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Lit Kylo vs Luke - Military victory vs Moral victory

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sidv88, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Yes! [​IMG]

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  2. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 8, 1999
    Actually, I was also going by what we're shown of the two organizations in the books and comics as well, not just the movies. If we are only going by the movies then I'd be forced to agree with you.

    I'm looking at everything and concluding that sequel politics are pretty thinly fleshed out.

    That was kind of my point when I said the vast majority of people wouldn't really care if food, sex, religion, and entertainment were not interfered with.

    Most uprisings or resistances depend on convincing a significant amount of people that their way of life is threatened. Yes, the movements might be initiated by minorities at first but they must convince a certain amount of people to be upset and take up arms.

    Hence, my question of what will change significantly under the First Order that will make resistance popular. Are they going to enslave every planet? Are they going to interfere with religion? Ban the free porn? Reduce the ability of people to enjoy their lives?

    Or are they just taking away representative government? If it's only the latter, then I find it hard to believe people will fight that hard. People fight hard for types of governments because they believe the type of government will affect some other way of life they have. They don't just fight for representative democracy just for the sake of representative democracy.

    At least with the Empire, I could surmise that Palpatine as a Sith Lord has some kind of weird religious motive going on that relates to being Sith which will ultimately affect the cultures of the people he rules. Hence, we see the Empire in stories actively interfere with and tinker with cultures in order to suit his needs which creates resentment amongst conquered populations.

    What exactly does the First Order want? Dunno. Stuff. A Supreme Leader. What do these Supreme Leaders want? I dunno.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  3. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    More taxes to fund their navy and their leaders' lavish lifestyles, that'll make the people riot :p

    I also wonder if they'd kidnap babies to become stormtroopers.

    And I'd like more context for Rose's comment that she "grew up" on a First Order mining world. That doesn't really fit with the FO coming from newly-independent Centrist worlds, and I doubt she's talking about a UR world.


    But yeah, they really need to flesh out the sides to this conflict more.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  4. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I dunno, if she is from an UR world, then it makes her a nice contrast to Finn.
     
  5. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    But it would make no sense. How did she join the Resistance? Why didn't the Resistance/Republic know of their might in the UR if refugees like the Tico sisters were escaping from it? Did she just join the Resistance in the hours since TFA, and if so, how is she not experiencing a culture shock and how does she know so much about the "regular galaxy"? Etc.
     
  6. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 12, 2012
    I literally just posted this in the TLJ thread but basically wherever Finn and Rose are from, it had to way out there and not a New Republic system or planet since the F.O. had to be tramping over Finn and Rose homeplanets for decades (and even the wimpy New Republic wouldn't be cool with the First Order just annexing planets a decade before anyone in the NR new the FO existed). Lil FN-2187 got taken as a child and unless they just grabbed kids from random ships to be troopers, he, and a lot of troopers, had to come from somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    If Rose joined recently then it may be that Leia knew of the FO being super-super huge....and made her conspiracy theories sound even crazier.
     
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  8. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    https://www.wired.com/2013/02/battle-of-hoth/

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  9. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    So then Luke's victory is clear.
     
  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Well, except for Luke having bantha poodoo to do with the loss of the Supremacy and Snoke.
     
  11. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    but that means bantha poodoo when the story is told. It will be a real fisher tale where Luke alone walked in on the Supremacy, duelled Snoke then force jumped down to the planet so hard that he broke Supremacy and then saved the Resistance by duelling Kylo and ten, Ten I tell you, other knights of Ren while being shot at by uncountable FO war-machines.

    EDIT: this question has probably been asked but do we have any explanation on how the tale of how Luke did a Gandalf got to Broomboy? I mean there was only FO people there witnessing it. Right?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  12. TheAvengerButton

    TheAvengerButton Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 11, 2011
    I'm assuming that the end of TLJ is a time jump of sorts, and he just heard after the survivors of Crait spread the Gospel.
     
  13. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Hopefully, they'll time skip ten or more years of Emperor Ren's rule.

    :)
     
  14. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Emperor Ren's rule will be at an end as soon as Rey builds a new saber and sneaks into his palace to face him. And not short enough it was.

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  15. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Those "learn swordsplay" lessons in the jedi books must really be impressive

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  16. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 28, 2006
    Dont you think the natural inference, if you're counting books etc to flesh the Empire and the Rebellion, that the Republic/Resistance are an extension of Rebel political aims while the First Order is an extension(though way more extreme and fanatical) of Imperial politics and policies? I feel we get a sense of that in Bloodline. First Order partisans and essentially pining for the glory days of the Empire. Leia wants a bit more decisiveness than the NR currently has, so more akin to the Rebel Alliance.

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  17. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Who needs books?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  18. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 6

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    Oct 4, 1998
    You can learn an awful lot about swordplay from the right books.

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    Since Rey seems to be a natural genius do you think she will have a hard time teaching the Jedi arts to less talented people?
     
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  20. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Why bother? Rey needs to learn from Luke's failure with Ben. Only train those who are talented, naturals and most importantly, worthy. Ben Solo was less than worthy of being a Jedi. Rey was the diamond in the rough.

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  21. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    To me it seems you missed my point. Rey seems to learn the Force easier and quicker then other characters we have seen, if most other people don't have such an easy time mastering the Force maybe she will have trouble teaching them since she will have problems seeing how they don't get it. Like how some sports stars make bad coaches since what's just natural for them is something that needs to be thought to most others
     
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  22. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 12, 2012
    Rey had an awakening in the Force, different rules for different folks.
     
  23. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    No, I got that point, I just don't think it'll ever be an issue. Luke's problem was that he tried to train too many people at once. Thirteen students and one teacher doesn't allow for much one-on-one teaching. There's a reason the Old Jedi forbade Jedi Masters to have more than one apprentice at a time.

    Rey should learn from this and only train one apprentice at a time, and even then, only train those who have an innate gift, those whom the Force truly speaks to. The way to rebuild the Jedi Order, ironically, is to use a teaching of the Sith.

    One Master, One Apprentice.

    Once the Jedi Master trains their apprentice to parity, they Knight them and then begin anew with another apprentice. The new Jedi Knight will do the same, and one by one, the Order is reborn.

    Luke's one and only class of new Jedi was a complete failure. None of his students were successful, they either died at Kylo's hand or joined him and betrayed their teachings.

    Basically, don't reach for the stars when you've just crawled out of the gutter. Stand on your own two feet first. That's what Luke got wrong and what Rey should learn from. Train one apprentice and train them right. Devote all your effort to it and create a worthy successor to the Jedi heritage.

    The anger in Ben Solo should have been a clear warning sign that the Jedi Path was not for him. If Luke simply hadn't trained him, Kylo Ren wouldn't have come to exist.
     
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  24. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    [​IMG]
     
  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    If Luke hadn't trained Ben then Snoke would have.

    Also, Luke is proof having anger in you isn't a sign of being a bad person.
     
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