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ST Kylo Ren and Rey in VIII and IX (See new guidelines on page 228)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by What Girl, May 14, 2016.

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  1. starocean90

    starocean90 Chosen One star 8

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    Feb 19, 2014
    but your assumption Kylo will get redeemed in TLJ. Nothing that we know even points to that, he's still the antagonist of VIII. Even if he gets redemption I don't expect it to be TLJ more likely to be in IX and at that point the Last Jedi would still not be about him. Besides who thinks a mass murdering psycho who killed the other Jedis should even be allowed anywhere near other Jedi? You think those rumors of Kylo goes to Ahch-To is for fun he's not, he's there as a villain and in TFA he wants to find Luke to kill him and end the Jedi once and for all.
     
  2. BlurryUFOs

    BlurryUFOs Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 24, 2016
    What Girl eehh, I just read my last post and it comes off a little aggressive. i'm sorry about that.
    whenever someone in the finn thread posts a theory that's kind of grand, everyone jumps in and shoots it down. like dang can i have some fun? its just a speculation!
    I don't want to do that here regardless of how personally horrific i find it. and we know rey and kylo will have an interesting relationship going forward so let me rephrase it:
    even if kylo were redeemed, why would he become a Jedi? what makes you think he would WANT to be a Jedi even?


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  3. What Girl

    What Girl Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016

    He gets referred to as a fallen Jedi (by Pablo and other sources) which makes me think he received all the training but then chose a different path. So, in my opinion, if he turns back to the light side of the Force, he'll be a Jedi.

    He feels a pull to the light; the dark side seems to only cause him pain and conflict. I think he wants to leave Snoke and desert the First Order, but he doesn't see how he can after everything he's done.
     
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  4. OZQUAD44

    OZQUAD44 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 20, 2015
    I know this question was not directed at me, but my thoughts on this are the return of the Jedi, is a state of the nation rather than a reference to one person.

    By that I mean, the evil dark side users responsible for the destruction of the jedi have been vanquish, and the Jedi order can/has returned.

    And so it had...... until Kylo killed them all off again. This time the last Jedi may infact be a reference to one particular Jedi. Luke.

    How will Luke save the galaxy this time around. The resistance is weak, the first Oder have destroyed the republic, and the dark side users have the upper hand. Luke's got his hands full this time, he's going to need some help.....

    Enter the dragon.... my title for EP9 .... he he he.


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  5. Korr Sella

    Korr Sella Jedi Knight star 1

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    Aug 1, 2016
    Kylo was never a Jedi, Han called him an apprentice. Choosing a different path = mass murder, torture, terrorism, killing your own father even when he was offering the chance to come back to the light on a platter.
     
  6. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 4, 2006
    Star Wars Rebels...Ezra and Maul gained a connection after using Sith and Jedi Holocrons. A connection that allowed Maul to track Ezra throughout the galaxy. Harry Potter and Voldemort is another one. Mina Harker and Dracula in the original novel. Fringe and other such shows have episodes where one of the heroes is linked to a murderer/serial killer. Kreia and the Exile from KOTOR 2, Blackarachnia and Tarantulus from Beast Wars to name a few.
     
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  7. nonesuch

    nonesuch Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 18, 2015
    Wrong thread! Sorry!
     
  8. IncessantRamblings

    IncessantRamblings Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 20, 2016
    I'm glad to see more people picking up on the Ezra/Maul connection.... When I mentioned it previously I was told the only connection between Rey & Kylo would be familial. (And Maul was also determined to be Ezra's 'teacher'.)
     
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  9. ladygrey45

    ladygrey45 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 30, 2015
    yeah I just dont see Kylo getting redeemed, or dating Rey they are deff related.
     
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  10. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 4, 2006
    Even if they are not related I don't, at present, see them becoming affectionate towards one another.

    Something Adarm Driver said

    Adam described Kylo as a religious fanatic and the thing about a fanatic is that they can feel bad about their actions but do them anyone because "It's what had to be done."

    If all three do spend time together, and Rey and Kylo Ren share a connection similar to the one Ezra and Maul shared, what is likely to happen is that Rey sees in Kylo just how easy it is to fall, when you deal in absolutes. Anakin fell out of fear of losing his loved ones. Kylo fears not being as strong as Vader, which, at best, suggests he honestly feels the galaxy needs a strong singular hand to guide it or it will descend into chaos. A conclusion he may have reached due to his travels/training with Uncle Luke. Luke's role may be to help Rey understand how dogmatic the Jedi became during the Old Republic, while Kylo shows her the danger of fanatical thinking, and cutting ones self off from others.
     
  11. What Girl

    What Girl Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016

    I really don't get the impression that Ben "fell easily" to the dark side at all, though. He was targeted by an evil presence since in the womb, and it wasn't until early adulthood that he turned. If anything, this says a lot about how much light there actually is in Ben, that he was able to resist Snoke for that long despite the constant torment and manipulation. Even after falling, Kylo still feels a pull to the light, and Rey senses the conflict in him. If they spend time together, I don't think it's going to be about using Kylo's personal tragedy as some kind of a moral teaching example for Rey when she was never targeted like he was.
     
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  12. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

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    Oct 31, 2014
    yeah, Rey was not targeted by Snoke, but she was million miles away from a happy life or happy childhood. She spent her life in poverty and slavery. That would be enough reasons to go dark, but she resisted. ;)
     
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  13. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 4, 2006
    Considering Adam Drivers own comments on the subject I disagree, especially when you add in Pablo's comments on personal responsibility. Snoke may have been after Ben...but he, unlike Rey and Finn had people pulling him in the other direction.In fact Finn is one of the reasons I have little sympathy for Ben....since Finn was literally raised by the FO since birth and still managed to make the right decision when the time came. Ben Solo had at least three people in his life showing him a better way but in the end he choose to follow Snoke.
     
  14. What Girl

    What Girl Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016
    If Kylo had zero accountability then there'd be nothing to forgive or redeem. Obviously he has since made terrible choices, but he was clearly influenced by a very powerful dark side force. Not to mention he feels trapped since there is literally nowhere for him to hide from Snoke.

    I don't view Rey's situation as comparable; in her case, she grew up entirely alone. No family but also no evil whispers in her head.

    OK let me lay out the key differences here. Finn was able to steal a ship and get out. After that, he was on his own, he was basically free to go and do what he wanted, and he ultimately chose to join the Resistance since, like him, they are against the First Order.

    As for Ben, the character you have no sympathy for? Even if he physically deserts the First Order, this does not mean he is free. At all. Snoke will still be there in his head. It is not as simple as taking off on a ship.

    I believe Kylo feels well and truly trapped on the dark side, and until he's shown some sign of hope that Snoke can be destroyed, he will likely not change his current allegiance, which is shaky at best.


    Which indicates to me that Snoke is far more powerful than he appears since he ultimately succeeded in tearing Ben away from his loved ones.
     
  15. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    I disagree. Snoke may have influenced Ben...but there's no sign he's directly manipulating him via mind control. Ben made a choice to follow Snoke and he did it apparently of his own free will (hence the comment about personal responsibility). Rey was in Ben's mind afterall and all she saw was a fear of not being as strong as Vader...not a fear of being manipulated by Snoke.

    It's not a question of SNoke's power so much as Ben's weakness. Whatever temptations Snoke threw Ben's way, they were countered by Luke, Leia and Han's example and love.

    This is why I have no sympathy for Ben. Ben had a counter to Snoke to the temptation of darkness and he CHOSE to walk that path anyways. Finn....raised by that same Darkness saw if for the lie it is and walked away from it the first chance he got. Let ME make it clear. Finn was taught from day one that the FO and Snoke are right...turns his back on them. Ben...taught by Leia, Han and Luke...embraces that darkness. Worse for Ben, Finn didn't think the FO could be beaten but he left them anyways...and when he saw how far their evil would go...he took a stand and fought them...even went back into their base to rescue the first friend he'd made outside the FO. Ben may feel the pull of the light...but he's getting real good at ignoring it in favor of the darkness.
     
  16. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001

    She also didn't have Snoke in her head since childhood destroying her moral compass. She was ultimately protected by whomever hid her on Jakku, likely because whoever did so didn't want her to become what Ben had become. Whomever that was saw her as Snoke's next target and purposefully hid her to protect her from suffering the same fate.
     
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  17. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 4, 2006
    Let me also add, I hold no sympathy for the Storm Troopers who opened fire on unarmed civilians on Kylo Ren's order, and that too is because of Finn. Finn could've pulled the trigger to save his own skin, but he choose not to do so.

    To me, Ben Solo doing Snokes bidding because he sees no way to destroy him...suggests a core of cowardice I don't see in Rey or Finn. Both of our heroes faced a man they really had little hope of beating since he's powerful and trained., and yet they did it anyways managing to come out on top in the end. In truth I don't really believe Kylo is doing this because he feels trapped, but if that is his reason...then I stand by what I've said...cause then he had Luke, Leia and Han there to help him and lend him what strength they could till the family found a way to topple Snoke.

    The same force that created the very Storm Trooper program Finn managed to reject....and without the training and guidance of Ben's family.

    Frankly false since Luke's managed to do a fantastic Job of hiding from Snoke...as has Leia since Snoke didn't know where either of them currently resided.

    Again, Ben is with Snoke by choice. You can hear it in his voice when he preens under praise from his teacher, and in his desperate attempt to explain away his failure.

    JJ has stated the Ben is a parent's greatest fear, a child raised well that went wrong. Like so many others Ben choose to listen to the wrong voice, perhaps because it told him something he wanted to believe. Whatever the reason he made the decision to follow this path and despite his own misgivings continues to embrace it.
     
  18. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Chosen One star 4

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    Sep 20, 2001
    The same force that created the very Storm Trooper program Finn managed to reject....and without the training and guidance of Ben's family.

    I'm sorry, but this is a false equivalency. What happened to Finn is not the same as what happened to Ben Solo. Both are tragic manipulation of children But What happened to Finn--being raised as a child in the First Order is nowhere near the same as having a very powerful Force user in his head from what sounds like a very early age.

    Finn was raised in the First Order. It was his norm until he realized he didn't agree with it. Ben Solo was lured on a certain level away from family and his moral compass was distorted. We can all agree that the decisions he makes as Kylo Ren are very much his own. But it is beginning to sound a lot more like Snoke was manipulating him since childhood. You cannot claim free agency in that situation. There is no sense of agency when you have a very powerful predator shaping a child into a monster.
     
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  19. IncessantRamblings

    IncessantRamblings Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 20, 2016
    Just wanted to throw in my two cents on the bolded.... You pointed out Adam's comments about terrorism, but he actually referred to both sides (FO & Resistance) as this idea of terrorism.
    You also point out Pablo's comments on personal responsibility, but he has also said "But the story's not done. Stick with what's on the screen. What's in the story. No tweets. No interviews. No me. No them." He also just recently replied in a convo re: Snoke 'targeting' baby Kylo "Insinuation vs. suggestion! Sounds like a vague-off. For what it's worth, I think Anakin's responsible for Anakin's actions." & "That's my opinion. Doesn't mean I'm right." https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/831925630753058817

    P.S.
    Snoke didn't create the stormtrooper program, Hux Sr. & Jr. did....?
     
  20. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    i have a lot of sympathy for kylo ren, for finn and for rey. all three of them have been impacted from a very early age by the dark side. rey didn't have to have it in her head, nor did she have to be conditioned (at least since being left on jakku)... but the tradeoff apparently is that she had nothing at all: the absence of guided influences and conditioning. finn had the horrible conditioning/training program from the FO--and most stormtroopers apparently don't break from it (i'll wait to see if it's otherwise). kylo ren had a long battle between light and dark going on in his head. snoke was in there but he had a loving family. i am sure he fought this battle hard, but eventually the darkness won.

    i don't think that understanding that we have choices we can make that are ours (that we are responsible for our actions) and understanding that sometimes we are shaped by things more powerful and outside our control that warp and distort us are incompatible. i think it's okay to be understanding towards someone who is evil and that this doesn't mean that one is justifying their evil acts or claiming they have no accountability.

    i'm not sure where i will go with this. but what was done to ben solo i think is worse than what palpatine did to anakin by an incredibly wide margin. both were victims of child predators, but to have the child predator in your mind since you were conceived is... terrible. (ps. i don't wanna undermine the awfulness of what palpatine did to anakin)
     
  21. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Correct, but it does show his mentality which fits what has been shown so far on screen.



    Again, what I've quoted I feel is supported by what's on screen. Kylo can be as conflicted as he wants, can feel the pull to the light all he wants but until he actually does something about it, ie stop killing people for the FO, then my point stands. Also...if we can only go by what's on screen then all these comments about Kylo feeling trapped by the darkside and him being whispered at by Snoke as a baby are invalid since they are not shown on screen.

    [/quote]

    Snoke uses the Program to further his ends, built the organization that takes children from their parents and runs them through the program to build soldiers. Finn wasn't whispered to as a child while surrounded by his family. His only association WAS with the First Order and those who supported it. Any claims that I should feel sympathy for Kylo Ren fail to convince when I literally have a man who experienced the same thing or worse and still managed to do the right thing.
     
  22. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse Jedi Master star 4

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    May 15, 2016
    I feel I have just walked into the wrong thread considering in what has been said in the past few posts....[face_laugh]
     
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  23. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2017
    Adept i suspect we'll learn more on screen about kylo ren's predicament in eps. 8 and 9. it took really eps. 5 and 6 together for me to see how much a slave vader was to the emperor--to get a better sense of his predicament. luke was able to put together much of it *between* eps. 5 and 6.

    in ep.6 he told vader he could see the good in him, "the emperor hasn't driven it from you fully."
     
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  24. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 4, 2006
    Oh I know we'll learn more, and I'm sure we'll see why he fell...but that won't create sympathy in everyone. Vader made his choices and suffered for them...but his initial desire to save his wife does explain why his son could get through to him. Kylo Ren fell for a different reason, since his fear is of not being like Vader. However, no matter his reasons, he willingly serves a being that leads the FO whose crimes have been listed elsewhere but are known to all here. If Kylo were an actual slave Snokes will like Rinzler was to Clu...I might feel sympathy...then again even Rinzler managed to break free of it...so maybe not.
     
  25. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 28, 2016
    If Snoke was manipulating Ben since he was very little, I don't understand why they show Kylo so evil in TFA. They need to show me in the MOVIE that he is sympathetic, not just in novels
     
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