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Lit Kylo vs Luke - Military victory vs Moral victory

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sidv88, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    General Hugs more like it!

    All the 14 year old girls in the stormtrooper corps love him!
     
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  2. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Now we know they're brainwashed.
     
  3. starfish

    starfish Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 9, 2003
    I don’t think Hux is capable of leading a revolt because I don’t think he is capable of getting people to follow him.

    That said, I think the main motivation for Hux revolting would be self preservation, so I wouldn’t be opposed to him actually attempting a revolt only to then fail spectacularly.
     
  4. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Hux doesn't need to lead a revolt, he just needs to arrange an unfortunate "accident" for the new Supreme Leader and then take up the mantle of Supreme Leader as he's the next in line.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    The problem is Hux knows if he misses...well, Kylo Ren is not as forgiving as Snoke.
     
  6. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    "When facing a dangerous opponent, make sure of your shot. One may be all you get."

    One shot was all Gunner Yage needed to kill Darth Rauder, so Hux should be fine.
     
  7. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 3, 2005
    Luke wins; he allows the orthodoxy that gives birth to Vaders to die, demonstrates a non-violent way to thwart evil while planting the seed of a new, more accessible, and more altruistic brand of heroism across the galaxy (Canto Bight/Broomboy is representative and not literal although I can't see how Johnson could have made that more clear).

    All those who gain power are afraid to lose it, which is true of everyone in this series except for Luke. Similar themes were explored by Chris Nolan in his Batman films - violent resolution only prompts escalation. This is demonstrated repeatedly in a galaxy where Death Stars pop up and evolve on a constant cycle, up to the point that the First Order are literally dragging a version of it behind them in this film. Luke breaks the cycle. He has never been a greater hero than he is now.
     
  8. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    9 will be a comedy movie involving huxs repeated failed attempts to kill kylo, like wile e coyote and road runner or Elmer fudd and bugs bunny.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
     
  9. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    The problem with this is that without Batman a league of ninjas will kill everyone in Gotham City.
     
  10. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 3, 2005
    "The Republic doesn't exist out here."

    The real question is why do the ninjas want to destroy Gotham? Because it's a city that resolves itself with violence and counter-violence. It's no coincidence that one of Nolan's B-arcs is the transition from hardliner Loeb to compromising Gordon.

    Thomas Wayne's example fails because he's trying to turn the wrong people - the victims. Rutger Hauer is the real villain in this case.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  11. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Even if it doesn't, I'm pretty sure its got the HoloNet, who would be covering Republic victories. Hell, they're living in the site of the most major Republic victory.
     
  12. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Did Palpatine dismantle in canon?

    Rey doesn't look like she had the holonet either.
     
  13. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Snoke made a massive fortune Force skyping for people without holonet access. I bet he was a one man holonet dating site too. What will the galaxy do without him?? :eek:
     
  14. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 8, 1999
    Klyo and Luke might as well have had the Lonestar and Dark Helmet conversation...

    "So Lonestar, now you see that evil will always win because good is dumb. "
     
  15. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 8, 1999
    Because they are ludicrous events. He downed a Death Star when he had no combat training. He had six months of Jedi training at best/most and dueled Darth Vader and lived. Then, about a 6 months to a year later he decided to confront daddy and ask him to be good again and it worked. It's pretty ludicrous. Had he not done it, the DS II might have been destroyed but Vader and Palpatine would have escaped and the Rebel fleet over Endor might have been wiped out by reinforcements regardless of its victory.

    Anyway, it would have been ludicrous until the sequel trilogy. Poe is by far the most powerful individual in the galaxy followed closely by Rey.

    Poe proves you never needed the Force to take out the Death Star and you really don't need the Jedi, who like alcohol, are the cause of and solution to all of the galaxy's problems.

    Agreed. Poe's legend is already almost greater than Luke's. All he has to do is turn Kylo to the light by telling he secretly loves him and he'll have a legend greater than Luke's.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  16. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 3, 2005
    ...because he's the true architect of the Resistance's demise...?
     
  17. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 8, 1999
    But he's one of the sparks that will kick the can and light the fire that will burn the first order to the ground.

    Weren't you paying attention to the message of the Last Jedi? It barely mattered what happened in the movie. As long as those 12 people escaped, the First Order loses. The Resistance is now the new Rebellion and it is more powerful than ever.

    In true Jar Jar Binks power, he could have slap sticked his way through the movie and like a Maroon 5 song, everything will all end up all right. They'll all just float on again.

    The movies and the cartoons have consistently showed us that, individually, these are the most powerful characters in the saga:

    From most powerful to least:

    Poe Dameron, Jar Jar Binks, Rey, Anakin, and Luke Skywalker.
    The only reason that Poe outranks Jar Jar, is because unlike Jar Jar, Poe can actually direct the power of luck. It makes almost seem like not luck but it is. He can pick targets, say, "Luck work" and TIE squadrons will miss him and turbolasers will never hit, far outstripping anything due to skill alone. Jar Jar's luck power relies on serendipity. Jar Jar can't direct his luck. Jar Jar doesn't even know what the target is but he'll still hit it.

    And no, as the Terminator said in T3, "I am not poopin you." I truly believe this.

    I will also say that "luck" in Star Wars is possibly far deeper than the Force and deserves to be concept explored in its own right. Like in the Ringworld universe, maybe the Empire could even try to harness "luck". Luck should be a concept seperate from the Force much like "magick" in Star Wars is.

    But I'm quite serious, when I say that TFA and TLJ demonstrate that Luke was completely unneeded and that eventually sheer luck would have toppled the Empire. Force sensitives need not apply.

    EDIT: Undoubtedly someone will quote to me,"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."
    But that undermines Star Wars from the beginning. It implies that guys like Jar Jar, Han, and Poe are all in some ways Force sensitives or have their destinies controlled by the Force.

    Which is fine too but Han, Jar Jar, and Poe are supposed to be just average Joes with no Force sensitivity. Now, if the Force can still control their destiny despite them not being able to control the Force then that still proves the idea that outright Force sensitives are not needed. The Force can then take control of any vessel and use it to accomplish its real.

    I prefer a counter power to the force, and I'll call it "luck."
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
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  18. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 8, 1999
    Ha! Impact still blunted by superb Force prediction.

    Only luck can outdo my Force powers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  20. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis

    The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 3, 2005
    Presumably this comes from the treasured methodology of "Understanding Star Wars through the prism of Galactic Battlegrounds"
     
  21. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 8, 1999
    Only if a worker escaped too.

    But even in GBGs , if you're down to 12 escaping units at the end of a mission, most likely you've lost.
     
  22. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Yeah.

    Even TLJ's message undercuts its plot.

    If new Force-using lightsiders will appear out of anywhere whenever there's a dark presence in the galaxy, given Skywalker-status like Rey if necessary... then the Resistance didn't even need to survive. They all could have died. Because then a new Anakin/Luke/Leia/Rey would have been born, broom-boy would get a Force awakening/luck upgrade, and the cycle would repeat until the bad guys lost. Or perhaps they wouldn't even need a new trained Force-sensitive, and some farmboy or smuggler would blow up Hux and Kylo's ship. It might have to take a little longer, with more death and suffering in-between, (or maybe it would happen even sooner) but it would still ultimately happen. Of course you want the heroes to survive, but we know ultimately it doesn't matter if you're looking at effect, it only matters for their "souls"/personal lives that they choose to spend and risk their lives doing the right thing. Not that that's a small thing, but it just underscores how it really ultimately doesn't matter if you're looking at galactic impact.

    Though it's always been weird that there were only a few thousand in the Rebel Alliance, in a galaxy of quadrillions of quadrillions. And just a few hundred in the Resistance. With such small numbers, maybe the rest of the galaxy truly cares too little to be worth fighting over, and those Rebels/Resisters would do better to go found a new independent colony on some uncolonized planet in the Unknown Regions. Ok, maybe I'm being too cynical in this paragraph, like I said just fighting for the right thing does matter, but really, the scale is way off.

    Not to mention that blowing up Starkiller base and the Supremacy did far more against the FO both militarily and inspirationally/symbolically/metaphorically than Luke's illusion did.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
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  23. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 8, 1999
    "Though it's always been weird that there were only a few thousand in the Rebel Alliance, in a galaxy of quadrillions of quadrillions. And just a few hundred in the Resistance. With such small numbers, maybe the rest of the galaxy truly cares too little to be worth fighting over, and those Rebels/Resisters would do better to go found a new independent colony on some uncolonized planet in the Unknown Regions. Ok, maybe I'm being too cynical in this paragraph, like I said just fighting for the right thing does matter, but really, the scale is way off."

    Actually, I had a way more cynical post in mind that touched upon a few points you just mentioned.

    Not to go too far into it, but sometimes the causes that each side are fighting for aren't really defined, especially those of the New Republic and the First Order. As long as the free porn, video games, and food keeps flowing, what exactly are the stakes for the rest of the galaxy? Does the First Order really intend to subject every planet to untold misery by making them slaves to mine and construct just for the sake of mining and constructing? That's Saturday morning cartoon villainy."I love Evil!!!! I eat people. Yum"

    Not only is there no religious persecution (which at least existed in some forms under the Empire) but there's not even any economic disagreements portrayed. We know that the First Order believes in dictatorship and the NR is pro democracy but unless those political systems involve some kind of persecution, those are a bit too abstract for people to fight for. After religion, entertainment, sex, and food is what most people want freedom with. Interfere with any of those things and people will get upset.

    However, if all that stuff flows for the majority of the people and they don't really get to see the suffering of the persecuted in front of them, I can't see them really getting up in arms. Destroying Hosnian Prime should just make everyone think the FO is batpoop crazy but it doesn't really give them purpose as a political entity. Yes, they want dictatorship but then what?

    Essentially you have two very shallow political entities that say "dictatorship!" and "democracy!" but beyond that what? Why? You both are crazy because all the same stuff flows regardless of who is in charge and you're killing each over a ruling system. An isolated colony in the UR does sound nice...

    The Empire suffers from some lack of depth as well but not to the extent of something like the FO. We know the Empire persecuted religions and races and actively attempted to create a system that could expand beyond its border and consume other cultures. It also guided the economy of the Empire somewhat, choosing favored corporations and what not.

    Euh. Maybe that's why Kylo was like, let's just start over. They really are all just crazy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  24. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    The First Order rescued the galaxy from the ANARCHY of the New Republic!
     
  25. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    The Empire and Rebellion are pretty shallow in IV-VI. There's nothing on screen that says they were persecuting any particular species or religion(except the Jedi, and the FO is clearly suppressing the Jedi's return). We only see a generalized persecution of religion in Rogue One. We need Rebels to tell us they drove(or thought they drove) entire species to extinction(Lesat and Geonosians).

    The politics is generally ill-defined and necessitates we make inferences based on Earthly references. The Empire = Nazi Germany, the First Order = neo-Nazis.

    The Republic/Rebellion/New Republic/Resistance all depends on a sanitized/idealized understanding of European and American democracy imo.

    The political entities, like the heroes, are broad archetypes.

    The other things is: dictatorships usually dont make *everyone* feel oppressed. Not even most people. The average, "Aryan" German was just fine in the Nazi regime. Obey the law, pay your taxes, be content when undesirables disappear and you'll be okay. They'd listen to and believe the propaganda. Jedha was a mining accident. That sort of thing.

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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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