Kyp similar to Qui - Gon

I've been wondering if what the NJO is going to reveal is that Yoda might not have been totally correct about the force. Maybe the old order didn't know all the answers. That's like saying that there's some person here on earth that knows the answer to everything. It's remotely possible but not likely. It's more possible that maybe Yoda only knew part of the truth. My biggest hope for the NJO is that it'll come out with something NEW about the force that contradicts what was previously thought as fact. I mean, the Vong don't abide by the traditional rules because the jedi can't see them in the force. So the jedi have been forced to look at things from different angles. This doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong and the dark side if it's different from what Yoda said. Maybe there are new truths out there to be discovered.

In addition, I'd love to see something revolutionary come out in EU that would make movie canonists pee their pants! I REALLY want to see that! So, I'm hoping, as much as I like Yoda and his character, that we'll see something different with regard to the force by the end of the NJO. It's like the blind men and the elephant. Each one thinks the elephant is like something else, and they're all sort of right. But you can't see the whole elephant for yourself.

Jae Angel

 

Yoda doesn't know everything in the universe, he knows about that force. Thats like saying the founder or an older member of a religion or a martial arts doesn't know as much as we do today. In those cases it normally not true.

"This doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong and the dark side if it's different from what Yoda said. Maybe there are new truths out there to be discovered" - The force and its nature is known to the Jedi. It doesn't matter if the YV are part of the force or can be felt by it or not, if a Jedi uses the darkside against one, that leads the Jedi to the darkside. While normal people have a gray area they can exist in, Jedi don't, as the movies and other books and comics have shown, for Jedi theres only 2 sides - Good and Bad.

 

"Qui-Gon also respects ALL Living things "

"The ability to speak does not make you intellegent"

Oh yeah, oozing respect




I still say Kyp is very much like Qui Gon. Jacen is like nothing we've seen before

 

"I still say Kyp is very much like Qui Gon"

They both go against what senior Jedi master's tell them, thats about it - thats where any similarty ends. Qui-Gon didn't go agaisnt his masters and move toward the Darkside like Kyp is/was doing.

 

Narundi_Jedi, I think that's where things are headed. That all that the Jedi have learned about the force over the millennia (or at least what was passed on to the new jedi) is not all there is to know about the force.

If you go back to Rogue Planet, a competing view was briefly presented. A group of padawans began to follow the idea that there was no dark and light side to the force, only shades of gray, and that whatever the force willed one to do was alright (as there was no dark side). Those padawans were cast out of the order by Mace Windu and the old jedi in question Qui-Gon Jinn. I'd say that would differentiate him from Kyp quite a bit.

 

We've had this arguement before, Jaeger, in another thread, and I think we agreed that what people commonly called "grey" here in this world was just a mixture of little pieces of light and dark.

I never said that the jedi in the NJO discovering something new about the force meant that they'd discover that there was no light and dark and they could do whatever they wanted and avoid the dark side. It would be interesting if such a thing turned out to be true, but that wasn't what I was talking about. Rules in religions DO change over the course of time. However, the main one, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, has remained the same. I don't doubt that the jedi also follow something of that sort of rule.

I don't want for there to be a "grey" side, I just want something little to be discovered in the NJO about the force that makes Yoda wrong in some aspect so movie freaks will stop spewing countless Yoda banter like he was a god. He was just a wise old creature. Not omnipotent.

Jae Angel

 

"Rules in religions DO change over the course of time"

You can't compare the Force and the Jedi to a real life religion. If you break the rules of a real religion you won't fall to the darkside and have it dominate your destiny.

For Jedi its very, very simple. Your good and a Jedi, or your bad and a Sith.

 

For Jedi its very, very simple. Your good and a Jedi, or your bad and a Sith.

Anyone want to say the obvious flaw here?

 

I have to agree with Narundi on a few points here. I think that it is very possible that Yoda and the old order did not know everything about the force. I believe that the old order had its flaws. For example, they could not prevent Vader or the destruction of the Jedi order by the Emperor and Vader. So to say that they had all of the answers would be wrong. I think that the NJO will find something new about the force that the old order did not understand. It seems to be moving in that direction. As far as you statement about being good and a jedi and being bad and a sith, well, if it were that easy then the entire Luke/Kyp debate and schism would not have happened. Luke, while he does not agree with Kyp and his thinking has not, at least to my knowledge, ever referred to him as being evil.

 

I think Kyp is like qui gon, because in his youth he was just as cocky and sure of him self. as he gets older he sees that things need to be done, and that perhaps the leadership of the jedi should be questioned due to its ineffectiveness.

we know the jedi council failed in saving the jedi and protecting the republic possibly due to its lack of change and inaction (though we will see if thats true in AotC). This is the same thing thats happening with this skywalker order.

perhaps the only thing kyp is really correct on is that simply because luke is the senior jedi doesnt mean hes the msot qualified to be the unilateral leader of the jedi alltogether.

 

Kyp is what Qui-Gon would have been if he hadn't had an excellent Master (Which Qui-Gon did). There are shadows of Kyp in Qui-Gon-his rebelliousness, his tendency to do what he feels is right as opposed to what the Code says, his own take on the Force, etc. But there are several traits Qui-Gon had that Kyp doesn't:

1. Qui-Gon doesn't have a past involving Dark-Side use.

2. Qui-Gon, like the other Old Jedi, was extremely patient in pretty much everything; he had difficulty being so at times-I think his use of the mind trick is related to that-why wait when you can just make the person think like you?-but you see it in other parts of TPM-he waits until Maul gives him an opening, then exploits it at the end duel, etc. Kyp is as patient as your average Imperial stormtrooper.

Those two things are what make Qui-Gon, even though possibly less strong in the Force, (which I doubt) a much greater Jedi than Kyp.

 

Remember, Qui Gon is 25-30 years older than Kyp. Little things like waiting for Maul would be from experience more than the person, IMO

 

"You can't compare the Force and the Jedi to a real life religion. If you break the rules of a real religion you won't fall to the darkside and have it dominate your destiny."

Try saying that to a mormon or a really devout roman catholic or a jehovah's witness. They'll laugh in your face and think you're foolish. They believe that if you screw up you will go to hell.

Also, if being a jedi wasn't supposed to be religious in nature then why does it reek of roman catholic and christian doctorine? May the force be with you? How about "May the Lord be with you"? And that entire thing about Jedi having to be celebate sounds just like they're priests. So go right ahead and be concrete about this all you want, but most of us will agree that being a jedi is a religious experience. Those who are a part of it have obligations that must be upheld.

Jae Angel

 

"For example, they could not prevent Vader or the destruction of the Jedi order by the Emperor and Vader" - And the new order can't stop the YV from destroying the galaxy.

The old Jedi order was whipped out by a war, and then by a galaxy turning on them. Even Luke and the rest of the Jedi in NJO know they need to stay ont he Republics good side and not become wanted criminals.

Considering we don't really know what Qui-Gon was like as youth I don't think its fair to say he was like Kyp. I doubt Qui-Gon was foolish enough to belive he above being seduced by the darkside as Kyp seems to think. Plus Qui-Gon has the benifit of growing up with Jeid instruction, Kyp didn't, which is probably why.

As for the religion thing - my uncle is a morman minister. My family isn't morman, and he sees us in a grey area. Were not bad people, we just don't live by the same, strick rules he does.

 

"As for the religion thing - my uncle is a morman minister. My family isn't morman, and he sees us in a grey area. Were not bad people, we just don't live by the same, strick rules he does."

Exactly! Non-jedi in the GFFA aren't necessarily bad people, but they don't have to follow the same strict rules as the jedi do! The jedi aren't allowed to do things that are motivated by anger or else they'll fall to the dark side. Their code plainly states that. I bet your uncle would view another mormon a little differently if he violated the rules of the mormon church than if someone else who was not a part of the church violated that rule.

But I wasn't talking about outsiders, I was talking about your claim that in religion you can "fall to the dark side" by breaking rules and not have it dominate your destiny. Many different religions around the world believe that certain "sins" can't be wiped clean from your record. Kyp Durron would be screwed if he was a catholic or a muslim. It is believed in many religions that there are some things you just can't get away with, like murder. Ask your uncle if killing someone is ok. Ask him what happens to a person who kills someone in the afterlife.

Then there's that question about what counts as "dominating your destiny". I know that many convicted murderers become born-again christians when they get into jail. The question is whether they're just afraid they're going to hell for what they've done so they're trying to repent. Repentence for your sins sounds an awful lot like what bad things you did are influencing your actions. Perhaps the person is doing some good things for society while trying to repent but at the same time the knowledge of what they've done must haunt them. That can't be too pleasant. But the simple fact is that your destiny when you commit a crime like murder lies on a different path than if you didn't kill anyone. Unless you're a sociopath and have no emotions But I'm talking about crimes of passion.

Ooookaayy, I think I've talked long enough for someone who has yet to write a paper and do some thermo hw!

Jae Angel

 

Yep there similar all right, but when Qui-Gon went against the grain, he still had many friends left. Kyps all alone(exept for maybe Jaina, heh heh heh).

Oh and thank you Jarik for the beautiful defense of Kyp on the first page, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Qui-Gon didn't go agaisnt his masters and move toward the Darkside like Kyp is/was doing.

People keep saying this, but I have yet to see an instance where KYP has used the darkside since the JAT. Unless disagreeing with Luke and fighting the Yuuzhan Vong are considered the Darkside.

It could not be mind wiping, many Jedi do/did this, including Luke.

 

"People keep saying this, but I have yet to see an instance where KYP has used the darkside since the JAT. Unless disagreeing with Luke and fighting the Yuuzhan Vong are considered the Darkside."

Kyp hasn't gone all the way over yet, and I don't think I've said he has, and if I did its not what I meant. Kyp is moving towards that line, his getting close, starting down the path, slipping down the hill - whatever phrase you want to use. And hes given the impression he doesn't care. He thinkt he ends justifys the means. He thinks what he's doing is right (same with him going after the smugglers) so it doesn't matter what he does its ok. He doesn't understand that how you accomplish smething is jsut as important , if not more important, to a Jedi.

 

Interesting question. There are some similarities on the way they go their own way. After this... I believe the similarities end.

I believe that jaegar has correctly stated the case. Qui-gon would likely be doing the same thing Luke is. Waiting for the right time to act. Contrary to poular belief... Luke has not been idle. The Jedi are too few in number in his era and the number is dropping. Luke's main concern, or at least what I took from the books in this regard, is trying to work -with- the NR. Much as Qui-gon's "I cannot fight a war -for- you" statement. That is even more true in Luke age where there are fewer Jedi. I believe I read that there roughly 100 Jedi in the NJO. Their job should be to supplement the NR with their Force abilities. I believe this will happen in future books. Luke has been waging the YV war the best way he can. Fighting public opinion and the unfounded beilefs of some members of the NR Senate. Leia could likely do this better, but... she's not under Luke's authority. She's busy with taking care of refugees through most of the series. Luke's battle with the politicians and public opinion is a major part of this war. Whereas before the Jedi were seen as protectors... Certain rash Jedi in the NJO, not only Kyp but he is the most notable, had made this battle all but un-winable until the events of SbS. I can see Qui-gon doing the same thing. Kyp, however has refused to do this. Instead of standing by Luke and helping him keep the Jedi together... he's created a schism.

I also believe that jaegar is right about Kyp's Dark Side tendencies. It is generally agreed that Luke took his first fateful step along the Dark Path in his encounter with Vader in RoTJ. Not because his actions were "wrong", but because of -how- he accomplished those actions. A Jedi acting out of anger or hate is, by definition, using the Dark Side. It seems fairly obvious to me that 99% of Kyp's actions stem from anger at the very least. His use of the mind tricks against ostensible allies only compounds this. If Kyps is not a Darksider... he certainly seems to be very close to it.

As to something contradicting Yoda... Don't look for it to happen. If something in the EU goes against Lucas's movies... It's wrong. Period. This is -Lucas's- universe. Not the authors'. Not yours. Not mine. That should be kept firmly in your head while wishing for contradictions. Only George Lucas himself knows that universe. Anything that contradicts Lucas's vision of what the Star Wars Universe is about contradicts Star Wars itself.

There are some similarites between the two characters, but there are large fundamental difference also. Both ing their belifes and in their actions. While I think Qui-gon might admire Kyp for rebellious... He'd also pity him for his actions.

 

Interesting question. There are some similarities on the way they go their own way. After this... I believe the similarities end.

I believe that jaegar has correctly stated the case. Qui-gon would likely be doing the same thing Luke is. Waiting for the right time to act. Contrary to poular belief... Luke has not been idle. The Jedi are too few in number in his era and the number is dropping. Luke's main concern, or at least what I took from the books in this regard, is trying to work -with- the NR. Much as Qui-gon's "I cannot fight a war -for- you" statement. That is even more true in Luke age where there are fewer Jedi. I believe I read that there roughly 100 Jedi in the NJO. Their job should be to supplement the NR with their Force abilities. I believe this will happen in future books. Luke has been waging the YV war the best way he can. Fighting public opinion and the unfounded beilefs of some members of the NR Senate. Leia could likely do this better, but... she's not under Luke's authority. She's busy with taking care of refugees through most of the series. Luke's battle with the politicians and public opinion is a major part of this war. Whereas before the Jedi were seen as protectors... Certain rash Jedi in the NJO, not only Kyp but he is the most notable, had made this battle all but un-winable until the events of SbS. I can see Qui-gon doing the same thing. Kyp, however has refused to do this. Instead of standing by Luke and helping him keep the Jedi together... he's created a schism.

I also believe that jaegar is right about Kyp's Dark Side tendencies. It is generally agreed that Luke took his first fateful step along the Dark Path in his encounter with Vader in RoTJ. Not because his actions were "wrong", but because of -how- he accomplished those actions. A Jedi acting out of anger or hate is, by definition, using the Dark Side. It seems fairly obvious to me that 99% of Kyp's actions stem from anger at the very least. His use of the mind tricks against ostensible allies only compounds this. If Kyps is not a Darksider... he certainly seems to be very close to it.

As to something contradicting Yoda... Don't look for it to happen. If something in the EU goes against Lucas's movies... It's wrong. Period. This is -Lucas's- universe. Not the authors'. Not yours. Not mine. That should be kept firmly in your head while wishing for contradictions. Only George Lucas himself knows that universe. Anything that contradicts Lucas's vision of what the Star Wars Universe is about contradicts Star Wars itself.

There are some similarites between the two characters, but there are large fundamental difference also. Both in their belifes and in their actions. While I think Qui-gon might admire Kyp for rebellious... He'd also pity him for his actions.

 

Erk... Sorry for posting twice. =(

 

Who do you think runs the EU? Lucas. It is a common misconception that the EU is not "Lucas'", but the fact is that the EU is very much under the control of George Lucas. Nothing gets into the books without the OK of the almighty George Lucas. So, if the EU contradicts the movies it's going to be because George Lucas said that it was about time for it to happen.

Jae Angel

 

His use of the mind tricks against ostensible allies only compounds this.

What? Wiping minds, I don't see how thats a dark side power. Jedi used that stuff in the movies. I never saw it anywhere that mind tricks were of the darkside when Jedi used them.

I also don't see the hatred in his motives for fighting the Yuuzhan Vong. Exept if your counting the heated debates with Luke and Co. I just see a person that has decided to fight an enemy that is destroying the people and places in his galaxy.

I know we are reading the same stuff I'm just not seeing all this "Kyp being a bad guy stuff." Nope I'm not being sarcastic.

 

Tsavhong_Lah

Aye. We are reading the same thing. It's only natural for people to draw different conclusions from the same source. Especially on issues that are not explained in detail. My post detailed what I see from Kyp in the series and how it either makes him simillar to Qui-Gon or does not.

NarundiJedi

Lucas may very well read ever single Star Wars book before it comes out and change what he wishes. I do not know because I'm not around him 24/7. It was my understanding from reading author interviews and book forwards that it is mostly LucasFilm Limited that previews and changes books. This is not the same as having George Lucas doing so. LFL was hired to look after Lucas's interests, I assume because he was too busy with all of his other projects to take a direct hand's-on approach. While this gives them some authority to decide what goes in and what does not... It is not the same.

These are just my opinions and I realize not everyone will agree with them.

 

"Who do you think runs the EU? Lucas. It is a common misconception that the EU is not "Lucas'", but the fact is that the EU is very much under the control of George Lucas. Nothing gets into the books without the OK of the almighty George Lucas. So, if the EU contradicts the movies it's going to be because George Lucas said that it was about time for it to happen" - First GL's doesn't live, breath and eat SW every day of his life. He does when hes making the movies, thats all. When hes not making SW movies hes involved with other projects, hes not waisting time reading SW books. PLus a lot of books are coming out now when he is working on the PT, and hes said many times that all he cares about right now is getting these movies done. EU's GL, if it was that would mean he agreed with everything in EU and would have no reason to change it, but he has. Take what the movies say over what EU says, the movies are GL's contributions to the SW universe.

As for the mind trick thing. Look at like this. If you shoot someone who about to kill someone else are you a murderer? No, you acted in defence of the third person. If you shoot someone becuse you don't like them its a murder. The two acts are the same, but the motivation is different, which makes one ok, and one wrong. The same is true about the mind trick. If a Jedi does it with good intentions like Qui-Gon did in TPM is ok. If they do it with evil/bad intentions its not. There aren't two sets of force powers - with only Jedi being about to use one set and Sith being able to use the other one.

 

As for the mind trick thing. Look at like this. If you shoot someone who about to kill someone else are you a murderer? No, you acted in defence of the third person. If you shoot someone becuse you don't like them its a murder. The two acts are the same, but the motivation is different, which makes one ok, and one wrong. The same is true about the mind trick. If a Jedi does it with good intentions like Qui-Gon did in TPM is ok. If they do it with evil/bad intentions its not. There aren't two sets of force powers - with only Jedi being about to use one set and Sith being able to use the other one.

I understand that intent plays a part in the use of the Force. I don't see how being a Darkside use when Kyp did it.

And I see what Howlrunner means about getting different views from the material. I thought Qui-Gons acions in TPM were quite shady, how he tried to con Watto. Not Darkside use, but still a con. Thats when I really started liking Qui-Gon, now that I think about it.