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Lit Kylo vs Luke - Military victory vs Moral victory

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sidv88, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Spinning off from the State of the Galaxy and Jakku thread, many have passionate ideas about who "won" the confrontation between Luke and Kylo.

    Now we all know what Rian's intentions were, and we all know 9 will probably end with the good guys winning. However, 9 isn't out yet and a fair argument can be made that Rian's intentions, if not in the work itself, is not canon. So Luke saying 'The Rebellion reborn today' can be taken as, totally just Luke's opinion, and not some divine word of god (director).

    I personally feel Kylo still has the upper hand, particularly if Luke is limited in his ghost reappearances, but I'm open to reading other takes on this.

    The rundown:

    Luke victory:

    He saved what's left of the Resistance, which fits on the Falcon.

    Rey got away with some books to train (although Luke didn't know about the books, so he somehow thinks Rey is going to train a new Order from just 2 lessons).

    Broomboy and a few others are inspired by Luke to be Jedi.

    Kylo looks foolish.

    Kylo victory:

    What's left of the Resistance literally fits on the Falcon.

    Kylo looks foolish, big deal. He still has the firepower and the military.

    Kylo can still tell the truth about Luke's cowardice to let down NR morale.

    Broomboy and other Jedi aspirants may feel let down once they realize Luke is dead, he's not leading them, and he's not answering prayers as a ghost on call.

    Here are some posts from the earlier thread that articulate the 2 sides well:
     
  2. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the Resistance has actually done a decent job of inspiring the galaxy that the First Order can be defeated. Not only did they destroy Starkiller Base but they also destroyed the Supremacy. You could also argue that Rey is the individual who assassinated Snoke (or at least led to the assassination ala Luke and Darth Vader).

    The irony is that ALL of this has NOTHING to do with Luke Skywalker.

    I don't see why he would inspire anyone versus Rey, Holdo, and the martyred Resistance.
     
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  3. mnjedi

    mnjedi Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 4, 2012
    I wouldn't really call what Kylo did a military victory either, the FO traded a Dreadnought, the Supremacy, Snoke, and about 20 star destroyers for 3 outdated capital ships and still failed to eliminate the leadership of the resistance. That would be a pretty awful failure if the movie didn't imply that those 3 ships were somehow the entirety of the free Galaxy.
     
  4. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    That's a good point. How does Kylo get military training? He's not really qualified. We know from the Clone Wars when Jedi were thrust into being military leaders, they arguably weren't very good at it.

    We don't know Snoke's military background, and anyways he's dead now.

    Even Vader and Palpatine--I don't think these guys won a military victory that wasn't a sham (Clone Wars). Once faced with real opponents in the Alliance, they fell hard.
     
  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Didn't the Jedi do an excellent job against a far superior sized military force? So much so that Palpatine had to sabotage them numerous times to keep them from winning outright?

    Snoke does not share power but he seems decent at delegating.

    Hoth.
     
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  6. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    If Hoth is an Imperial victory, than Crait is a First Order victory. I just don't see how Hoth can be spinned as an Imperial victory when the Rebel leadership escapes, yet on the next note when the Rebel leadership again escapes on Crait it's spun as a Rebel victory.
     
  7. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    The context is different. Hoth is an Imperial victory because the Rebel Alliance loses a enormous amount of material that they can't replace - the KDY Ion Cannon, the shields, the airspeeders and all the stuff in Hoth proper. And they can't replace it either. The Resistance wins at Crait by destroying a bunch of material the FO can't replace - Supremacy, for one - and inspiring the rest of the galaxy to rally against the First Order.
     
  8. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    I think it's largely because the Resistance didn't have a lot of credibility as an organization, but knowing that Luke Skywalker supported them, was one of them, passed on his legacy to them...that's a big PR win for them.

    Anyway it's also worth remembering that, when it comes to an insurgency like this, if the Resistance's entire mission is to survive long enough to inspire the galaxy and then escape, they win. The First Order has to destroy them utterly or they're at enormous risk. This is why Snoke and Hux are obsessed with it - it's why Snoke needs Skywalker dead.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  9. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Did Luke have any credibility to begin with anymore?

    Think about it--no matter what one's past accomplishments were or how great they were, you're always defined by your last act. It's not fair, but we see plenty of instances of this in the real world without naming names.

    The last anyone heard from Luke, his school washed up, all students either died, kidnapped and tortured, or defected to the FO. And Luke ran. Ran while the FO rose up and killed billions on Hosnian.

    No offense to him, but Neville Chamberlain gave a fine speech and threw his full support behind Winston Churchill. He specifically asked for Churchill knowing Churchill was the best man for Britain, the way Luke threw his full support behind Rey as the new Last Jedi. And Chamberlain did many good things in his career. Yet all anyone ever remembers is his failure to deal with the Nazis properly.

    How is Luke different from Neville Chamberlain?
     
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  10. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Literally the entire plot of two consecutive movies now has hinged on the generally accepted idea that, well, yes.
     
  11. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    We see the people who knew him best say that. Rey hadn't even believed the Jedi were real in TFA.

    The Resistance is a good force, but they don't represent the average galactic citizen. They may generally believe that Luke is a big deal while the rest of the galaxy does not. A good analogy would be like the Star Wars franchise and China--we generally believe the Star Wars franchise is a big deal and think China in general would think so, and I'm sure many Chinese business people in film and within Disney's bubble circle thought it would do well in China (thus the big marketing push), but as a whole the franchise hasn't done that great in China in recent years.

    The Resistance are like the Chinese business people--they think marketing Luke's comeback would be a big deal for their people, when in reality their people can't care less because the Resistance thinks in a bubble.
     
  12. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Correction for important context: Rey believed Luke was a mythical hero too good to be true.
    This seems willfully obtuse. There's nothing in the movie to indicate that this is the case, and quite a lot to indicate it isn't.
     
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  13. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    What indicates this isn't the case? If Luke's word was so important, a good word from him would have been all that was needed to save Leia's career in Bloodline. And bloodline was before lukes failure with his school.

    And after Luke was MIA at Hosnian incident, his standing would only become even more insignificant than it was in Bloodline.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  14. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Rey from nowhere and the abused stable children idolize Luke Skywalker. This book exists. The Resistance is staking everything on finding Luke Skywalker, and - and this is potentially the most salient point - so is the First Order. The intention of the movies is incredibly clear. Insisting that Luke's name may be mud to the galaxy at large involves inventive speculation and "what ifs" that aren't based on anything in the films themselves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  15. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Mind you, the people in Star Wars have remarkably short memories.

    Admiral Motti is stunned the Jedi were real! 20 years after they were common and he was a youth.

    "Luke Skywalker, I thought he was a legend."

    Which is like saying "General MacArthur? I thought he was a legend."

    Maybe even Colin Powell actually.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  16. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    But what it's absolutely not like is saying, "General MacArthur? What a useless, irrelevant person whose accomplishments have amounted to nothing!"

    I think it's less a function of short memory than the sheer size of the galaxy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  17. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    The Resistance, leias bubble, thinks finding luke is a big deal. No one on hosnian cares, and they represent the galaxy more than leias clique does.

    Even after crait, it's literally kids who are impressed, not outside military officers etc. Broomboy, not his canto bight owners who have a large financial stake in the war, think luke is a big deal. That in itself is telling.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  18. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Mind you, it's a weird final stand.

    He saves the Resistance and maybe saving Leia is enough but it's all but eradicated and Kylo Ren looks foolish but he accomplished his goal.

    Kylo Ren needed to get rid of the Last Jedi Master and succeeded.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  19. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Again, no: even people who grew up on Jakku think of Luke as a legendary hero.
    I'll reiterate that the First Order thinks it's extremely important to keep Luke from returning to help the Resistance, and threaten to post that incredible excerpt from the RotS novel about kids and hope.

    Again, the intention of the movies is really clear. If you don't think that story is realistic, that's another story.
     
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  20. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Luke in TLJ is basically the Luke of the Shadow of Mindor.

    Luke is a massively ridiculously famous figure.

    It's just he considers himself a failure at reviving the Jedi and a guy who had a few military accomplishments (wars do not make one great). Which the galaxy has exaggerated to ludicrous extents.

    So much so when Luke says, "What, take on the entire first order myself?"

    Rey could be forgiven for saying, "YES!"

    "Okay."
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  21. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    As Luke tells him, his goals are dumb and bad and wrong. Kylo realizes that he screwed up, which is why he's not celebrating at the end of the movie.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  22. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Kylo Ren: "Duh, Sith Lord."
     
  23. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
  24. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Just saying evil, wrong, and unhappy goals is the point.

    :)

    Mind you, TLJ did a good job of establishing that Kylo Ren doubling down on evil is unlikely to make him happy.
     
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Those are still among the most memorable bits of the novelization:


    Grievous is a monster.
    The Separatist Supreme Commander is an abomination of nature, a fusion of flesh and droid—and his droid parts have more compassion than what remains of his alien flesh. This half-living creature is a slaughterer of billions. Whole planets have burned at his command. He is the evil genius of the Confederacy. The architect of their victories.
    The author of their atrocities.
    And his durasteel grip has closed upon Palpatine. He confirms the capture personally in a wideband transmission from his command cruiser in the midst of the orbital battle. Beings across the galaxy watch, and shudder, and pray that they might wake up from this awful dream.
    Because they know that what they're watching, live on the HoloNet, is the death of the Republic.
    Many among these beings break into tears; many more reach out to comfort their husbands or wives, their creche-mates or kin- triads, and their younglings of all descriptions, from children to cubs to spawn-fry.
    But here is a strange thing: few of the younglings need comfort. It is instead the younglings who offer comfort to their elders. Across the Republic—in words or pheromones, in magnetic pulses, tentacle-braids, or mental telepathy—the message from the younglings is the same: Don't worry. It'll be all right. Anakin and Obi-Wan will be there any minute.
    They say this as though these names can conjure miracles.
    Anakin and Obi-Wan. Kenobi and Skywalker. From the beginning of the Clone Wars, the phrase Kenobi and Skywalker has become a single word. They are everywhere. HoloNet features of their operations against the Separatist enemy have made them the most famous Jedi in the galaxy. Younglings across the galaxy know their names, know everything about them, follow their exploits as though they are sports heroes instead of warriors in a desperate battle to save civilization. Even grown-ups are not immune; it's not uncommon for an exasperated parent to ask, when faced with offspring who have just tried to pull off one of the spectacularly dangerous bits of foolishness that are the stock-in-trade of high-spirited younglings everywhere, So which were you supposed to be, Kenobi or Skywalker?
    Kenobi would rather talk than fight, but when there is fighting to be done, few can match him. Skywalker is the master of audacity; his intensity, boldness, and sheer jaw-dropping luck are the perfect complement to Kenobi's deliberate, balanced steadiness. Together, they are a Jedi hammer that has crushed Separatist infestations on score of worlds.
    All the younglings watching the battle in Coruscant's sky know it: when Anakin and Obi-Wan get there, those dirty Seppers are going to wish they'd stayed in bed today.
    The adults know better, of course. That's part of what being a grown-up is: understanding that heroes are created by the HoloNet, and that the real-life Kenobi and Skywalker are only human beings, after all.
    Even if they really are everything the legends say they are, who's to say they'll show up in time? Who knows where they are right now? They might be trapped on some Separatist backwater. They might be captured, or wounded. Even dead.
    Some of the adults even whisper to themselves, They might have fallen.
    Because the stories are out there. Not on the HoloNet, of course—the HoloNet news is under the control of the Office of the Supreme Chancellor, and not even Palpatine's renowned candor would allow tales like these to be told—but people hear whispers. Whispers of names that the Jedi would like to pretend never existed.
    Sora Bulq. Depa Billaba. Jedi who have fallen to the dark. Who have joined the Separatists, or worse: who have massacred civilians, or even murdered their comrades. The adults have a sickening suspicion that Jedi cannot be trusted. Not anymore. That even the greatest of them can suddenly just... snap.
    The adults know that legendary heroes are merely legends, and not heroes at all.
    These adults can take no comfort from their younglings. Palpatine is captured. Grievous will escape. The Republic will fall. No mere human beings can turn this tide. No mere human beings would even try. Not even Kenobi and Skywalker.
    And so it is that these adults across the galaxy watch the HoloNet with ashes where their hearts should be.
    Ashes because they can't see two prismatic bursts of realspace reversion, far out beyond the planet's gravity well; because they can't see a pair of starfighters crisply jettison hyperdrive rings and streak into the storm of Separatist vulture fighters with all guns blazing.
    A pair of starfighters. Jedi starfighters. Only two.
    Two is enough.
    Two is enough because the adults are wrong, and their younglings are right.
    Though this is the end of the age of heroes, it has saved its best for last.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018