Kyp Durron: Hero or Villain

"You sold ______, and I wont forget that, ever"


Very vague quote, but did he not say that to Borsk?

 

Yeah, he did say that Reaper.

"Wrong. If you read Part 1 of Rebirth starting on Chapter 5, p. 36 to p.80 up to the beginning of Part 2 in Rebirth, you will find nothing but the calm demeanor of Luke Skywalker: expecting, anticipating and accepting. It is Mara who blows up (p.39, Rebirth"

I didn't mean in rebirth. Pretty sure Luke blows up in Conquest and it's not about the arrest. He just runs away from the NR version of cops on that one, which is probably illegal, evading arrest and all that. What he blows up about is the Yavin thing and how he's prohibited to go there and the NR won't help and makes claims that it's Borsk's fault, that he sold them out and basically he blows up at him.

 

RF: Please find that quote for me, because I certainly cannot. And certainly not in Rebirth.

Jarik - First you say:

And Luke had a warrant out for his arrest and yelled at and insulted the Chief of STate to his face.

That is an ambiguous statement to begin with but since Luke could not "have a warrant out for [Borsk's] arrest", I assume the warrant out for Luke's arrest. And this happens in Rebirth. And then you say:

I didn't mean in rebirth. Pretty sure Luke blows up in Conquest and it's not about the arrest.

Ok first, you're saying Luke "yelled and insulted the Chief of STate at his face" about the arrest {which WAS in Rebirth), and now you're retracting that by saying that it wasn't really in Rebirth and it's not about the arrest. Ok, now I'm confused. What exactly are you saying? And if you make any references about what Luke is saying, please refer me to the book and page number so I can check it out. Thanks. Because even in the most recent book, Rebirth, Luke clearly tries to appease both sides, the NR and Kyp's faction. The quote I referenced in my earlier post is a testament to this fact.

 

It was a very bad sentence on my part.

In Rebirththe warrant is out for Luke's arrest.

In Conquest Luke blows up at Borsk. I'll go look for the exact quote now.

 

It's on page 121 - 125 of Conquest. Jaina gets a little upset at Borsk too. Some unpleasentries among the 3 of them. Don't want to type the all thing. Read it though. It's quite good. Luke going after Borsk verbally because of past actions by Borsk and Borsk striking back verbally. Luke threatens him and Borsk threatens punishment back at him. Borsk insults Luke's sister and brother in law. Luke gets mad at that. Very divisive.

 

Jarik, you're absolutely right. It is Jaina who blows up and once again, it is Luke who calms her. When it becomes apparent that Borsk & the NR knew of the YV's occupation of Yavin IV, Luke once again holds back anger. Luke answers calmly and authoritively, "You sold my students out. I won't forget that. Ever." In the end, Jaina gets in the last word. This whole situation can be described by everything but Luke's attempt to divide which was your original claim. On the contrary, Luke held back "blowing up." The whole issue is quite moot because Luke does everything in his power in Rebirth to appease the NR in Rebirth. He says outright that he will do everything in his power to keep the jedi out of the military's way.

 

Luke calmly THREATENED Borsk. Good grief, could he show, Kypness? People cant have that!



If you didnt guess, I was being sarcastic

 

Yes, Jaina does blow up. So does Luke. It was not Luke's intent to divide but he still does. As Reaper said Luke threatened Borsk. I was hoping not to have to post quotes, but you obviously read only bits and pieces:

Luke: "We're following our Jedi mandate, Chief Fey'lya. We protect. We serve. I'm sorry if these goals are incompatible with yours."

Oh, cold, very divisive. Claiming that Fel'lya is only out for himself and is ignoring the people of the galaxy. (even if true not a thing to say if chasing unity.) and Fel'lya picked up on the insult. He replies

Fel'lya: "The arrogance. The sheer arrogance. And you wonder why you are unliked.

After this: Luke felt matters rushing to a heated conclusion and knew that part of it was his fault.

later:

Luke bore down on the Chief of State with his gaze, "I ask again," he said softly, "You knew the Vong were going to Yavin and you didn't see fit to warn me."

Ohh, bearing down. That's threatening and he speaks condenscendingly. Not nice, Luke.

Luke: "You sold my students out. I won't ever forget that. Ever."

Threatening again are we

Luke: "Oh it's clear all right," Luke replied, "Suddenly a lot of things are very clear indeed."

I'm sure we all know what he's implying.

And then at the end Jaina:

Jaina: "Chief Fel'lya, you are a poor excuse for a sentient being. I hope one day you really smell the stink in your heart and choke on the fumes."

Whoopsie, that prolly hurts unity a little and perhaps forments division....maybe. Fel'lya of course snapped back.

 

You have to read the sublties and what people actually mean by what they say. Luke insulted Borsk quite a bit in there. And that statement you use about not forgetting that Borsk sold him out. That's a threat. Especially so, when you see Luke throws in another sentence comprised of only "Ever." It means you better not meet me in a dark alley. He's threatening Borsk. Sure he may never act on it, but he's still threatening.

And it didn't say, "Luke answers calmly and authoritively" as you claim. There is no description to how he says it. Just a quote. It says exactly:

Luke narrowed his eyes. "You sold my students out. I won't forget that. Ever."

 

Jarik, if I am ever in court, I want you as my lawyer

 

Thanks. My dad's a lawyer.

I've actually been looking into career choices now. Narrowed it down to 3 or 4 of them and lawyer is one. So you never know. The odds against it will be high, but all you have to do is committ a highly publicized crime in like 10 years that you could get into a lot of trouble for and then come see if I ever did go into law. What do you think?

 

Once again, I don't find any of that a deliberate attempt on the part of Luke to divorce the jedi from the NR. You said it yourself. Even if it was insulting, it was a personal insult to Borsk, and certainly not to the NR gov't in general. And once again, the whole issue in Conquest is a non-issue because I have already shown that Luke does everything in his power to still keep the jedi on good terms with the NR in Rebirth. Even following that conversation in Conquest, Luke forbids Mara and himself to help Karrde at Yavin IV when Shada returns to Coruscant for supplies. He clearly states that this would hinder unity in the eyes of the NR (p.128, Conquest):

"We'll take the Jade Shadow," Mara said. "I can convert some space. It may still be a little cramped, with all of the kids, but she'll do the job."

"You and I can't leave Coruscant," Luke said bluntly.

Mara's eyes flashed. "Skywalker, if this is about my 'delicate state,' you can shove - "

"It's not Mara. We can't attract suspicion. Fey'lya's watching us. it'll be hard enough to get Jacen and Jaina out without raising eyebrows, but that can be done."

So for the sake of not showing "unsanctioned jedi activity," in the eyes of the NR, Luke is forbidding Mara and himself to go rescue the kids themselves. Yet, he obviously doesn't want to lose kids so he sends Jaina & Jacen to find Booster, who surely does not represent the jedi even though has relatives that do. Luke is doing everything to stay on good terms with the NR. Kyp's actions exacerbate ties between the jedi and NR like none of Luke's words or actions ever possibly could.

If you feel you do not need the NR and its military, that is another issue...

 

You're right. His intentions are to remain united and not be divisive. But you ignored all the quotes I brought up. He may have acted betetr after that, but the damage was done. And when you have to use somebody not going to rescue somebody in deadly peril as an argument for your side then there's something wrong. ANd he does send help as you say, just doesn't o himself.

"don't find any of that a deliberate attempt on the part of Luke to divorce the jedi from the NR."

It doesn't matter if it is deliberate. Kyp's not alienating anybody deliberatly He's trying to save lives. Whether Luke did it deliberatly or not, he still did it. "Do or do not. There is no try." Think about that a little bit and it means the same thing. He didn't do it deliberatly but he did it and that's what matters.

"Kyp's actions exacerbate ties between the jedi and NR like none of Luke's words or actions ever possibly could."

Kyp, only alienated a small potion of it. Wedge isn't even active anymore. Most NR citizens love Kyp. Luke wne staright to Borsk, commander in CHIEF and insulted him to his face. Maybe he didn't want to alienate but he obviously could not hold it back and he alienated a lot.

"If you feel you do not need the NR and its military, that is another issue..."

They do need it. They should act in concert with it. Why wasn't Luke negotiating this He was wasting time with a Great River that has accomplished nothing. He should have been working on this.

"Luke is doing everything to stay on good terms with the NR."

Whoopsie, shouldn't have insulted the NR's leader to his face then and imply threats against him that any 1st grader could understand.

 

I just want to return to your original claim because it is easy to lose focus when you delve into details like we are:

...[Luke] yelled at and insulted the Chief of STate to his face. He's not really helping sow unity much, so don't act like none of the division is his fault.

From examples in the EoV duology which I've already stated above and numerous others I could point out, Luke clearly tries to unite.

Whereas you're asking me to read the subtleties and read in between the lines, I am giving you the facts.

The facts are:

1. Luke threatening Borsk is hearsay. A threat is an expression with the intention of inflicting pain, injury, evil or punishment. Obviously, Luke did not promise any of these in his supposed "threat." The fact is I could take it as a grudge Luke will keep against Borsk personally. Reading between the lines is one thing, but what I'm saying here is a matter of fact.

2. Just as you say you do not see evidence of Luke's calm demeanor in making that supposed "threat" I equally do not say any evidence of Luke yelling at Borsk, which is what you originally claimed.

3. Ok, so now let's return once again to your original claim, which is two-fold in my mind. One, that Luke is yelling and two, that Luke is threatening. Both arguments are circumstantial at best.

4. Since I have shown with ample evidence that Luke unites (which I note you did not address), there is nothing to support your claim that Luke is to be blamed for the division.

 

"Luke threatening Borsk is hearsay."

What do you mean? You read the books. It's written directly right there. It's not hearsay. He's being threatening and condescending.

"Just as you say you do not see evidence of Luke's calm demeanor in making that supposed "threat" I equally do not say any evidence of Luke yelling at Borsk, which is what you originally claimed."

You're right. Luke does appear calm. He is likewise not yelling. I was wrong on that fact I realize after checking the book. However, he still threatened and spoke condescendingly. He just didn't raise his voise. And when someone narrows their eyes and clamly and clearly with emphasize on every word and threatens you, it's damn scary and it made Borsk mad.

"Ok, so now let's return once again to your original claim, which is two-fold in my mind. One, that Luke is yelling and two, that Luke is threatening. Both arguments are circumstantial at best."

Ok, Luke is not yelling. He is, however, threatening, condenscending, and insulting.

"Since I have shown with ample evidence that Luke unites (which I note you did not address), there is nothing to support your claim that Luke is to be blamed for the division."

I did comment on it. I said you were right. He does try to hold it together. However, he did more damage than he can possible repair in those 4 pages I showed you. I don't know what you mean I showed no evidence. I gave you 4 pages in which Luke isults, threatens and speaks condenscendingly to Borsk, the leader of the NR and the Commander in Chief of its military. That can be very divisive, in fact it IS very divisive. When one leader talks to another like that they divide. They start to not like each other and distrust each other. This creates division.

"Obviously, Luke did not promise any of these in his supposed "threat.""

Dont' be so naive. Just cause he didn't come out and say. I will cut off your arm doesn't mean he wasn't threatening. He was threatening and Borsk knew it. Borsk replies, "I see. Instead of answering my question you threaten me." Skywalker is then dismissed and never denies the accusation that he was threatening Borsk.

 

Jarik -

It doesn't matter if it is deliberate...

I'll say it better: I don't find any of the quotes that you point out an attempt by Luke to divorce the jedi from the NR. Happy now?

Finally, whether Luke intends to threaten or not is immaterial to the question of disunity. Borsk takes Luke's statement as a threat. Obviously, Borsk is not the only person who represents the NR, but as Chief of State, Borsk is alienated by Kyp's "unsanctioned jedi activity" far more than Luke's supposed threat. That is an opinion, obviously.

 

"I'll say it better: I don't find any of the quotes that you point out an attempt by Luke to divorce the jedi from the NR. Happy now?"

He's not attempting to divorce the Jedi from the NR. I'm not sure what he's attempting. He let his emotions take over and he insulted, threatened, and spoke condenscendingly to Borsk. The bottom line is that what he did was very divisive.

"Borsk is alienated by Kyp's "unsanctioned jedi activity" far more than Luke's supposed threat."

How so?

"That is an opinion, obviously"

Which one's an opinion?

"Finally, whether Luke intends to threaten or not is immaterial to the question of disunity. Borsk takes Luke's statement as a threat."

You're right. What is material to it is what it is taken as. And I have to believe everybody takes it as a threat. Everybody who speaks up certainly does.

 

Ok, I'm here in a computer lab on campus immediately after a test, and getting ready to see a screening of Life As A House (Hayden's new movie), so I don't have time to delve into this fully. I thought I'd add my comments though.

First of all, great debating on the part of both Vergere and Jarik. Good topic too.

Again, Vergere, check that thermometer in Hell. I'm in complete agreement with you. That's a nasty habit I've had lately.

The fact of the matter is, in that situation, that Luke is showing almost inhuman restraint after being told that the NR is going to abandon a group of children, children that he has taught himself, to whatever the VOng will do to them simply because they are Jedi and Borsk Fey'lya sees them as a liability. Luke is being damned for transmitting veiled threats. Frankly, I saw nothing of the sort. I thought what Luke stated was merely truth, and if Borsk took his comments in a threatening sense, so be it. YOu say Luke is condescending? As if Borsk isn't? He does nothing but try to belittle Luke, and make him seem less important.

"Arrogance. Sheer arrogance."

NOthing of the kind. Merely honesty. The last comment of LUke's WAS a threat, and completely justified in my mind. I'll write more later, gotta go.

JMA

 

"YOu say Luke is condescending? As if Borsk isn't? He does nothing but try to belittle Luke, and make him seem less important."

Borsk was condenscending as well. This, however, only adds to the divisiveness.

NOthing of the kind. Merely honesty. The last comment of LUke's WAS a threat, and completely justified in my mind. I'll write more later, gotta go."

Sure it was justified. I was kinda happy when he finally said that. However, that doesn't dismiss the fact that it causes a lot of divisivness, which was what I was trying to prove that Luke has caused.

"First of all, great debating on the part of both Vergere and Jarik. Good topic too."

Thanks. Especially coming from you. You've had some great debates in the past yourself. And we seem to be constantly locked in debate about Kyp with a few months in between each. I bet SbS will really launch one.

And know I'm off to, for the day at least.

 

I think we are way too immersed in an argument which is way left-field. To question Luke's motives in response to Kyp's blatant villainy, which has long been argued in this thread is dodging the issue at hand. I will draw a courtroom analogy since someone brought it up. Let's suppose a defendant is accused of stealing. That defendant is brought to trial. The defendant's lawyer brings up that some other random person X steals also. That neither absolves the defendant from stealing nor confirms X of stealing until he undergoes a similar trial! Similarly, so many people have argued Kyp's villainy and given concrete examples to that fact. If you wish to refute these examples, fine, but accusing Luke of dividing also is dodging the issue. Nevermind that Luke has done everything in his power to the contrary. Despite all this, I will return to defending Luke in a thread questioning Kyp's character.

Dont' be so naive. Just cause [Luke] didn't come out and say, I will cut off your arm doesn't mean he wasn't threatening.

It's not naive. Luke threatening Borsk is hearsay because only Luke knows for sure how he meant it. Reading between the lines and reading subtleties is all well and good but when you say Luke threatened Borsk, you are speculating on reading Luke's thoughts, which are never revealed to us. That is a fact. Borsk takes the comment as a threat though. That is all you can claim. As such, you can also show the possible disunity that this may cause. But I refuse to accept Luke's comments as a threat in and of themselves. For all we know, it could mean holding a simple grudge against Borsk personally.

You ask how is Borsk alienated by Kyp more so than Luke. Well, it is a well-known fact that the NR's major gripe with the jedi are their elitist behavior. Another words, "unsanctioned jedi activity," and acting self-righteous and above the NR government as if it never existed. Kyp spearheads such a cause by policing smugglers despite lacking the authority to do so. He also spearheads the cause of acting above the NR by deceiving NR military leaders. That is much more insulting to the NR because it threatens their very purpose & existence.

I was kinda happy when [Luke] finally said that. However, that doesn't dismiss the fact that it causes a lot of divisivness, which was what I was trying to prove that Luke has caused.

The confrontation between Luke and Borsk is strictly personal. Luke has never alienated the NR entity, which is what Kyp does by manipulating the NR and exploiting its firepower to accomplish his notion of what "needs to done." Not only that, the general NR body and its broad-based consituents are far removed from Kyp because Kyp acts above them.

Bottom line: Kyp is villainous by nature.

 

bottom line below your bottom line: No he isnt

bottom line below that one too: Kyp is doing his job, and the NR citizens love him (Remember the BP Hutt). Luke isnt doing anything for them as of now, and is threatening Chief of States

 

Hutt's love Kyp Durron. Is this such a good thing?

If a drug-smuggling, slaving, self-centered, cruel and manevolent creatures such as a Hutt claimed to respect and admire you, wouldn't you start to wonder if your actions have been entirely wholesome?

 

Actually, Randa wasn't that bad a Hutt, he took some noble actions at BP.

(Oops! Did I insult Randa? To Hutt, 'noble' is probably an insult )

Still, he IS a Hutt....

 

I'mm on my lapyop ow. Screwed up keyboard. Will post better when at home.

If you thinkit was only persoal betwee Borsk then you are wrong. It was an official meetingandwhen you iinsulttheleader of te NR it will not stay personal.

Will better address this and everythiing else whhhen II get homme.

 

AAAARGH! VONG!

Sorry, your lapyop scared me