Kyp Durron: Hero or Villain

Here's another example of the consequences of Kyp's aggressive actions which serve to divorce the jedi from the GFFA & NR. All the jedi are having to pay for the actions of a few.

Jacen meets the Vice-Director to plead for supplies for the refugees of the planet of Duro starting on p.165 (BP, hardcover). When it is clear that the Vice-Director is threatened by jedi, Jacen comments (p.167):

"Sir, I'm just asking for the chemicals we need to grow food. I have no intention of threatening you."

"No?" the vice-director asked. "Your enabling of Centerpoint Station, our near neighbor

{Note that the vice-director is accusing Jacen of something Anakin did}, changed the power balance in our region. Jedi make me nervous. Especially young ones who use words like urrrgent. Often they don't have the maturity to know when to back down."

At this point, Jacen's thoughts are revealed to us:

Thank you, Kyp Durron, Jacen muttered to himself. He hoped Anakin was paying attention. "Sir, it was no Jedi who fired Centerpoint."

Clearly, many GFFA residents, such as the Vice-Director here, are threatened by aggressive & over-zealous jedi who "don't...know when to back down." (like Kyp). Jacen is a upset at the headstrong and self-righteous jedi who think themselves above and better than the rest of the GFFA residents. These jedi make it impossible to talk to & negotiate at a time when refugees need it most. By this example also, these jedi clearly alienate those people whose cause they believe they are fighting for. Kyp spearheads such a cause by far.

 

Jarik-

If you thinkit was only persoal betwee Borsk [and Luke] then you are wrong.

It was simply personal for a variety of reasons:

• Luke following that conversation in Conquest does not risk going to save the Jedi himself because he feels it would threaten the tenuous relationship that the Jedi and NR already share. (I've quoted this material in a previous post in this thread)
• In Rebirth, Luke clearly states he will do everything in his power to have the Jedi stay out of the NR military's way (I also reference this in a previous post)


• Finally, even Borsk himself rescinds the arrest on Luke & Mara (p.290, Rebirth). If Borsk has taken the "threat" as anything but personal, he would not acknowledge that he may need the jedi in the future as he does on the bottom of p.290 to p.291 of Rebirth:
  

  "I have deniability, Master Skywalker. I want to keep it that way, for the time being." [Borsk] paused. "In time, things may change."

  "I think I understand you Chief," Luke said. In time we Jedi may be your only hope.

Another words, personal differences aside, both Luke and Borsk realize that they need the entity that the other represents.

 

"Similarly, so many people have argued Kyp's villainy and given concrete examples to that fact. If you wish to refute these examples, fine, but accusing Luke of dividing also is dodging the issue."

I don't realy rememeber how we gt into it. Basically I was just showing that Luke is also dividing but you're not condemning him for it. Nothing Kyp has done with the Vong is villanious.

"It's not naive. Luke threatening Borsk is hearsay because only Luke knows for sure how he meant it."

Everybody over the age 8, knows how he meant it.

"For all we know, it could mean holding a simple grudge against Borsk personally."

I'm sure Luke does hold a grudge against him pesonally, but when you threaten, inult, or speak condenscendingly to him in a public forum, it leaves the personal realm. He insulted Borsk personally and now there is a dvision between Borsk's government, the NR and Luke's faction, the Jedi.

"You ask how is Borsk alienated by Kyp more so than Luke. Well, it is a well-known fact that the NR's major gripe with the jedi are their elitist behavior. Another words, "unsanctioned jedi activity," and acting self-righteous and above the NR government as if it never existed."

The NR is not alienated by Kyp helping them fight the Vong. And he is elite. Not many people can do what he can. He, however, does not act as if he';s better than anyone else.

"He also spearheads the cause of acting above the NR by deceiving NR military leaders. That is much more insulting to the NR because it threatens their very purpose & existence."

I think it's much more insulting for you to tell the NR's leader that he doesn't care about the NR straight to his face as Luke did. And then threaten him and speak condenscendingly. And yes decieving was bad. I have not denied that Kyp has strained relations with the NR. Merely pointed out that Luke has done the same. Even though the deceiving was bad it was the only way to get a necessary job done. Ans those same military leaders have done much of this lying in their careers. Except Krey'fey, who probably has but we haven't seen much of him, so I can't be sure.

"The confrontation between Luke and Borsk is strictly personal. Luke has never alienated the NR entity"

It is not strictly personal. You insult a leader to his face in a public forum and it will affect his policy decisions. Insulting a leader and threatening him is very divisive. The relationship becomes very strained. Why do you think politicians are always so nice to each other in meetings even when they hate the other guy. Cause they know if they insult him then it will be very divisive for thir nations.

"Bottom line: Kyp is villainous by nature."

By nature Kyp wants to help people. Even when he makes mistakes it's cause he's trying to help people.

"Hutt's love Kyp Durron. Is this such a good thing?"

Randa was merely the example he provided. Most of the general populace loves Kyp. And as menioned below Randa was not a bad Hutt. You can't judge sentients based on their species. Sure most Hutts break the law and are morally corrupt. However, Randa appeared to be ok.

"Still, he IS a Hutt...."

Stereotyping.



Regarding your last post. It may have been personal or not, but even if it was it will affect the political realm.

"he would not acknowledge that he may need the jedi in the future as he does on the bottom of p.290 to p.291 of Rebirth:"

Why wouldn't he. It's obvious he will need them. Borsk is not an idiot.

And the arrest was basically cause of the Senate. It wasn't Borsk's doing. Even so, Borsk does not like Luke much. And those actuions were divisive. We'll see if they pull back together, but they are still at best catious allies, both suspicious of the other. And the NR is ready to stab a knife into the heart of the Jedi if necessary.

""I have deniability, Master Skywalker. I want to keep it that way, for the time being." [Borsk] paused. "In time, things may change.""

he doesn't say which way they will change. Could go either way.

"Luke

 

Jarik-

Yep and the tenuous relationship was cause of what Luke said directly to Borsk 1 book earlier.

Wrong. For reasons stated in numerouns other posts, the tenuous relationship is caused by Kyp and his faction acting above the NR. As I've argued before, Luke's statements were strictly personal. Neither Borsk nor Luke will deny the entity that the other represents. You counter by saying that Borsk is not stupid. But that isn't the point! The point is, despite Luke's supposed "threat" to divide, Borsk himself revokes the arrest on Luke & Mara. That is a sign of unification, not division. Kyp's actions continue to divide. And for countless other reasons that we've outlined, Kyp's actions are far more divisive than Luke's words could ever be.

 

but WHY revoke the arrest? Maybe he is worried this Jedi that threatened him will start working against them. Maybe he had a dream where a giant hippo told him to. You dont know the facts in that area, you cant assume

 

Oh, comon. That was the easy quote to reply to. ANybody could refute that. I sincerely wondered if I should even include it. Whatb about everything else I said?

The tenuous relationship is caused by both Luke and Kyp. I do not deny Kyp has caused divisiveness. I don't see how you can deny that Luke has when I showed you 4 pages in which he insults, threatens and condenscendingly speaks to the leader of the NR.

"Neither Borsk nor Luke will deny the entity that the other represents."

The NR does all but sanction the kidnappings of Jedi.

"Luke's statements were strictly personal. "

Probably but it doesn't really matter. He knew they would be divisive and they were.

"The point is, despite Luke's supposed "threat" to divide, Borsk himself revokes the arrest on Luke & Mara"

That's cause the Senate wanted to arrest him in the first place. Borsk didn't. Borsk doesn't like him and is ready to kill the Jedi if he must, but he realizes he may need them later.

"That is a sign of unification, not division."

That is a sign tat Borsk won't throw away the Jedi until he's sure that they are unneeded or until the Vong get a little closer. He's made it clear that Luke is "unliked".

"Kyp's actions are far more divisive than Luke's words could ever be."

Maybe, maybe not. Either way Luke's actions are still divsive.

 

Ok.

As my final word on the "Is Kyp a villain" line of thought, I'm offering this closing statement:

What it comes down to in the end is intentions. Not necessarily actions. Intentions. What did Kyp intend to do by destroying the worldship? He intended to harm Vong children and other non-military personnel. Why? To send the Vong a message. Kyp Durron, an extremely strong Force-sensitive, acted with the intention of harming civilians. That is the bottom line. How can anyone argue that that is not villainous? Are the actions of the terrorists on the 11th of September villainous? Those terrorists acted with the intent to harm American non-military (and military) personnel. Why? To send the US a message. Are those people considered to be villainous? LORD YES. Now I'm not saying Kyp is a carbon copy of those people. Obviously, Kyp wants to rid the NR of a bloodthirsty group of invaders. But his actions in THAT INSTANCE or extremely similar. So, is Kyp Durron a villain or a hero in my mind?

A villain, without a doubt.

Now, onto the new line of thought concerning Luke and Borsk.

Ok now, I don't agree with Jarik about much as far as this topic goes, but I am going to have to agree with him on this one point.

Vergere, he's right. It is unquestionably safe to assume that Luke is threatening Borsk, at least with his last comment of the conversation. I know we can't see what Luke is thinking at the time, but we can assume it with almost no margin of error. Why? Because he's a human being. If someone were to come up to you and say "You sold out my family. I'm not going to forget that." with narrowed eyes and a tense expression, unless you're in a play or movie you would probably assume that person was threatening you. And you'd be right to think so. But I think we need to look at the type of threat here.

Luke: "You sold my students out, I'm not going to forget that."

DOES NOT EQUAL

Luke: "You just wait till I get you alone in a back alley, and then we'll see what's what. I'm gonna knock you into next week."

It comes closer to equaling

Luke: "You need to know that by this action, you forfeited all rights to me, or my Jedi, helping YOU PERSONALLY in any way above and beyond the call of Jedi duty. I will continue to support the new republic, and as long as you are that leader, I will publicly support you. But I won't offer you one drop of personal help beyond that."

He's not physically threatning him. He's threatening him with the knowledge that if Borsk ever needs a personal favor, or a safety net, in his lifetime, he's going to have to look elsewhere for it. Neither Luke nor his Jedi are going to be the ones to offer it.

JMA

 

"What it comes down to in the end is intentions. Not necessarily actions. Intentions. What did Kyp intend to do by destroying the worldship? He intended to harm Vong children and other non-military personnel. Why? To send the Vong a message. Kyp Durron, an extremely strong Force-sensitive, acted with the intention of harming civilians. That is the bottom line. How can anyone argue that that is not villainous? Are the actions of the terrorists on the 11th of September villainous? Those terrorists acted with the intent to harm American non-military (and military) personnel. Why? To send the US a message. Are those people considered to be villainous? LORD YES. Now I'm not saying Kyp is a carbon copy of those people. Obviously, Kyp wants to rid the NR of a bloodthirsty group of invaders. But his actions in THAT INSTANCE or extremely similar. So, is Kyp Durron a villain or a hero in my mind?"

We do not know civilians were on that ship. Why would they be. It was not completed. We have seen the Worldships used militarily. Kyp's statement does not necessarily mean he thinks he killed civilians. Merely that he hit them at home. Hitting our Pentagon hit us at home. It is, however, a military target. HGitting them at their military stations is hittingn them at home and civilians have died sadly, but it was a military target. And civilians do live around it and may have been it, but it's function does involve military. Once again we have seen worldships used militarily. We have not seen the Twin Towers used militarily. And I prefer not to use allusions to these recent events. People may not mean anything by it, but it can be taken as cold and callous to reference such a recent disaster as this, not that those were your intentions though. (I am now listening to "I Can Be Your Hero" with the NY sound bites put in. It's horrible what happened. Those people who did it are horrible people. My heart goes out to eveybody. I'm lucky. I live in NJ. I can see where the Twin Towers should be. If I had bin Laden or any of the Taliban in my sights I don't think I would hesitate to pull the trigger.

Anyway:

"DOES NOT EQUAL"

Perhaps, but either way it doesn't endear him to Borsk. It is divisive and that was my only point on that matter.

 

"We do not know civilians were on that ship."

Of course he knew that. His intentions are to harm the civilians on the dying worldships already in circulation, by destroying this new one.

JMA

 

no civilians would be on a WOrldship still being constructed

 

Well, then civilians were not on the worldship that was destroyed. We have not actually seen any civilians on the other worldships. Only warriors and shapers. Besides it's their own fault for sending in the civilians in inferior ships or for leaving them out there and not transferring to planet side. Why should we care more about their civilians than we do, especially when we have not seen a single civilian in existence.

 

This debate has become so circular in nature, we are resorting to old arguments and claims that were proposed and disposed of long ago.

 

sounds like retreating talk



j/k

 

"This debate has become so circular in nature, we are resorting to old arguments and claims that were proposed and disposed of long ago."

Huh? Yeah. It may have. Does that mean you're stopping.


Wow, JMA. Did we agree on something? Are the pigs flying yet?

 

"We have not actually seen any civilians on the other worldships. Only warriors and shapers."

Jarik, what do you think they transported the majority of their population to our galaxy in? Their worldships are where they house their general population. Kyp KNEW that there weren't many civilians on one being created. He also knows that their mature worldships are dying. He knows they need a place to keep their civilians. Rather than attack a heavily guarded worldship, he attacked a new one that the Vong had no idea he knew about. This harms them more than killing a full one, because he

A) Destroys a brand new worldship, therefore forcing the Vong to have wasted huge amounts of resources and time.

B) Is able to destroy the population of an entire mature, and dying, worldship without firing a shot.

Look, it shouldn't be up for debate that what Kyp wanted is to harm civilians. That's all that matters. He wanted to kill Vong civilians.

"Their civilians aren't sacrosanct if ours aren't."

It doesn't get any plainer than that.

"Why should we care more about their civilians than we do"

Well, because we (meaning the NR, and more importantly, the Jedi) are not bloodthirsty savages. We're SUPPOSED to be better people than they are. We're supposed to care about things such as morals, and the consequences of our actions.

JMA

 

JMA, if I destoyed a house ina war, and noone died, it shows their civilians arent sacntuwhateverthatwordwas. No deaths involved there

 

"Jarik, what do you think they transported the majority of their population to our galaxy in?"

Why do you think they transported a large majority of their population to the GFFA. Wouldn't it make more sense to gain a stronghold before sending the civilians in. Naturally the warriors have come first. Why do you even think civilians exist in their society. We have seen nobody not involved with the war. We have seen no civilians.

"Well, because we (meaning the NR, and more importantly, the Jedi) are not bloodthirsty savages."

Well, they're not bloodthirsty savages. They simply have a different religion. What they are doing is till wrong of course though.

""Their civilians aren't sacrosanct if ours aren't.""

Large difference between this and "I want to kill all of their civilians." The first is merely him warning them to back off. He killed few people in doing it, and they can still save the civilians (if they exist) by diverting ships meant for fighting against and invading NR held worlds.

"A) Destroys a brand new worldship, therefore forcing the Vong to have wasted huge amounts of resources and time.
B) Is able to destroy the population of an entire mature, and dying, worldship without firing a shot."

C) If the Vong do work to save the "civilians" if they do exist then they must divert ships meant to kill more NR planets.

This sounds like a minor victory to me.

"We're supposed to care about things such as morals, and the consequences of our actions."

If the NR does not strike back and hit the Vong at home, if all battles take place on NR gound then the NR will lose more people. It will be their blood staining the ground. That is the consequence of the action of not attacking: of inaction if I may put it that way.

 

"JMA, if I destoyed a house ina war, and noone died, it shows their civilians arent sacntuwhateverthatwordwas. No deaths involved there "

Was that house a new orphanage, being built to replace one that is bursting with people, but in such bad shape that it should be condemned, ready to fall apart any second? That's basically what Kyp's destroying of the new worldship does.

JMA

 

"Was that house a new orphanage, being built to replace one that is bursting with people, but in such bad shape that it should be condemned, ready to fall apart any second? That's basically what Kyp's destroying of the new worldship does."

Worldships have military capability. Orphanages to my knowledge do not. Attacking the orphanage would be pure terorsim, but since worldships have and can be used militarily they are a legitimate military target. Rememebr Vector Prime the worldships were used as landing craft and came equipped with plasma cannons.

 

I thought what Kyp meant by YV sivs is that they hadn't fought the NR yet. So they didn't know if they were military or not. but he have yet to see a Vong that doen't want to fight or do harm to something.

 

SbS spoilers



















Well, apparantly Luke is now out there fighting with Kyp.

 

Yay! ReaperFett has the Kyp icon!! I wanted to get that one, but I liked the Jaina one more Plus, it would help people realize I'm a chick a little better!

Jae Angel

 

Kyp is a very bad military leader...

Yes, he's angry. Yes he's doing very questionable acts but like the guy who flames Islamic lists and says "YOUR GOING TO DIE!" he's mostly causing alot of hot air to occur.

Yes he's destroyed a Yzzumng Vong ship but I can't blame him for destroying the vessel because I'm certain he believed it might be something dangerous...

He may think it's a Vong worldship for carrying civilian population but I doubt he knows everything or even suspects it all.

No worse than a villain he's a fool.

He lies and destroys the trust of the Jedi's fondest Military leader and all those under his command as well as a fellow Jedi Knight's trust in him.

He furthermore is accomplishing nothing of importance while Luke a New Republic General is devising long term military strategy that seems to be having large effects for the benefit of the Republic.

Kyp is a Smuggler hunter and a Miner. Luke is a former General whose fought under virtually every environmental condition and commanded men in war-time situations in virtually every branch.

He should trust him.

 

Luke neevr made General first of all. He retired as a Commander. Seond of all Luke never had a grand master plan. Third of all SbS Spoilers














now that Luke is fighting as Kyp advocated and doing so with Kyp at his side the Jedi and the NR are being a lot more succeessful and effective than they were before. Fourth of all I will not post here anymore as constantly giving spoiler space will drive me mad.

 

Kyp is not a villian he's a tortured soul.