ST Kylo Ren and Rey in VIII and IX (See new guidelines on page 228)

Srry not as talented as GL

 

*Reposting from the Colin Trevorrow thread, as it seems more relevant here.

I personally think Rey will lose to Kylo in TLJ (she has to experience defeat at some point) but I can see her saving Kylo's life from someone else. I imagine it'd be pretty unambiguous - like, someone tries to kill him and she literally places herself in between them to stop it. Then, perhaps in the fashion of a knight, Kylo very reluctantly pledges himself to her, and from that point onward they have an uneasy alliance that always has that shadow of doubt and fear of betrayal. There are BTS shots of Adam and Daisy apparently training to fight similar opponents. If they are both fighting Snoke's guards, it could mean that Kylo is somehow required to defend Rey. It would be easier for an audience to buy than an overnight change of heart - he's doing it out of obligation. I can see this eventually leading to true redemption, or something more open-ended.

 

Despite Kylo's "dark knight" styling, I don't see his characterization in TFA as "knightly" in a positive sensevat all.

Murder of a restrained, unarmed old man? Slaughter of a village? Killing his father?

It could well be, though, that as the light in him becomes apparent, he *will* begin to exhibit chivalric behavior?

I see your point re the BTS footage. I can see that as having some probative value re Rey and Kylo fighting the same kinds of enemies, though we know so little about the third act and don't even know what happens to Luke/Kylo at the point Rey leaves in the Falcon.

 

dark knights are evil and do evil things. hence dark knight.

 

I think we will see distinctive "knightly" behavior from Kylo in TLJ.

One reason I think so is the artwork of him kneeling here, like a knight praying before battle -



Sure, he might be kneeling to Snoke... or to someone else. We'll see.

ETA - another reason I think Kylo might end up protecting Rey in TLJ is that in the databank it says, "Ren swore his loyalties were only to Snoke. But he was intrigued by Rey..." This was added after filming was wrapped, and to me it implies/foretells a change of loyalties.

Again, it may be due purely to obligation, such as if Rey saves his life. I think it would make for more interesting storytelling if their alliance doesn't come easily for either of them. But this could inadvertently help pave the road to redemption for Kylo as well.

 

Snoke *did* knight him, in a way

I think he'll be very conflicted in TLJ, but the removal of some sympathetic Kylo stuff from TFA suggests to me that they may have initially had a shorter redemption arc for Kylo, but decided to lengthen it.

Obv Kylo is a major character in TFA, but his arc isn't the movie's primary focus.

 

I am fairly certain that his arc will directly involve Rey, so I am not sure what point you're driving at.

Their destinies are intertwined according to the databank. Their fates will be somehow connected.

The main protagonist and antagonist arcs pretty much always affect each other. They are not separate stories.

 

Rey's destiny is intertwined with that of other characters as well.

TLJ is not focusing on Kylo. Rey's relationship with him is not the most important one in the movie. He'll be getting solo screentime as well, but he has a lot of progress to make, and he doesn't have the benefit of the kind of screentime a protsgonist gets.

 

This thread is titled, "Kylo Ren and Rey in VIII and IX" hence the focus on their relationship. I was a fan of their scenes in TFA and enjoy speculating on their possible future interactions, which is why I created this thread. I'm well aware that Rey will interact with characters besides Kylo, but there are other places to discuss that.

 

I know

My purpose was not to say we should be discussing other relationships as well. I was making a point about how tight the narrative space for each character is in the ST.

 

there was only one scene between vader and luke in ESB and it gave me a lot to think about.

 

I don't deny how interesting the Kylo-Rey scenes are, nor can I dispute that that they're very important to the ST.

The acting was awesome, too

My intention is not to belittle the Rey-Kylo dynamic.

 

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that the dynamic between Rey and Kylo will be one of the most important focuses in the rest this trilogy. Lucasfilm has been stressing the connection between the two since TFA came out. Whether they choose to heavily focus on that in TLJ or not, I don't know. There is so much going on in TLJ that I think it's going to be tough to have them spend too much time together, but I could be wrong. Really excited to watch their relationship play out for the next couple of movies and why their destinies are so 'intertwined.'

In a way, it's fairly obvious why - they are the next generation of light and dark side force users, they are exploring opposite spectrums of the force with seemingly opposite masters, they're both trying to find meaning and purpose to their abilities. But I also can sort of guarantee that this connection will be deeper and will have a more profound effect on the saga and the Skywalker legacy as a whole. Just can't wait to find out what that is

 

I agree. Perhaps not to that degree, but mostly.

A lot depends, I think, on one's view of how the ST is setting up the overall relationship framework (the number of key relationships, their relative importance, and how they connect to one another).

We probably disagree in our speculation, but we'll of course have a better lay of the land after TLJ.

 

Hey, that's fair! And keep in mind, in no way am I saying that Kylo and Rey's dynamic is the absolute most important or the only focus of the ST. There are a lot of story arcs happening in this trilogy and some may play into others. For example, I suspect the Kylo/Rey dynamic will largely play into the 'balancing of the force' story arc. In what way, I have no clue, but I'm sure Rey and Luke's probable quest to find and establish balance in the force will have something to do with Rey and Kylo's relationship, among other things.

 

Yeah.

I feel the ST is structured differently than the PT and OT. More important characters getting arcs, and the OT3's involvement is turning out to be much more than just a nostalgia-fest. I think, in the end, I feel that the Saga as a whole really will look like the story of a family. The OT could have, in retrospect, done that better by not marginalizing Leia and by not making Luke and Leia's mother a nonentity, but the OT was of course made up as it went along. I think LFL is, in a way, correcting for that.

Although, just to be clear, I think the OT3's relevance is their relationships with the younger generation; it's not about Luke/Leia/Han anymore, but those dynamics are still fundamental.

 

And I think if the endgame is Balance, the Rey and Kylo need to meet in the middle. That does not mean they have to be romantically paired--though it doesn't exclude it. What it means is the have to be on the same side balancing dark and light within, and no longer at war with each other. If you're on the opposite ends of a teeter totter, you swing back and forth. But as your both sides move to the middle and counter balance, the teeter totter no longer swings back and forth.

 

As a Knight Templar, sure: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar

Snoke, some artifact of his grandfather, or something he finds on Ach-to related to the true nature of the force all make sense at this point.

Honestly, since he tried to turn her to the darkside in TFA I'm not surprised by his interest. Rey is untrained but powerful and adding her strength to his ultimate goal makes sense, if he can turn her to his way of thinking. I would also caution about reading too much into Databank entries. Kylo was clearly 'intrigued' by Rey at the end of TFA for reasons already stated, and the databank is eventually updated to reflect that. By the same token, all we heard about Finn at first was that he had a choice to make in TLJ about whether or not he was going to join the Resistance, even John Boyega seemed to talk about Finn in this context. Then the BTS trailer comes out and they are openly saying he's working for the Resistance, with JB stating that Finn is fighting while Rey is stuck training. So if they're not going to give that away until they're ready to speak on it, then the Databank is not going to be that useful a weather vane for determining where the story is going.

We know Kylo Ren and Rey will interact and that it'll be interesting. We also know that Adam Driver was very intense on set, refusing to eat dinner with Mark Hamill as a kind of method acting. We also know that the beating heart of this movie is Rey's relationship with Luke. It wouldn't surprise me if Kylo Ren tries to take another father figure from Rey. However, this time instead of killing them, he tries to expose Luke's flaws in an attempt to ruin her trust in Skywalkers instruction and or POV. A little doubt can work wonders, and if she stays out of this conflict because of it, then it's a win for Kylo Ren and the first order.

 

+1

Tho I get the sense that Luke will (initially) disappoint Rey without help from Kylo.

I know Kylo and Rey supposedly duel on Achoo, but as yet we don't know whether that trio dynamic will focus on Rey-Kylo or Kylo-Luke. There seems to be far more to resolve between the latter two. It will be interesting to see why Kylo hates his uncle so much. Luke, we know, blamed himself for the temple disaster, but still has excellent reasons to be furious at Kylo.

We shall see! The marketing thus far is REALLY pushing poorpuppy!Kylo and mysterious/angry?Luke. (Rey is still a big ??, too.)

 

Do you think they'll show Rey-Kylo scenes in the next trailer or not show them until the movie?

 

It's funny you mention about Adam not having lunch with Mark, because just the other day I was thinking about that, and how he did have a dinner with just Daisy while filming in Ireland. One of the cooks/restaurants that was serving the actors wrote about it on their twitter account last summer.

 

IncessantRamblings I can't see who you're replying to, but yeah, it's interesting Adam would have dinner with apparently only Daisy but decline to have lunch with Mark. It sounded like the director wanted them to bond a little.

 

Kylo Ren wants an apprentice (or perhaps an Allie) in Rey, he made that clear in TFA...so why wouldn't he attempt to appeal to her? If the beating heart of this film is the relationship between Luke and Rey...then there has to be threats to that connection. In fact I already addressed that in the post your quoting.

Kylo Ren attempting to connect with Rey for that purpose makes complete sense, and she may listen at some point due to her own frustrations about her instruction or due to information he provides. So yes, Kylo wants his uncle dead, Rey, however, is more useful to him. She's clay he can mold as needed to complete his goal, and something else to take away from his uncle.

Edit: during the BTS reel Gwen talked about how this film shows the complexities of the characters. So Kylo Ren trying to bond with Rey might initially seem a positive thing at first glance...but it may in fact turn out to be a toxic connection. Look at Palpatine and Anakin, that was a very dark Father/Son relationship. Palpatine spent years looking out for Anakin, giving him advice to the point that Anakin felt he was a good man deep down, and thus trusted in him more than he should've even when it was revealed he was the Sith Lord. Something similar could be at play here.

 

Didn't disagree or agree with your thoughts, all I said was that when you wrote that it reminded me of the story from last year....

 

Rebirth of the rule of two.........