ST Kylo Ren and Rey in VIII and IX (See new guidelines on page 228)

I don't want to see THAT either. That too would be extremely out-of-character for someone who was able to even find good in Darth Vader.

 

i hadn't thought about that before. since luke has been in the same situation in which he was faced with the prospect of having to kill his own father (and guided to do so by his "masters"), that he would judge kylo all the more harshly. and kylo even knew this story. really kylo has rejected everything of what luke is and has taught. and if you met the anti-you would you judge it harshly and condemn it, or be understanding towards it? something that stands for everything one is against is often hated.

 

Since there seems to be a Force connection between Rey and Kylo, Luke might consider that dangerous since it could lead to Kylo finding Ahch-To or persuading Rey to join his side through their mental link. I imagine Rey will have dreams/visions of Kylo early on in TLJ before their next physical meeting. Luke could advise her to kill him to break the connection if that is the only way to do so. (I could be mistaken but I think nonesuch was the one who introduced this idea.)

 

That would make me think he'd be choosing his student over his nephew, whom he's known since birth...

 

I very much doubt they'll be exploring anything like the creation of the galaxy - and I don't think anyone has been suggesting it either. More like the nature of the Force and the origins of the Jedi. The more you try to grasp something like the Force, the more elusive it becomes. You can only approach it "unscientifically", through myth.

If you want a "scientific" approach to the Force, you get midichlorians.

 

I'm not sure if Luke would understand it. His father was basically a stranger, an evil man who caused him physical and emotional pain. Yet he wanted to redeem him instead of killing him.
Han was Luke's best friend, who saved his life more than once and a hero. He was harmless.Yet, Kylo killed him. What's Han biggest crime against Kylo? Being absent? Big deal

 

I did not have the impression that Kylo killed his father out of hatred. It seemed to be the opposite; he needed to prove to Snoke that he could overcome his sentiment for family, since that is where Darth Vader failed.

 

Midichlorians, barf.

 

Since I was unimpressed by Anakin's Jesus like origins and the midichlorians, I'm fine with no explanations of the Force.

 

If Luke's done any tantrumming since RotJ, it would have been after seeing his academy destroyed and students slaughtered. And yet he didn't try to hunt down and kill Kylo then.

Moreover, would Luke ever believe Kylo HAD to be killed, even to save the galaxy? He chose to save his father and resigned himself to death, despite the fact that that choice could have resulted in doom to others. (I'm not, btw, in any way criticizing that choice.) The idea that he'd completely flip and tell Rey to kill Kylo seems fundamentally absurd to me. Luke has flaws, but THAT isn't one of them :/

 

Luke could sense his father's sentiment for him. In the OT novelizations, Darth Vader feels proud of his son though he does not come out and say it.

Kylo slaying his own close family proves that he has gone past a line that Luke and even Vader had been unable to cross. Luke may consider his nephew unreachable at this point.

 

Dude, if that was Kylo's rational then I feel even more pessimistic about him getting a believable redemption or forgiveness arc....

 

though when there is still good/light in kylo, that's kind of no different than vader. i think a big difference is that there is baggage between luke and kylo, resentments. luke had just met vader, fought him only once in the movies (though the comics are adding more encounters), sensed the good in him and that vader didn't want to kill him because of that good, and realized he might be able to bring him back. luke and kylo however have a lot more history. so this isn't a new relationship, but an old one. and i think they split with some fundamental disagreements and each of them unwilling to give an inch. opposition between them grew in the relationship, and it can't simply be washed away. so even though luke might see that there is still good in kylo, maybe it becomes secondary, or it's not the point. it's about principles and values?

eta: this could be interesting in that the OT showed a lot of compassion, even for someone like vader. the sun shines on all after all, the good and the bad ("god" loves all beings equally). but people can have an incredibly difficult time finding any compassion for those they are locked in disagreement with. extremists can want to destroy others for having values they find abhorrent for instance. i can see interference between principles and compassion, and resolving it can be tricky.

and luke had probably invested so much emotionally in ben, so for him to turn around and destroy luke's school, kill everyone, join snoke, and now has killed han... this really is a very different situation. even though it's still a family situation.

 

This all comes back to the fact that he immediately regretted his actions. I do realize/acknowledge that you didn't see it that way. But since this is verified by the director, I am assuming that is the most accurate interpretation as intended by the filmmakers and writers.

Personally, I do not think Kylo will be able to bring himself to repeat such an act, since he now knows it will not free him of the pain and conflict that is tearing him apart.

 

that kylo has terrible rationale i think is a given. he is on the dark side. there's not really anything admirable about falling to the dark side. a dark warrior is a nasty piece of work.

 

Not really. if they are the first of the New Jedi or new Force Users than they are Adam&Eve figures. There are many examples in literature and movies where characters are Adam&Eve figures - Lyra and Will from His Dark Materials, Bastian and Moonchild from Never-ending Story, Jen and Kira from the Dark Crystal. In Norse mythology, you have Ask and Embla and then the Apocalyptic version Lif and Lifthrasir, who are the last surviving humans but the first of the new humans. And since the Jedi and Force Users "multiply" by passing the knowledge, it makes perfect sense that the founders, aka Adam&Eve figures, will pass the knowledge onto more and thus create more of their kind.

Luke at the end of ROTJ was like Lif and Lifthrasir, the last Jedi but the first of the Jedi he was going to pass his knowledge onto. But things went south for reasons that TLJ will hopefully explain.

 

Thanks for the credit! I did put an idea like that out there. In light of the new rumours, I was also wondering if we might see a process whereby the (hypothetical) mental link causes Kylo's light and Rey's darkness to grow stronger. So we could see a situation where Kylo's darkness infects Rey, and Rey's light infects Kylo - you could even argue that this started in TFA, thus Kylo feeling the pull to the light particularly strongly when he's with Rey and Rey calling upon the dark side of the Force when she's with Kylo. We've already been told that Rey has learnt things from Kylo's mind, so it stands to reason that it will go the other way too - Rey will compel Kylo to unlock a part of himself that he'd put up a barrier against, just as Kylo managed to unlock Rey's potential in the Force. That kind of reciprocal link could see both of them becoming progressively more ill at ease in their chosen surroundings (Kylo in the First Order, and Rey in the Resistance), to the point where things reach a head and Kylo ends up back with the Resistance while Rey goes with Snoke.

 

Yep, I think that something happened at the cliff, she grew stronger and he grew weaker but not necessarily just from hemorrhaging. As you say, there may be some reciprocal link.

As for Rey going with Snoke, one of big staples of SW is that hero does something against the advise/wishes of their elders. That's an important step in self-actualization. They have to find their own way even if it means making mistakes along the way. Luke was advised against going to Bespin and then trying to save Vader. On Bespin, his presence didn't help his friends, and I commend Kasdan and Lucas for turning his bravado into a fiasco - Han ended up in Jabba's hands, Lando would have escaped with Leia and Chewie anyway, while Luke lost his hand and got traumatized by the greatest twist in cinema. However, that disastrous decision and acting on his own had positive consequences in the future, leading to his decision to give Vader a chance despite the risk. So Rey going with Snoke would fit because that would be undoubtedly something that she decided on her own, against Luke's advise.

 

Honestly I feel it's the opposite. He accomplished what he thought he couldn't despite the pain and conflict he felt and he's rewarded with more training. In fact the only reasons he's in trouble with Snoke is due to a failure to capture/eliminate Rey. Since Kylo fears sentiment and it's weakening effect (as seen with Darth Vader) he might view his lingering regret over his fathers death as the source of his failure and seek to correct his mistake. That, to me, is why he no longer wears a Mask. His conflict with Rey showed him he was hiding behind it, that he was emulating his grandfather to his own detriment, now he'll push forward and work harder to silence his regrets...and with them gain the power he seeks to accomplish his true goal.

Rey sparring Kylo (if that is what she chooses to do) could work wonderfully well...especially if Kylo turns on her generous nature in this film or the next one. In essence Rey would feed him more rope, giving him a chance at salvation...but in the end if he chooses otherwise the rope tightens and he hangs himself. Which would be a great way for a new type of Jedi to deal with the situation. Keep the unbalanced ones from harming others, but give them a chance to correct themselves, and if they continue down the path of imbalance...arrange things so that they destroy themselves.

 

Oh, JJ said it, and it's technically canon. I just feel it was handled poorly on-screen. Surprising, since I LOVED TFA and disappointing because Adam Driver and his character deserved better :/ That being said, it sounds like many fans were satisfied with how it went down. I wish ai could say I'm one of them. I take no enjoyment in my disappointment.

 

Actually, Lando, Leia, and Chewie wouldn't have escaped because the falcon's hyperdrive had been sabotaged. They were only able to escape because Artoo was with them and he fixed the hyperdrive. If Luke wouldn't have gone to Bespin, Artoo wouldn't have gone either, and wouldn't have been there to keep Landon, Leia, and Chewie from being recaptured again.

It was also important for Luke to go to Bespin because he learned the truth about his father, and he also came to realize that there was still some good in him, and that maybe he could be returned to the light. It was their meeting on Bespin that eventually led to vader's tossing the emperor into the reactor to save his son's life. This led to the fall of the empire..., for a few decades anyway, until a new sort of empire emerged to take its place.

 

Right. Luke going to Bespin might not have been right for Yoda's plan but it was certainly right for Luke, considering the spiral effect it had that ultimately ended with Anakin redeemed and the Emperor dead.

 

Exactly. That's the whole point. A character does something that doesn't have a positive effect short term. Even Obi Wan thought that Luke finding out about Vader was a weakness. So we have a situation where the hero:

disobeyed the wise elder(s)
his disobedience didn't end in short term victory but in defeat
is reprimand by the wise elder(s)
disagrees with the wise elder(s) again
does his thing his way
triumphs in the most unexpected way

So if, lets say, Rey went with Snoke because she wants answers from him, that would fall into this category and provide decent cliffhanger that still gives some closure to the story. Likewise if Kylo ended up with the Resistance, at least to have a scene with his mother.

 

So, images are up and although they are just promo, they at least show what the characters will look like in the rain fight scene (we know that thanks to MSW costume description):



Also, these moves:





this is going to rock hard and they may have 2 fights in the movie - the rain and another.