making a movie. Since he's the creator he's free to reshape it of course, and he's said how he's done it to his heart's content to the point where he's satisfied, and is sealing it off.

And no, what GL says is actually the "fact" in Star Wars, and is the highest source in Star Wars along with the movies that he created. It's the creator's word about his creation. The "gospel" in Star Wars, also called G-level canon, consists of anything that GL says and the movies, ie there's no bigger evidence than the highest source of evidence which is the dogma itself. Even the deleted scenes from the movies are part of this. What he says and what he does (regarding Star Wars) are what's called G. It's not my opinion, but the very law of the EU as explained by Sue Rostini and Leland Chee of LFL (those in charge).

 

I think you both should move this conversation elsewhere, as this thread is about the Kyle Katarn articles, *not* your interpretations of the Force.

 

I wasn't trying to make a discussion on it, only responding to the posts with quotes from GL and the LFL policy about it, off topic nonetheless.

Anyway, I don't think Kyle is going to make any decent appearance in the novels. I think at most it would be a cameo role like in TUF. I don't know why I feel this way, but it seems like there're many people who don't like to see a game character in a big role. Even then, occassional cameo roles would be quite good to show that he "is" there. That would be satisfying for those of us who don't play the miniature games and the likes

 

A Dark Horse series would satisfy me. It will never happen, of course, but it'd be terrific to see an ongoing series.

Hell, I'd love to see all of Abel's stuff get turned into actual stories some day.

 

Huh, WotC updated the RPG site and the Dark Forces Saga isn't up. And the Minis section hasn't been updated at all. Maybe they're waiting for something or its going to be an every-other week special. We did get Planet Hoppers back, though.

 

LijoT: His core movie plot was all the same, he's only made minor changes here and there in its execution, especially because it took a very long time. Since he's the creator he's free to reshape it of course, and he's said how he's done it to his heart's content to the point where he's satisfied, and is sealing it off.

Um, no. George has changed, juggled, rearranged, and radically revised over the years... in doing this he's probably trying to work out what he's really wanting to say as much as 'changing his mind', sure - but that in itself only stresses that what he's doing is an attempt to express things he can't fully articulate...

And no, what GL says is actually the "fact" in Star Wars, and is the highest source in Star Wars along with the movies that he created. It's the creator's word about his creation. It's not my opinion, but the very law of the EU as explained by Sue Rostini and Leland Chee of LFL (those in charge).

If someone could give me a rational justification for that 'law', I'd be happier to accept this claim. So far as I can see, it's an arid, artificial system, the validity of which is seirously questioned both by internal evidence from the movies and George's recent statement about their narrative POV...

I also can't help wonder if all these statements about canon, from George and others, aren't themselves part of a deliberate game - perhaps not entirely serious, perhaps something we should be questioning...

I'm happy to agree to disagree with you, though...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Jort wrote:
?I am amazed. There was simply so much good and interesting stuff in it I won't comment on it or this post would be too long. Can't wait for the other parts! ?

Thanks Jort! They?re comin. I was surprised WOTC didn?t post any this week, but I guess they?re handing em out piecemeal.

burrie wrote:
?All right, now this is just beyond awesome.?

Many thanks, burrie.

?I'm very surprised that Jan just might've commisioned Alpha Red, but somehow, it does seem a bit in-character for her. She'd practically do anything to defeat the Yuuzhan Vong.?

Love does funny things to a person. Ask Anakin Skywalker. Combine Jan?s potentially ruthless personality as seen in the Dark Forces novellas with a threat the magnitude of the Vong invasion, and you?ve possibly got a recipe for getting Jan back into terrorist mode.

?Still, none of the information from the Kyle/Jan Tales Storyline is in there, is it??

The Imperial Remnant world Ord Sedra from ?Equals and Opposites? gets referenced. On Jace?s suggestion, we placed it in the Clacis Sector, which up until now had basically been a free-floating sector.

?Just who is Halagad Ventor? The name sounds vaguely familiar.?

Ahem? (points to TFN tag)

CeiranHarmony wrote:
?all those neat references and connections and mentions and everything you tied together, added in favor of nice chars who just have too less screentime in EU.?

If we don?t show them love, who will? I?ve been waiting for a good opportunity to use Halagad and I felt giving Kyle and Shira some history together would be a good set up for Kyle?s post-Vong Sithy investigations.

?We both have an original rpg that is only very little tied to Star Wars. If you could mention a chaacter, planet or name of it in one of your next articles? that might be great. but I would understand, if not.?

It breaks my heart to say CH, but unfortunately, under LFL contract, I can?t knowingly reference works not officially sanctioned by Lucasfilm. The clause is there in order to avoid confusion and, yes, potential lawsuits.

?ps: another question: Is anything planned about the Anzati? I really miss them, besides Dannik Jerriko and the Clone Wars Anzati issues there is still too few material about those superb beings. an article would be nice, if you are interested^^?

I like the Anzati too, especially Dannik in the ?Soup?s On? story from Tales From the Mos Eisley Cantina. Real slick read. While I don?t have an Anzati article per se in mind, if I can get my editors to agree to resurrect one of the Star Wars pieces I have on the backburner, there?s some Anzat action in store. We?ll have to wait and see.

MarcusP2 wrote:
?Though I find it unlikely Kyle would be captured, he far too awesome for that ?

Heh heh. I agree, that part?s the biggest stretch.

Tam_Elgrin wrote:
?Kriff me twice, this stuff is good. ?

Twice?

Thanks Tam. We aim to entertain. Stay tuned, there?s more coming soon.

Take care,
Abel

 

Now I think I'll actually go out and buy some RPG material (assuming I can find any, of course)

 

It's this kind of content and effort that is often sorely lacking from the Star Wars powers-that-be. If people as dedicated as you guys had written The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, I'd probably feel like I'd spent my money well (and not gotten into a car accident for no reason to boot... *grumble*).

 

The Imperial Remnant world Ord Sedra from ?Equals and Opposites? gets referenced. On Jace?s suggestion, we placed it in the Clacis Sector, which up until now had basically been a free-floating sector.

Megageek alert: My biggest love is Star Wars geography, and those sectors with no identified star systems in them drive me crazy. So every project I get to do, I try to assign some planets to the "empty" ones. (Though of course ya gotta come up with some new systems each time out. Because what's a Star Wars read without a new planet or two?)

More stuff to come....

Jace

 

but when do we get the rest? next week? this weekend? next month? can you dig any dates up from wizards?

 

Ahem? (points to TFN tag)

Nonetheless, once again, great work on the article. Katarn brought me into Star Wars as it is(who needs them silly movies for that, anyway), and this is a bloody great summary of all his exploits.

 

Ignore Leeland.