Kyp similar to Qui - Gon

Kyp didn't use a mind trick. Qui-Gon has pressed other people into helping him in JA books. Not with mind tricks, but with subtle manipulations.

 

No, Kyp dosn't use mind tricks... he just rips people memories from their heads.

 

The Crisis with the Vong isn't about Kyp or Luke or right or wrong. It's about what's the best way to handle the situation.

I think it was Kyp's apprentice that was destroyed at the hands of the Vong. The Jedi have to be intelligent in how they handle this. Kyp, along with his dark side nature in which he has never been able to subdue, tries to go against a seemingly invincible enemy knowing he can't do much no matter how hard he tries instead of following Luke's example. Qui-Gon Jinn would have agreed with how Luke was handling this situation because he would have done the same thing.

(We will be patient). {he says this to Anakin Skywalker when they come aboard the Queen's starship.

The Jedi, who is limited in number, can do but so much anyhow.

I give Kyp credit though. He is brave, but insubordinate.

 

Kyp: "I do what I must." -Rebirth

Qui-Gon Jinn: "I do what I must." -TPM

 

Well, mjerome3, it appears as if you have said about the exact same thing as you did in your last post and just ignored everything I said about it, so I'll just refrain from comment this time.

 

In esence they are still the same. They both see what needs to be done and act upon it, weather it's qui gon insisting on training anikin or kyp insisting on attacking the vong. Even when their most superior colleges sugest againt, they act.

 

Jarik:

What more needs to be said? This is not an arguable debate about Kyp Durron and Luke Skywalker. It's about certain similarities between Qui-Gon Jinn and Kyp. I've given my take on it. You made it out to be more than what it was.

I take it that you must like Kyp.

 

"No, Kyp dosn't use mind tricks... he just rips people memories from their heads."

We're not talking about that. We're talking about NJO Kyp.....I think.

"What more needs to be said? This is not an arguable debate about Kyp Durron and Luke Skywalker. It's about certain similarities between Qui-Gon Jinn and Kyp. I've given my take on it. You made it out to be more than what it was. I take it that you must like Kyp."

Well, then there was no need to repeat yourself. I just like it when people are unfair to Kyp. He has only been protecting the galaxy. He has doe nothing wrong. You people ae prosecuting him before he committs a crime and I don't believe that he will committ a crime.

 

I'm prosecuting him for what he's done:

Mass murder
Psychic Assault (Best description for the Qwi Xux thing)
Knowingly providing fabricated intelligence to Rogue Squadron

 

I find it hard to believe people don't think the jedi should attack the vong. We know how tradic the evnts were at the WTC but this is more like if they had invaded New York killed all the people living there and then built their own cities. If that had happened is it not right to attack the invaders and drive them out.

I think Kyp is a very brave man trying to save the galaxy. Allies bombed Germany and destroyed Dresden. In a war it is nesscary to attack. Luke does not care about the deaths as long as they are not jedi or family. When Jacen got captured Luke did not care about not fighting. Kyp fights for everyone. Luke fights for family.

 

you obviously have not read the books darth skycralwer.
neither kyp or luke is right in their stance, melding philosiphies is the best aproch.

 

I think that when you compare Qui-Gon Jinn and Kyp Durron, you will inevitably find similarities in them just as you would if you compared Qui-Gon to Luke Skywalker.

Qui-Gon does not do what he feels is right to him neccessarily, but to the Force. He takes his queue from what he feels the Force wants him to do. Kyp says that he wants to do what is right, but it is only his view of what is right, not what is right according to the will of the Force. It is this very fundamental difference that sets them apart from each other.
Another example of how they differ is in the use of lies. There is nothing in the Jedi Code that says that a Jedi must never lie or use deception, what it says is that a Jedi may lie or use deception if it serves the will of the Force. When Qui-Gon lies to Watto about where he got the Racing Pod that Anakin will use, it is because he feels that it will serve the will of the Force. When Kyp lies to Jaina and uses her to get the Military's help, he does so because it serve's his interests not the will of the Force.

Similar actions but born of very different reasons.

 

Qui-Gonn "I can only protect you, your highness. I can't fight a war for you."

Qui-Gonn here deflects any comparison to Kyp Durron by this simple statement.

 

How can preserving lives not be the will of the force? Kyp didn't lie to Jaina because of his own selfish reasons. He did it so he could deliver a strategic blow to the Vong. It was a military target and the strike against it was made so that the NR forces and people would have a fighting chance.

Whether or not Kyp was right to lie to Jaina is a totally different discussion, but the strike against the Vong ship was a necessary one.

Jae Angel

 

Dude! This is an awesome 'old' thread. Glad someone brought it back to the top, I was thinking on this again recently as I am currently reading Dark Journey. I love and hate my old posts at the same time.

Whee.

 

If Kyp is similar to Qui-Gon because they both defy an established Jedi "order", then you might as well throw in Jacen into the mix.

Like him or not, Jacen's been against traditional Jedi training before the YV even invaded the galaxy, in VP. The DT duology saw him question Luke's insistence on Jedi structure and organization stemming from habit, and inadvertently cloaking the life-like Yuuzhan Vong in a life Force.

Go figure.

 

First Qui-Gon didn't screw up with Anakin, Anakin was ment to turn to the dark side, he had too in order to destory the Sith.

The difference between the two is this. While both disagreed with Jedi who ranked above them, but Qui-Gon knew enough to 1) still respect those above him and 2) know the line a Jedi can't cross. Kyp doesn't seem to think the darkside is real threat, hes like a 14 year old kid who doesn't think he can die so he just keeps doing dumbass stuff. Kyp doesn't think the darkside is "real" or a danger, Qui-Gon did and respected it, Kyp doesn't.

"The Crisis with the Vong isn't about Kyp or Luke or right or wrong. It's about what's the best way to handle the situation." - With a normal person thats fine, but Jedi aren't normal people. If they don't always do whats right they can cross that line, over to the dark side. When someone becomes a Jedi they carry that extra responsibilty of always having to do whats right, reguardless of what they may feel like doing. This is what Kyp doesn't get but Qui-Gon does.

 

"When someone becomes a Jedi they carry that extra responsibilty of always having to do whats right, reguardless of what they may feel like doing. This is what Kyp doesn't get...."

Trying to stop extragalactic invaders from killings millions and destroying Worlds whole sale isn't right?

"Kyp doesn't think the darkside is "real" or a danger, Qui-Gon did and respected it, Kyp doesn't"

Dark Journey. Read it.

This is Kyp's philosophy:

"...At least there would be two Jedi who had the satisfaction of knowing they'd given everything they had, used every resource at their disposal, without stopping to count the cost.

In Kyp's opinion, no true guardian could do any less."

Kyp's own Jedi ideal, in his own words, taken from Dark Journey. I think you'll find that it's matches up very closely with Qui-gon's.

 

"Trying to stop extragalactic invaders from killings millions and destroying Worlds whole sale isn't right?" - For Jedi ends can't justify the means. Kyp is attacking the Vong, usng the force to attack, using aggression and anger. Watch ESB, Yoda address all of these. A Jedi can't do it. Even when Luke takes a stance similiar to Kyps "why can't I....." (I always assumed he wanted to know if he could attack to defend someone). And yoda said there is no why, Jedi just can't, if they do they cross that line. Kyp could kill 1000 YV, but if he attacks them, and uses aggression he would have slipped to the darkside and its not a victory at all. Its not the Jedi's place to attack, ever.

"...At least there would be two Jedi who had the satisfaction of knowing they'd given everything they had, used every resource at their disposal, without stopping to count the cost." - How does this match Qui-Gons ideas on the force? Qui-Gon never said turning to or using the darkside is acceptable in order to win. He could have in his fight with Maul, but he didn't. Qui-Gon also respects ALL Living things (including the Vong). Kyp doesn't. Qui-Gon wouldn't go out on search and destory missions like Kyp did.

 

You make some intersting points Jaeger. But you seem to be ignoring Kyp in DJ. He shows remorse for his past ways and by books end, is set on fostering unity among the Jedi instead of discord.

 

Thats because I hav't read it yet, I'm in university and don't ahve much time for personal reading. Howerver from that passage that was posted he doesn't seem to have changed much.

 

"Qui-Gon also respects ALL Living things "

Can you back that up with any evidence?! There certainly isn't any in TPM. Furthermore, as Wedge 88 pointed out earlier in this thread:

"And then he and Obi-Wan blantly attacked and killed a den full of dark side creatures because the Living Force told him too."

"How does this match Qui-Gons ideas on the force? Qui-Gon never said turning to or using the darkside is acceptable in order to win."

Qui-Gon advocated using any means necessary, including defying the council, if he thought it was for the greater good of the galaxy. He lies multiple times in TPM, and he defies the Jedi Council and then instructs Obi-Wan to do likewise. That sounds like "used every resource at their disposal, without stopping to count the cost" to me.

 

Heh, I really don't think Qui-Gon and Kyp are anything remotely alike.

It really doesn't matter anyhow - I didn't care for Qui-Gon's character and I certainly don't care for Kyp's tactics.

:: Shudders at the idea of Kyp leading ALL the Jedi ::

They would ALL die in no time!

 

"Thats because I hav't read it yet, I'm in university and don't ahve much time for personal reading. Howerver from that passage that was posted he doesn't seem to have changed much."

Okay, Jaeger, these quotes are for you. If you don't want to read any spoilers, do not continue to read.

Dark Journey Spoilers
















"I'm going to work toward the establishment of a Jedi Council, to building consensus instead of discord."-- Kyp, p.299

"There's a line between dedication and fanaticism. I think you passed it a few kilometers back."-- Kyp, p.263

"You will not assume my actions, past or present, justify yours."-- Kyp, p.257

"His apprentice had adopted his argument that the end result was more important than the path that led to it. She had pushed this philosophy to its far edges, forcing Kyp to consider whether there might, after all, be boundaries."--p.243















End Spoilers

A few examples of how Kyp's attitude changed, or in some cases, were revealed, during Dark Journey.

 

Watch the first 10 minutes of hte movie. Obi-Wan (who has a more convental view of the force) doesn't really care about Jar Jar and wants to leave him behind. Qui-Gon, who follows the living force, take the time to save him. ANd they didn't need Jar Jar to lead them (they say 2 minutes later "the force will guide us).

"Qui-Gon advocated using any means necessary" First Qui-Gon won't help Padme get the Gungans help in attacking the TF. He could go in, use the mind trick and get them to help. But what does he say?

"We cannot use our power to help her" - Does that really sound like any means necessary?

Second he says he and Obi-wan can't just go in and take out every droid and person for them. They have to do that. It would have been easy for the Jedi to lift themselves up to the thrown room, put a lightsaber to the Vicroys head and force him to sign. But they don't.

"I can only protect you, I can't fight a war for you"

This is the same stance Luke has taken with the NR. He can help protect people, but the JEdi aren't there to fight a war for them. Kyp doesn't get this point, that the Jedi can't go out and fight a war for the Republic since that would be using aggression and thus using the darkside.


Last, yes Qui-Gon dispobys the council but only when doing so doesn't lead to the darkside. Qui-Gon wouldn't disobye them and go attack a planet or a race like Kyp is doing.


""His apprentice had adopted his argument that the end result was more important than the path that led to it. She had pushed this philosophy to its far edges, forcing Kyp to consider whether there might, after all, be boundaries." - that basically says the while Kyp was acting he didn't think it was wrong, but but now that he sees someone else doing the same thing he sees that it was wrong, and that Luke was right. So he's changing, but he was still wrong, and still nothing like Qui-Gon.