ST Kylo Ren and Rey in VIII and IX (See new guidelines on page 228)

I suppose the issue I am having is that I don't believe in censorship of imagination in fiction. There are some movies out there that I think should have never been made but it's usually just my reaction that they are pointless movies with no soul. And even that is subjective because I'm sure somewhere out there you could find someone who thinks it's a wonderful movie and likes it. That's great. It's great that there is such a variety that people can find things they like. I wouldn't want it any other way.

Since other people are creating all of this entertainment I think they have a right to create it as they want, not as I want. If I don't like something I just move away from it in favor of something I like better. Sometimes I'll even come back to it later. And I think that's fair while I think restricting people's creativity too much in what is supposed to be a creative industry (I mean, ideally) is unfair. And I think over time we would all suffer for it. If we can only tell "socially acceptable" stories I think we have gone to a dangerous place. Social conformity scares the crap out of me.

As for understanding, I don't feel understanding from the other side either. And when I read angry posts and "I HATE THIS" I feel angry and hateful, not sympathetic. And I don't know what to do about that. I've not had this problem on an internet forum before.

I was taking that comment in the context of a fictional universe (there is undeniably a chunk of female fandom intrigued by villains).

But in general I find that generalizations about girls and bad boys are unhelpful and vague and something you can never stop hearing about especially if you are female. And it's always been the case... It's very patriarchal in its origins. Part of it is about the welfare of girls but part of it is about male competition and control of girls. It's double-edged like so many things women get to put up with. It simultaneously aids and stabs you, basically. And as one who has never been aided by it but only stabbed by it, I'm sick to death of it these useless warnings.

Information that I have found useful has never been generalizations about "bad boys," of which there are many different kinds in fiction and in real life. Reading books however with actual psychology about "emotional vampires" or whatever I do find helpful. There's no vague useless generalization, but defined psychology and patterns that have been observed.

And actually since I watched Frozen in response to this thread last month, that movie gave a far more useful piece of information about a sort of "dangerous man." Mr. Prince Charming is all too charming and he is interested in everything Anna is interested in (like all of it, instantaneously). They quickly realize they are soulmates and decide to get married. Once Mr. Prince Charming has everything under his control he drops the act (the glib and superficial charm), revealing a sociopath. There are countless books on warning signs for spotting sociopaths like this, or how people like this begin in a relationship.

"Bad boy" is not a meaningful or informative way to communicate such a pattern, or warn girls about "dangerous men." Communicating the pattern itself is how to pass the information and it doesn't involve this weird social micromanaging of girls as though they can do nothing right and have to be hounded left and right about the dangers of "bad boys."

Interestingly, Frozen's Mr. Prince Charming is not a "bad boy" at all, not on the surface. He is a white knight in shining armor, he is well-mannered, he is charming and well liked, he is a moral leader, and so on. And that's the reality of a lot of sociopaths from what I've read. They mimic other people's feelings. They don't feel the range of feelings that others do but from an early age they've known this and the successful ones find out how to feign all of that, to look "normal" and to appear as what others want. They are often not easy to spot because a lot of them have a very good act. Their victims fall prey to them not because they are seeking out toxic relationships, but often because they are seeking healthy relationships and this person seems awesome at first.

The Star Wars "equivalent" is Sheev Palpatine. But he is not there to be an example about how to spot sociopaths. He is an archetype in a mythological universe, symbolic of Satan. Because he represents the temptation of the dark side *inside ourselves*.

I wasn't really interested in any patriarchal lessons GL wanted to impart about "bad boys" (i.e. Anakin) since he gave Padme like no real reason for falling in love with Anakin in the first place. Her character is indeed a prop in Anakin's story.

However, what Padme did try to do is fix Anakin, which is the same thing Rey is apparently trying to do in TLJ. Rey learns it's not that simple and she has to shut Kylo out because of all of his terrible actions. I don't have a problem with that

In Kylo's case I feel like we all know he is a jerk because he starts out TFA murdering a village of people and striking down an unarmed man, and then later he kills his father. He's like obviously a villain. Never does he present himself as "a great guy." And a lot of the interest in him is because Star Wars can give us an uplifting redemption tale and some viewers really want to see another one only in a romantic context. So if that happens, I am not sure why it's the Star Wars abuse advocacy story. But maybe I'll have more thoughts after I actually watch the movie.

 

TLJ review

This is my movie. Loved it, the visuals, the soundtrack, the emotions. I sat waiting through what seemed like a million coming attractions (Battle Angel Alita? Ok. Rampage??? From the old arcade game? Why??) and watching it in the theater opening night with other fans to see their reactions is great. Most overheard comments: awesome movie.

So to the nitty gritty: Reylo.

A+, seriously, the only complaint I have is I wanted more of it. The force bond stuff is so well done and AD and DR play off each other so well. The combination of emotions and humor- Kylo running down the hall looking for where Rey was, lol- really humanized both of them. That hand touch scene, the close up as they just barely grazed fingers gazing into each other's eyes. Reylo is endgame, sorry I don't make the rules. I can't wait to see the visions they had of each other, and I really do think we will see them and it will be the same vision interpreted differently. With Luke letting down Rey and her vision of Kylo you can really tell how much she really believes in her course of action. And when Kylo killed Snoke the whole theater cheered, that fight was amazing, both of them looking out for each other and fighting in sync. When Kylo is proposing you can tell he is trying to make Rey see his reasoning, bringing up her insecurities about her past. She couldn't let go of it, it held her back and yet she truly knew all along- Kylo voiced her own thoughts that she just couldn't. His "join me, please" so desperate, he truly believes in his vision where Rey was standing by his side and wants it to come true.

But of course she rejects him, unable to follow the path he is on. Like Jane rejecting Rochester, she leaves him metaphorically howling into the moors. But that last shot, where the bond between them opens and Rey shuts the door on him, leaving him alone and slumped over as the dice face from his fingers...yeah, Kylo is getting everything he thought he wanted. But that won't be what he needs.

And that will be Rey.

...

All in all, loved it. Can't wait for that FoD episode with Rey and Kylo because I am sure it will be more Force bond stuff. And that force bond stuff was cut from the movie- you felt the length. And that the Hope message spread throughout, and the continual talk of Kylo's conflict and saving him will play a big part of episode 9.

An edited version of my full review with the Reylo bits

 

Yeah, you don't need to try and tell me what is worth waiting for or not. I can make that decision for myself, so maybe back off your assumptions about the story being set in stone the way you think will happen.

I mean, if you want to play pick apart my examples you could actually use my examples. Last I checked I put out Snape, not Peter Pettigrew. You know, the guy Harry names one of his sons after?

And Vegeta does not have infinite chances- both times he got wished back the wish wasn't meant to bring him back. But it isn't really about my examples, I could sit here all night giving examples and you or someone else will find some nitpick on how they aren't exactly alike as if that totally negates my point somehow.

You want an answer to a question that only matters to you. One that is asked on the assumption that it's basic premises is true.

Lol, you mean when Luke barged in like his naughty nephew climbed through Rey's window and he found them in bed together?

Hahaha, I doubt you are feeling any kind of sorrow over us reylos.

 

I just saw the movie. A romance, attraction, whatever its called...was it there? It's not quite clear to me, so the way I sorted it out was what if both Kylo and Rey were female, or both were male...would I still think there was physical/emotional attraction in their interactions? If the lines were the same then, yes my immediate reaction would have been "Wow, Star Wars just had its first onscreen same-sex relationship!'

But upon saying that my interpretation that whatever attraction there is definitely more from Kylo's end than Rey's. Rey finds out an enormous misunderstanding played a part in Kylo's fall, Luke's adamant that he's not saving the Resistance, she has her vision of Ben returning to the light, and then its like a light bulb turns on in her head and she reacts along the lines of "Ben can be turned ergo the Resistance can be saved!"

At least in my takeaway from the film I see parallels between Rey's lines to Kylo and Luke's lines to Darth Vader in Jedi. She says things like "I feel the conflict within you." No really. In fact the entire scene between Snoke, Rey, and Kylo reads like Rian Johnson wanted to do the entire Return of the Jedi on the Death Star scene for scene, but subvert the end(it's even pretty blatant, Kylo and Rey are in an elevator when he's taking her to Snoke). Whereas Kylo's lines read something like 'I want to be evil, but I also don't want to be alone!'

Romance? Eh... Ben might not even know what romance is. But being human he still feels the need for human companionship.

 

Tbh, the unresolved sexual tension is undeniable. You don't film two hands touching that way to be platonic. Plus, they hit you over the head shirtless scene.

Kylo comes across as desperately wanting his vision of Rey standing beside him to come true, imo even more so that Rey. However, Rey wouldn't be so disappointed in Kylo if she didn't feel something as well. It isn't just the goals of bringing order or saving the resistance to either of them, Rey wants Ben just as Kylo wants Rey. They want each other, but they also want their goals.

 

In regards to women liking bad boys or whatever, and that being bad...

It's fiction. It's fantasy. Men and women both fantasize about things they would never really want in real life. People want Rey and Kylo together in a movie. In a fictional sense. They don't ship people like that in real life. Human sexuality and fantasy is far more complex than being just a black and white topic. People can be perfectly fine with two characters, with clear and undeniable sexual chemistry, being together in a movie, regardless of their sides in the war. That doesn't mean they'd want two real life people to be together under the same circumstances.

 

I just read this about WHAT Kylo and Rey are and feel like it nails everything 100%; her parentage, their connection, what it means...

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/...what-exactly-is-the-rey-kylo-ren-relationship

If anyone is interested in giving it a read. They articulated the thoughts I have on it much better than I have.

 

Peter Pettigrew is a representation of a man promised redemption in Harry Potter... only for him to die anticlimactically. Redemption is never guarenteed. Severus Snape, as J.K. Rowling insisted, did not die as a hero. Only a tragic man with a lost lenore that he will never have. After all, he didn't quite got over his hatred for James Potter and Harry. It's a selfish love for Lily to the very end. He reaffirms it by making it clear he's only defending Harry for the memory of Lily and Lily alone. He was all grey and no saint. Rowling states that Snape's bullying of Harry is unforgivable. It was wrong for him to do even if he himself was bullied as a child. J.K. Rowling had to scale back on the Severus naming thing. Because apparently, in The Cursed Child, Harry Potter admits that there things that Albus and Servus has done that doesn't make them the saints he would like to portray.

Vegeta, based on his popularity, will come back again and again until the cows come home. Everyone does at some point Dragon Balls. Death is inconsequential. And I recall, he was parodied on DragonBall Z Abridged as still being an evil person with everyone blindingly thinking he has turned good when he clearly hasn't changed his personality. But then again, this is the same series where our main hero would risk destroying the entire multiverse just have a good, challenging fight.

As for the question, it's simple. There is a thing called the Moral Event Horizon. The line varies from person to person depending on their tolerance of evil acts. When the line is crossed, it's the point of no return and all sympathies are lost. You can tell if it's crossed when people start abandoning ship or support. Many here has already abandoned hope for Kylo Ren's redemption. If not in TFA for the murder of Han Solo, then certainly in TLJ for trying to destroy the Resistance after killing Supreme Leader Snoke.

Really, the only redemption I see him having is the same way as Vader. Redemption leads to death.

 

Shadao

I understand, all this sounds correct to you. But to me it sounds ridiculous.

Look, take my examples or leave them. I am not here to defend my positions on DBZ, HP or any other fandom. I already had enough of Frozen.

I don't see things the way you do. I am not concerned with fictional crimes as some universal standard of anything. I want the conflict and failure and accomplishment of characters. Their crimes are a means to that end, just as a hero's good deed are.

And Kylo is full of conflict still. (although I can't see why you are counting Kylo killing Snoke as something against him???) if anything TLJ just seemed to create more Kylo fans, he was getting cheers in my theater.

Really, whether or not he gets a redemption by death is for IX to tackle. However, I gotta say I was fairly right on the money on my fundamental predictions from TFA compared to you, so I am gonna go with my gut.

As an aside, apparently AD was on Colbert tonight and they played kissy face with Kylo and Rey action figures!

And bow down to MH who described Rey/Kylo as romantic tension, after nearly saying sexual tension.

 

Shadao I like how nonchalantly she side-stepped your entirely apt comparison.

 

A couple of points to keep in mind (warnings):

- Everyone needs, AGAIN, to discuss the topic and NOT other users.

- Nothing is confirmed so definitively in TLJ one way or the other on the Reylo topic as to be considered "canon". What's canon is not up for debate, and if you try arguing about canon you will be breaking forum rules. The movie gives very different impressions to people on both sides of the debate; leave it at that and do not bait each other with absolute statements.

 

Okay, I went into this after loving a lot of the spoilers thinking I would be let down, but i wasn't. That said, I think it would have more impact on me emotionally had I been unspoiled. But I'm weak, I was spoiled and it still didn't ruin my love of this film

I'll share my thoughts on the Kylo/Rey dynamic (and how it is woven with his family), but I'm putting it behind a spoiler cut so if you don't want to read a tl;dr take on this film.

I guess it down to that this film is about the consequences of bad choices. It is the penultimate episode of what is likely the Skywalker story. So of course it will be darkest before the dawn. And that means whoever is the Skywalker in play needs to fail spectacularly (Hello Ben, you'll do nicely in that role) before righting everything with the universe. That said, as much as my heart wanted Ben to flip sides in this film, my head prevailed and he only became more miserable instead.

That said, IX will likely be about making amends for mistakes and paying the proverbial piper

Spoiler

Luke: With the spoiler that he tried to murder his nephew, I was really angry earlier in the week. Luke, though he was the great Jedi blah blah blah, has always been a Meh character to me. So when I heard that he stood over Ben while the kid slept and was a hair's breadth from executing him instead of reaching out and helping him. He was supposed to guide him. Leia had trusted Luke with her son's life and that Luke not only betrayed Ben, but also betrayed his sister. But then I saw the film, and Luke has been punishing himself for this mistake for years. On screen it is clear that he loves his nephew and he finally gets it. Instead of giving up, he's going to be part of that concerted effort that will arise to help Ben find his way home with a kick in the pants with some tough love.

What resonated with me was his admission that the Jedi became tainted by this sense of being gods, for their hubris that they were above everything, for having the blindspot that good intentions trained the monster that became Darth Vader. And while he was talking about the Jedi of Obi-Wan's era, it became clear that he had made the exact same mistakes that the generation before him did. He became so wrapped up in the purity tests of what he thought made a Jedi, that he had lost the forest through the trees. It reminded me a lot of the 2016 Democratic Party where the purity tests overshadowed everything, the party started eating its young and collapsed under its own hubris a year ago November.

Unfortunately his nephew became the greatest casualty. Yet by the end of the film, I found myself loving Luke more than I ever had. He finally accepted the consequences of his piss poor decision when it came to Ben. But he rounded the corner when he stopped wallowing in his own-self pity and took action. When she handed the Falcon's dice to Leia, it was such a strong message to me that family matters more than religious purity. He was entering the fray to save not the Resistance, but rather the remnants of his family, to not give up hope and the need for sacrifice. Handing those dice to Leia, he was saying he was going to make the same decision as Han--to die if he had to in order to nudge his nephew in a new direction. He wasn't mocking Kylo when he said if Kylo strikes him down, he'll be with Kylo forever just like his father. Ghost can haunt. But they can also be spirit guides. When he said, "See you around, kid," he was likely calling Kylo a nickname from his childhood (a twists on Han calling Luke "kid") that would penetrate past the Kylo Ren facade. So I am very hopeful we see Luke as a spirit guide that will help--not save--Kylo make the right decisions.

Which brings us to Luke's theology. He finally gets it. When you heft the Force like a weapon, you lose. Rather the adept is the instrument of the Force. He was using the Force as a weapon when he decided he was going to be Ben's judge, jury and executioner. And I think it was that experience that likely helped him change his philosophy. He saw himself as a god, but he failed the test and destroyed the boy in front of him. His afterlife will be about making those amends.
Oh, and I loved how he told both Rey and Kylo "Everything you just said is wrong.
Kylo/Ben: Many can't get past his tone with Rey in the elevator. But I see it a bit of Kylo struggling with his inner Ben. Kylo is the embodiment of the entitlement he had developed--first cultivated by Luke, the grown with Snoke. It was Kylo asserting dominance, yet Ben trying to hold on to her for dear life. The Kylo tells her "She's not part of the story" but the Ben in him is looking to her to be the Eliza of Hamilton, begging her to write herself into the narrative.
But for Ben Solo it ultimately comes down to a deep cutting, long lasting sense of abandonment that has wounded him and has scarred him more than anything. I tried to put myself in Ben's shoes--young adult waking to an uncle (Who has Hamill adorably reminded us that likely babysat him, and held him on his knee at one point) who he thought loved him standing over him with a lightsaber drawn
And I love that Rian gave us both of their memories of how it transpired and how they varied. Kylo remembers an evil, vengeful-appearing monster with its teeth bared standing over him (Contrasted to Luke's memory that was filled with regret and that very powerful shot of how scared Ben was when he woke up.). His memory is one of betrayal, of fight or flight. Of simply survival. (And in this shot Ben is not terrified, he appears angry because he becomes the angry Kylo Ren in order to suppress the fear. It's his coping mechanism..) In that moment his family rejected him. Did he think his mother sent him there? (Does Leia even know this event even happened?????)
That said, the fact that his parents were absent in this narrative tells me he thought they had turned their back on him and simply didn't care if he lived or died. This is something that is hard for someone to come back from that. So when he's "talking all M33N" to Rey, the one comment that has stuck with me since last night was when he spat at her, "Your family threw you away!" He wasn't just saying it to Rey, he was finally verbalizing what had happen to him. In his eyes--they threw him away. Well, until his father stood on a bridge reminding him that his parents loved and missed him. He has been alone. Absolutely and utterly alone. So he hides himself way behind a mask, swathes himself in black so that other's cannot cut his skin with their actions. He trusted people in the past, and the people in his life were jagged glass that tore him to shreds. But that doesn't stop him from hoping. He wants his mother to love him, even though he thinks she threw him away like garbage. It's why he doesn't fire on her. It's why he literally begs Rey to join him. His heart may be hardened, but there is still a flicker of that hope his mother talks about all the time clinging to him.
That's why the ungloving scene is so powerful (and so painful to see his reaction to being rejected.) He's terrified in that interaction as well, Rey is the one who reaches out. He's the cornered animal. Yet he is willing to take a risk, and he removes the armor as if he's willing to take that chance even if it wounds him. He thinks he's found someone that won't hurt him. He's bared his belly and is taking an enormous emotional risk. But ultimately she hurts him just like the others in his life. She turns down his proposal to share power. And when he wakes after the battle, she has abandoned him like every single other person he has dared to love in his life. He has been thrown away again. He garbage once again. So he does what he does best--bury that hurt and become a monster once again, because the only thing that can drown out the pain is anger.
His consequence for his bad choice is realizing in the quest for power to replace love, he probably loses everything, complete with a pissed-off red headed general already staging a military coup . Right now he is the Supreme Leader. But I suspect it will become an empire of dirt and he will have absolutely nothing at some point in IX. So ultimately he will have to decide if he wants to cling to the power that Kylo wants, or does he realize nothing matters with out love? I don't think he wants to destroy Rey. He's hurt, he's angry, and he's still reeling. But there were so many times that he was on his knees before her, either in visions or in Snoke's throne room. He is gobsmacked with her. He wants her to be is queen (wife, girlfriend, whatever. The boy was asking for the whole cow and not just a glass of milk.) She wants him to be just her Ben, an nobody like herself.
I don't think he's screwed beyond redemption. That said, he has a lot of work to do.
Rose's comment about we don't kill those we hate , we save those we love is something I really really hope JJ Abrams revisits. Fighting just causes pain. Love is restorative. So it is really fitting that after Kylo went full monster trying to strike down his uncle, baring teeth and all (God bless you, Adam Driver, you're an amazing actor but you have only one, predictable angry face. You hunch over, you bare your teeth and you flex your platysma muscle in your neck) that he kneels before his bonded vision of Rey almost with regret, definitely sadness. He was an idiot, and he threw it all away. Have fun leading. Let me cue up the song, What Comes Next from Hamilton. Did not see Renperor Ren coming, but I'm actually okay with it. Bring on the backstabbing politics of palace intrigue and that worm Hux. (Meanwhile Kylux shippers are all excited as well.)
Rey: I really do think Kylo is telling the truth. Her parents were dirtbags. Kylo is cutting and hurtful because he doesn't candy coat things. He tells the truth. And I think she's always known her parents were dirtbags, but she she as a child with all of a child's magical thinking created a myth that her parents were going to magically return and rescue her like the princess locked in the tower. It's easier to create a story than admit your parents were addicts that loved a fix more than they loved you. So what's her poor decision: not tempering realism with her unflagging idealism. It was in line with her magical thinking when it came to thinking her parents were determined. Her poor choices stem from thinking like a child and not like a woman. Same school of thought came into play when she showed up on the crabby old man's lawn thinking he'd just drop everything and teach her.
But that doesn't stop Rey from loving and caring deeply. And trusting. She was willing to trust Kylo enough to hop in an escape pod and go right into the belly of the beast. She knew he'd be waiting for her. Where she went wrong was thinking he'd just hop in the car and go for a ride with her and go back to Mom's in time for dinner. She thought she could saunter in and act like a crowbar and pry Kylo away from Snoke and everything would be right as rain. Ideas are cheap, but the work is actually hard.
Yet she's seen the scared boy that Kylo has tried to kill. He's still there ple for affection. But until then she has to deal with the assbag in black. And she isn't going to be to codependent girlfriend that enable him to get drunk on power and the Dark Side. So for every person that says she's allowing herself to be subjected to an abusive relationship, when she slammed the Falcon's door, she is proving that she is not.
But what makes Rey remarkable is she's had a ****** life and her optimism has not been killed. Perhaps that is why it hurts so much when Kylo doesn't leave with her. She put the cart in front of the horse and wanted redemption without the work and struggle that goes into atonement and a life changing reversal of mindset.
Rey is the future of the Jedi. There's one (okay there's two) potential students waiting out there to be taught--the stable boy and the big tall jerk in black. She is understanding the post-Jedi theology of the Force. Be the change that the Force wants you to be. I think she understand that the mantle is on her. Rey is truly the Last Jedi. But she won't be a Jedi in the traditional sense. She needs to integrate her light and dark. And it will be up to her whether she wants to impart that knowledge on to others.
Leia: Would have loved to seen more of her, but this wasn't her story. Thought the flying through space was lame. Less is sometimes more, and just having her survive being frozen in space would have been enough to show that the Force was with her. She was passing the baton to Poe. Wish she'd be around in IX to do that, but her lessons will still ring true. Her biggest consequence was, perhaps, hinging on hope and not enough action when it comes to her son. and part of that isn't her fault. I truly believe she had no knowledge of Luke trying to kill Ben. At the end of the film, it was a kick it the teeth when she said, "My son is gone." But it is an echo to what Luke said in ROTJ. So when a Skywalker family member says that, you know that the screwed up Skywalker isn't truly gone and is waiting for someone to help him. She was funny, she was poignant and she was the proxy for the general audience about to give up on Ben when Luke comes to say goodbye and offer hope.

 

Okay, I went into this after loving a lot of the spoilers thinking I would be let down, but i wasn't. That said, I think it would have more impact on me emotionally had I been unspoiled. But I'm weak, I was spoiled and it still didn't ruin my love of this film

I'll share my thoughts on the Kylo/Rey dynamic (and how it is woven with his family), but I'm putting it behind a spoiler cut so if you don't want to read a tl;dr take on this film.

I guess it down to that this film is about the consequences of bad choices. It is the penultimate episode of what is likely the Skywalker story. So of course it will be darkest before the dawn. And that means whoever is the Skywalker in play needs to fail spectacularly (Hello Ben, you'll do nicely in that role) before righting everything with the universe. That said, as much as my heart wanted Ben to flip sides in this film, my head prevailed and he only became more miserable instead.

That said, IX will likely be about making amends for mistakes and paying the proverbial piper

Spoiler

Luke: With the spoiler that he tried to murder his nephew, I was really angry earlier in the week. Luke, though he was the great Jedi blah blah blah, has always been a Meh character to me. So when I heard that he stood over Ben while the kid slept and was a hair's breadth from executing him instead of reaching out and helping him. He was supposed to guide him. Leia had trusted Luke with her son's life and that Luke not only betrayed Ben, but also betrayed his sister. But then I saw the film, and Luke has been punishing himself for this mistake for years. On screen it is clear that he loves his nephew and he finally gets it. Instead of giving up, he's going to be part of that concerted effort that will arise to help Ben find his way home with a kick in the pants with some tough love.

What resonated with me was his admission that the Jedi became tainted by this sense of being gods, for their hubris that they were above everything, for having the blindspot that good intentions trained the monster that became Darth Vader. And while he was talking about the Jedi of Obi-Wan's era, it became clear that he had made the exact same mistakes that the generation before him did. He became so wrapped up in the purity tests of what he thought made a Jedi, that he had lost the forest through the trees. It reminded me a lot of the 2016 Democratic Party where the purity tests overshadowed everything, the party started eating its young and collapsed under its own hubris a year ago November.

Unfortunately his nephew became the greatest casualty. Yet by the end of the film, I found myself loving Luke more than I ever had. He finally accepted the consequences of his piss poor decision when it came to Ben. But he rounded the corner when he stopped wallowing in his own-self pity and took action. When she handed the Falcon's dice to Leia, it was such a strong message to me that family matters more than religious purity. He was entering the fray to save not the Resistance, but rather the remnants of his family, to not give up hope and the need for sacrifice. Handing those dice to Leia, he was saying he was going to make the same decision as Han--to die if he had to in order to nudge his nephew in a new direction. He wasn't mocking Kylo when he said if Kylo strikes him down, he'll be with Kylo forever just like his father. Ghost can haunt. But they can also be spirit guides. When he said, "See you around, kid," he was likely calling Kylo a nickname from his childhood (a twists on Han calling Luke "kid") that would penetrate past the Kylo Ren facade. So I am very hopeful we see Luke as a spirit guide that will help--not save--Kylo make the right decisions.

Which brings us to Luke's theology. He finally gets it. When you heft the Force like a weapon, you lose. Rather the adept is the instrument of the Force. He was using the Force as a weapon when he decided he was going to be Ben's judge, jury and executioner. And I think it was that experience that likely helped him change his philosophy. He saw himself as a god, but he failed the test and destroyed the boy in front of him. His afterlife will be about making those amends.
Oh, and I loved how he told both Rey and Kylo "Everything you just said is wrong.
Kylo/Ben: Many can't get past his tone with Rey in the elevator. But I see it a bit of Kylo struggling with his inner Ben. Kylo is the embodiment of the entitlement he had developed--first cultivated by Luke, the grown with Snoke. It was Kylo asserting dominance, yet Ben trying to hold on to her for dear life. The Kylo tells her "She's not part of the story" but the Ben in him is looking to her to be the Eliza of Hamilton, begging her to write herself into the narrative.
But for Ben Solo it ultimately comes down to a deep cutting, long lasting sense of abandonment that has wounded him and has scarred him more than anything. I tried to put myself in Ben's shoes--young adult waking to an uncle (Who has Hamill adorably reminded us that likely babysat him, and held him on his knee at one point) who he thought loved him standing over him with a lightsaber drawn
And I love that Rian gave us both of their memories of how it transpired and how they varied. Kylo remembers an evil, vengeful-appearing monster with its teeth bared standing over him (Contrasted to Luke's memory that was filled with regret and that very powerful shot of how scared Ben was when he woke up.). His memory is one of betrayal, of fight or flight. Of simply survival. (And in this shot Ben is not terrified, he appears angry because he becomes the angry Kylo Ren in order to suppress the fear. It's his coping mechanism..) In that moment his family rejected him. Did he think his mother sent him there? (Does Leia even know this event even happened?????)
That said, the fact that his parents were absent in this narrative tells me he thought they had turned their back on him and simply didn't care if he lived or died. This is something that is hard for someone to come back from that. So when he's "talking all M33N" to Rey, the one comment that has stuck with me since last night was when he spat at her, "Your family threw you away!" He wasn't just saying it to Rey, he was finally verbalizing what had happen to him. In his eyes--they threw him away. Well, until his father stood on a bridge reminding him that his parents loved and missed him. He has been alone. Absolutely and utterly alone. So he hides himself way behind a mask, swathes himself in black so that other's cannot cut his skin with their actions. He trusted people in the past, and the people in his life were jagged glass that tore him to shreds. But that doesn't stop him from hoping. He wants his mother to love him, even though he thinks she threw him away like garbage. It's why he doesn't fire on her. It's why he literally begs Rey to join him. His heart may be hardened, but there is still a flicker of that hope his mother talks about all the time clinging to him.
That's why the ungloving scene is so powerful (and so painful to see his reaction to being rejected.) He's terrified in that interaction as well, Rey is the one who reaches out. He's the cornered animal. Yet he is willing to take a risk, and he removes the armor as if he's willing to take that chance even if it wounds him. He thinks he's found someone that won't hurt him. He's bared his belly and is taking an enormous emotional risk. But ultimately she hurts him just like the others in his life. She turns down his proposal to share power. And when he wakes after the battle, she has abandoned him like every single other person he has dared to love in his life. He has been thrown away again. He garbage once again. So he does what he does best--bury that hurt and become a monster once again, because the only thing that can drown out the pain is anger.
His consequence for his bad choice is realizing in the quest for power to replace love, he probably loses everything, complete with a pissed-off red headed general already staging a military coup . Right now he is the Supreme Leader. But I suspect it will become an empire of dirt and he will have absolutely nothing at some point in IX. So ultimately he will have to decide if he wants to cling to the power that Kylo wants, or does he realize nothing matters with out love? I don't think he wants to destroy Rey. He's hurt, he's angry, and he's still reeling. But there were so many times that he was on his knees before her, either in visions or in Snoke's throne room. He is gobsmacked with her. He wants her to be is queen (wife, girlfriend, whatever. The boy was asking for the whole cow and not just a glass of milk.) She wants him to be just her Ben, an nobody like herself.
I don't think he's screwed beyond redemption. That said, he has a lot of work to do.
Rose's comment about we don't kill those we hate , we save those we love is something I really really hope JJ Abrams revisits. Fighting just causes pain. Love is restorative. So it is really fitting that after Kylo went full monster trying to strike down his uncle, baring teeth and all (God bless you, Adam Driver, you're an amazing actor but you have only one, predictable angry face. You hunch over, you bare your teeth and you flex your platysma muscle in your neck) that he kneels before his bonded vision of Rey almost with regret, definitely sadness. He was an idiot, and he threw it all away. Have fun leading. Let me cue up the song, What Comes Next from Hamilton. Did not see Renperor Ren coming, but I'm actually okay with it. Bring on the backstabbing politics of palace intrigue and that worm Hux. (Meanwhile Kylux shippers are all excited as well.)
Rey: I really do think Kylo is telling the truth. Her parents were dirtbags. Kylo is cutting and hurtful because he doesn't candy coat things. He tells the truth. And I think she's always known her parents were dirtbags, but she she as a child with all of a child's magical thinking created a myth that her parents were going to magically return and rescue her like the princess locked in the tower. It's easier to create a story than admit your parents were addicts that loved a fix more than they loved you. So what's her poor decision: not tempering realism with her unflagging idealism. It was in line with her magical thinking when it came to thinking her parents were determined. Her poor choices stem from thinking like a child and not like a woman. Same school of thought came into play when she showed up on the crabby old man's lawn thinking he'd just drop everything and teach her.
But that doesn't stop Rey from loving and caring deeply. And trusting. She was willing to trust Kylo enough to hop in an escape pod and go right into the belly of the beast. She knew he'd be waiting for her. Where she went wrong was thinking he'd just hop in the car and go for a ride with her and go back to Mom's in time for dinner. She thought she could saunter in and act like a crowbar and pry Kylo away from Snoke and everything would be right as rain. Ideas are cheap, but the work is actually hard.
Yet she's seen the scared boy that Kylo has tried to kill. He's still there ple for affection. But until then she has to deal with the assbag in black. And she isn't going to be to codependent girlfriend that enable him to get drunk on power and the Dark Side. So for every person that says she's allowing herself to be subjected to an abusive relationship, when she slammed the Falcon's door, she is proving that she is not.
But what makes Rey remarkable is she's had a ****** life and her optimism has not been killed. Perhaps that is why it hurts so much when Kylo doesn't leave with her. She put the cart in front of the horse and wanted redemption without the work and struggle that goes into atonement and a life changing reversal of mindset.
Rey is the future of the Jedi. There's one (okay there's two) potential students waiting out there to be taught--the stable boy and the big tall jerk in black. She is understanding the post-Jedi theology of the Force. Be the change that the Force wants you to be. I think she understand that the mantle is on her. Rey is truly the Last Jedi. But she won't be a Jedi in the traditional sense. She needs to integrate her light and dark. And it will be up to her whether she wants to impart that knowledge on to others.
Leia: Would have loved to seen more of her, but this wasn't her story. Thought the flying through space was lame. Less is sometimes more, and just having her survive being frozen in space would have been enough to show that the Force was with her. She was passing the baton to Poe. Wish she'd be around in IX to do that, but her lessons will still ring true. Her biggest consequence was, perhaps, hinging on hope and not enough action when it comes to her son. and part of that isn't her fault. I truly believe she had no knowledge of Luke trying to kill Ben. At the end of the film, it was a kick it the teeth when she said, "My son is gone." But it is an echo to what Luke said in ROTJ. So when a Skywalker family member says that, you know that the screwed up Skywalker isn't truly gone and is waiting for someone to help him. She was funny, she was poignant and she was the proxy for the general audience about to give up on Ben when Luke comes to say goodbye and offer hope.

 

Just got back from a screening and here's my take on Rey/Kylo....

It Is definitely hinted at and Adam and Daisy have great onscreen chemistry, by the end of them film I felt the door for Kylo's redemption and Reylo was left wide open and what confirmed it for me was Luke's words. Leia say she's given up on Ben and Luke says something along the lines of no one is beyond redemption, and also Rey and Kylo still have the bond after Snoke's dead. On another note did anyone think it weird that they included a scene with Poe and Rey meeting? Someone in another thread mentioned it and said how unlikely it'd be for them not to meet after Starkiller in TFA but after seeing the film I can't help but speculate that they included it for a Poe/Rey pairing.

 

Going to throw some thoughts in here on this. While I do think there's a mirror with Rey and Ben, and clearly a connection there, I didn't see the romantic connection everyone else seems to be seeing. From the get go when I was watching the moments between them I saw more friendship then love, and a sense of understanding. But the music choices to me sounded more like the score that JW used in PT when Obi Wan and Anakin were together, or when it was Qui Gon and Obi Wan or Luke and Obi Wan. This choice of music, to not pick the Princess and the Smuggler or the one that was used for Padme and Anakin, was deliberate in my book. Also, the fact that she was acting like an embaressed sibling over blushing when he had his shirt off, etc. There were some weird moments, and keep in mind it's a artificial connection made by Snoke, or so he claims. Honestly it felt more like, especially when she was talking to him in the elevator and in the throne room, when Luke was talking to Vader. The care there wasn't her feeling some sense of devotion to him, but probably one for Leia. She knows now that he is Leia's son and for Rey family is everything. I have a feeling that what we were seeing there was from Ben's POV rather then Rays. We never really get her perspective when it's with him, it's always from his, she's narrating to him, we're never given a moment in her mind. It's the reverse when it comes to Her and Luke, that's from her POV rather then his.

The two people I think they're really trying to mirror here though are Ben and Poe. I mean look at them both. Poe and Ben both have similar ways of thinking and acting. They both care deeply about Leia, as Ben chose not to attack, and Poe was worried about Leia to the point of making wrong moves. Poe also clearly looks up to her, and sees her as a mother figure, and there's the fact that he acts more like her son then Ben does.

There's also the fact that, and a lot of people ignored this, but this is some deliberate filming that goes back to the OT. Luke wakes up Leia from her coma. We also have seen Leia sense Luke long before we knew they were siblings. Cut to Poe being knocked out but waking up in a freak out the moment Rey get's hit by Snoke, and...to add to that, through the film, he's the one that she's been connected to by the Beacon, Not Leia or Finn, it's been Poe's life signs that keep that beacon ablaze, and, to add to it, that beacon is called as a candle to light the way home. Something that Rey needs. You also have the I know moment between them, and it's kind of clear that they are setting up something for the next movie. Probably the idea that Rey is going to start having feelings for Poe since he's going to remind her a lot about both Finn and Ben in his own way. He's kind of reckless but not stupid. He's willing to take risks but also knows when to hold back. He's kind and caring and wants to do what's right and deeply cares for his friends and will do anything for them.

 

Well I think they filmed the moment then cut it from TFA for various reasons. Either running time or they wanted to focus more on Rey leaving to deal with Luke and Leia's parting. But yes, it very much seems like they're heading for a Poe/Rey/Ben situation since Leia's treat Poe as a son at the moment and he's going to be Leader.

 

Glad I'm not the only one, can't imagine leaving the Poe/Rey scene in for no reason other than for them to meet and it not be some set up but I also feel this way about the shirtless Kylo scene. Nobody at the screening I went to laughed when Rey told him to cover himself up, it was taken as a more serious moment by the crowd and by me. They did things in this film that hinted at Rey/Kylo, why Rian chose to do it I have no idea because I'm of the opinion now that Rian did what ever the hell he wanted just like JJ will do in 9. Rey's parentage was teased and set up as a big mystery in TFA by JJ and thrown to the side by Rian, basically saying it doesn't matter unless Kylo was lying to Rey about her parents.

 

Vanity Fair did a Reylo writeup .. interesting.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...t-jedi-reylo-do-kylo-and-rey-fall-in-love-sex

 

I don’t think Poe will turn into anything. I guess I don’t really know, but I don’t think they’d make her part of a love triangle. She means more than that. Her and Kylo are direct consequences of one another.

 

Betcha nobody thought of this.

What if Rey and Kylo are actually one in the same! Well sort of.


What if the minute Kylo (Ben) began to be tapped by the dark side, the Force responded by creating Rey. The Force finds a way. Two halves of the light and dark? They are actually kinds of like siblings but more like two souls of the same person. Would be interesting in the light of all things unexpected.

For those who have been claiming victory and feel like Reylo was destined to be, remember that those of us feeling like she was Luke or Leia's daughter discussed all the suggestions and hints. I'd like to be the first to say that any hints and suggestions toward "Reylo" in the regards of a couple or romance are equally subject for high scrutiny even in the light of what has now come to pass.

Two split souls born to different parents. The Force apparently doesn't just happen to show up in someone randomly. I suspect a decent portion of IX will be spent on Rey trying to find out more about her past than whatever TLJ says.

 

LMAO this dynamic completely ruined Rey as a character turning her into a mindless dolt for much of the film. Very unfortunate all those little girls who looked up to her in TFA have to see this and will probably think gaslighting is romantic.

 

I think they are one and the same in the sense that they are basically a yin-yang symbol. I haven't seen the movie still but I have gathered a lot of information. Rey seems to be the light side with a bit of dark while Kylo is the dark side with a bit of light. Each of them is looking at the tiny bit in the other that matches their side and thinking they can turn the other one because that is there. They are acting as though they are separate entities in this and it doesn't work.

--

Anyway I think that IX needs a good Force quest that both Rey and Kylo are in pursuit of and can fight over (maybe - I just began this speculation). I assume there will be a time jump and this will be what brings them back in contact. The thing they are questing after can be something that to Kylo means ultimate power so he must have it. To Rey it means the same (a weapon that no one should have).

And somehow in this a balance emerges...

Really I'm getting the feeling that the tone of TLJ will be dark in this way like one is trapped underwater. A springy spritely tone would be nice for IX. Something more magical than TFA.

 

ooooookayyyy. After seeing this, I'd like to change my mind. I don't think kylo ren is gonna be redeemed. I dunno what they're gonna do, but no. The whole "luke thought about killing his nephew" scene played out differently than I expected. Its still a dumb scene since they completely missed the point of luke's character in ROTJ, but it underlines the fact that ben had already turned. So ben, who'd already given himself to the darkside, felt betrayed because his uncle sensed that he was in league with a jobber? That doesn't make much sense from kylo's POV. Anyways, yeah he seems totally beyond the point of any redemption. I'm not sure what they're gonna do regarding the skywalker legacy. Unless they pull some cheezy nonsense where rey and finn are like "...I'm a skywalker!" "yeah...yeah I'm a skywalker too.". Then all those stable kids do the same.

 

Yeah, yeah...that would be um...totally stupid *crumbles up my idea for a fourth skytrilogy*

 

I think the skywalkers are dead and should stay dead given the state of Kylo Ren’s monstrosity. Just kill this family so the galaxy can have 2 seconds of peace.