Kyp's Defenders and the Great Jedi schism

thats a good point about kyp, but 'thinking things throu gh' was not what luke was doing during his long periods of 'inactivity'.

he was spending his time contemplating whether the vong should even be fought or not, and what was the nature of the dark side, and worrying about HIS OWN troubles with mara and his child, and most of all, criticising anyone who wanted action. kyp may have rushed in head strong for bad, but understandable reasons, but at least kyp was doing something.

yes in star by star luke finally decided to get off his carcass and do something, but LOOK AT ALL THE LIVES AND LOST BATTLES IT TOOK! hes lost nearly half of the very jedi which he himself created. there comes a time when an old soldier must sand aside and let the younger soldiers do the fighting, less they become a hinderance, and thats what luke has become.

he waited far too long to do something, and though many of kyps followers have died in 'petty' but successful battles, JUST AS MANY of lukes have died while he sat by and did nothing. thats not leading, and if you ask me, he should step aside even now.

 

If three of his greatest supporters were starting to question him, he must be doing something wrong.

"It means that you LEAD them in finding the answers."

Well, then lead them to find the answer. Assign them to espionage and exploration missions. Let them do research. Make it a unified effort. There's none of that. He's got Jedi running around all of over the place, because there is no plan.

Part of gaining knowledge is espionage. Yet when Kyp does it in Rebirth, he is scoffed at and called stupid and aggressive.

You generalize Kyp's actions to much. Sure, some of his actions are reactive, as you say. But was holding off the refugee ships at Kubindi in Balance Point reactive? Was supplying a resistance movement on New Plympto prior to SBS a knee jerk reaction? Still, sometimes a knee jerk reaction is necessary. That's what Kyp's attempted rescue of Wurth was. Was that a bad thing? Kyp does one or two hasty things, and soon everything he does is reckless. Sometimes I think people confuse recklessness with risk.

 

Kimball_Kinnison,
I apologize for not having answered.
However, I would like to contest the idea that it is the Jedi way to act, and not to react.

Yoda said that for a jedi the force should provide only defense, not attack. Reaction implies a provocation, whereas Action doesn't require provocation. Therefore, I think that reaction, a stimulated response, is more likely a description of Yoda's jedi philosophy than action, a simple progressive move requiring no reason or provocation.

Certain moves come instinctively- ducking when someone throws something at you, or igniting and raising a lightsaber to protect against a sudden, nearly unforeseen strike. Kyp has been that instinctive duck & parry for the galaxy. While all these politicians and pacifist jedi have been collecting their evidence and intel, and "preparing to strike back", Kyp has already begun to. Of course, by SbS his reaction is no longer needed, Luke is ready to go to war. Real war. Not last-ditch defense.

Now that Luke has decided to strike back, Kyp HAS JOINED HIM. He even swore an oath, although the authors will probably mischaracterize him again and make him break that oath...

Kyp was every bit as necessary to the war effort as those who didn't react right away, his "job" just wasn't as clean and bloodless. His initial "job" is over now, and he has rejoined those who have finally expressed an interest in some sort of offensive campaign.

Funny though, how Luke's guidance has created "action". The Talfaglio (sp?) strike, ordered to free refugees, did end in an initial apparent success. I still don't see how this is ACTIVE though. All Luke did was REACT to a vong message that the refugees were to die unless the jedi surrendered themselves. He found out and organized a strike mission as a REACTION to the vong claims.

[I was personally surprised to see that the vong were stupid enough to actually put the fleet of refugee ships there. Why not just lie in wait for the strike force that was sure to come, with only a fleet of warships?

Oh, wait. That's right. Luke will never be shown to have flawed judgement, even if we have to make the Vong suddenly stupid in order to make him look better.]

Sorry about the sidebar, my main point is that Luke hasn't come up with any truly 'pro-active' strikes against the Vong yet. Correct me if my memory has failed me...

 

Once again, well said Risste. You make a lot of good points.

 

"Kyp has been that instinctive duck & parry for the galaxy. While all these politicians and pacifist jedi have been collecting their evidence and intel, and "preparing to strike back", Kyp has already begun to. Of course, by SbS his reaction is no longer needed, Luke is ready to go to war. Real war. Not last-ditch defense."

And to add emphasis to this point, if the decision had been made at the beginning of the Vong invasion and Kyp had been given resources that might actually make a difference (instead of a squadron of snubfighters) the course of the war might have been very different.

True, many Jedi would have died, many planets would have fallen and countless galactic citizens would have suffered.

Too bloody bad. To make an ommelette you must break eggs. And it looks that with Luke's way quite a lot of eggs have been broken anyway.

I love the passionate debating thats been generating here. I'm sitting on the sidelines as I haven't read the more recent books (no $$ to buy 'em

Kimball_Kinnison: I now agree that my view might have been a bit extreme. Thats merely because I dislike Luke and the Republic intensely

My point about a schism in the Jedi Order still has merit I think After the Vong are thrown back at least and the Oath no longer holds.

 

Risste, I have to diagree with you about action and reaction.

Reaction is almost completely based on emotions. It shows that someone else is in control of your actions, because if they provoke you it forces you to react. There is no thought involved. At least to me, that seems more like the way of the Dark Side. Everyone does this some, but to not control yourself and your emotions leads to the Dark Side.

Action, on the other hand, CAN be brought about by a provocation, but it implies that there has been thought and choice in the matter. You have chosen your action in response to the provocation.

If, for example, you were to punch me (WHAP! --remember, this is hypothetical), a reaction would be to immediately punch, kick or otherwise hurt you. However, if I were to stop and think for just a moment (it does not have to be long, only thorough) I could see a better way to resolve the situation (pull out my blaster and vape you ).

The reason why pilots practice so much is so that they will react in battle. If you have an enemy about to shoot you down, you need to do some things automatically so you can focus on more important items. However, that is not being ruled by your emotions, but by your training. A Jedi cannot allow his emotions to rule his actions (or reactions). If he does, he is left open to the Dark Side.

As I said before, I guess this is an area where we should agree to disagree. I'd love to continue this conversation later, but I have many exams to prepare for now (that time of year again!).

Kimball Kinnison

 

Agreed, exams come first, time for one in calc right now!
Ok, I can see your POV.
And I have been found willing to agree to disagree--from time-to-time.
I would like to point out, though:
A jedi is not supposed to be a warrior without emotion.
Jedi are not to let their fear and their anger to drive them, yet even Ben told Luke to "trust his feelings."
I personally don't think fear or anger are what drive Kyp. Kyp is the kind of guy who, if I were to punch him, he would break my arm. That may not be the most bloodless or least painful of solutions, but I wouldn't be punching him with that arm any time soon. But he wouldn't do it out of revenge. He would do it to prevent future attacks.

-Vaping someone for punching you? Beware your anger...hehe I understand, it was a metaphor.

Anyway, time for an exam...

 

Risste, (OK, I know I said I have exams to get ready for, but it's only for my mechanics class. I've been doing that stuff for years!)

I never said that an action lacks emotion, only that they are controlled. A Jedi should not be emotionless, neither should they be ruled by their emotions. Trusting your feelings and choosing to act upon them are very different from being ruled by them.

Also, vaping someone for punching you is only excessive if the other person is fairly harmless. If they are extremely dangerous...

Good luck in Calculus. I've been there. (I'm through Differential Equations and into Discrete Math. I'm almost done with all my math classes!!!)

Kimball Kinnison

 

good luck Risste


Go back and read the Dark Tide duology. Luke took a more "active" role then, and Kyp still disagreed with him.

he was nodding in agreement when Luke said his idea

When faced with an unknown enemy, your first objective should be to gather intelligence. That is what Luke did. Kyp saw his actions as weakness.

Kyp was getting info too. And in Rebirth, Kyp does say it is GOOD Luke is doing this. Not got it with me, but it is when Jaina tells him about Luke wanting to see him.


In Agents of Chaos again, Luke took some direct action, by sending Jedi on specific tasks (such as Centerpoint). Again, Kyp disagreed with him.

You sure? Last I checked, Kyp did one of the planned tasks. Jacen was disagreeing, and Kyp slapped him jokingly on the back.


In Balance Point, Luke was again on the front lines, taking direct action at Duros.

Not by choice


In Edge of Victory, he was forced to walk a fine line between alienating the Jedi completely from the New Republic and being able to take a more active part. He showed a little indecision, yes, but then, he has a lot more things to worry about than Kyp does!!! Kyp sees the conflict in much simpler terms (Enemy...Fight!). When you have large decisions to make, especially ones that you HAVE to make right, you tend to be at least a little indecisive. That is human nature.

You cant prove this, as all we know is what we SEE, not what Kyp KNOWS


Again, in Star By Star, Luke is taking direct action.

Yes, and Kyp went from "When you are ready to fight, we'll be there" to being there.


That is the greatest difference between Luke and Kyp: Luke take the time to ACT, while Kyp only REACTS to situations.

Again, hard to prove. Kyp had time to go to three NR people before attacking in Rebirth. And remember, while Luke was thinking, planets were falling. Kyp was helping people evacuate, Luke was planning?

 

*Sweeps aside the attack thrusts of calc prof, stabs the frantic man in the heart, force-throws him out of a second-story window, and bows to rapturous applause.*

That test got its @$$ kicked.

My one point, that Luke has still not truly "acted," has not been addressed. I can't think of an instance when Luke has organized his jedi to do anything BUT react to the vong. Feel free to enlighten...

By the way, K_K, I like the signature.

 

Congrats on the exam. (Calc isn't that hard. It's the 3rd order differential equations with constant coefficients that start to get challenging.)

His attempts to organize the Jedi in DT and AoC speak for his action. As you may recall from Ruin, after he gathered the Jedi together, he carefully helped plan how they should act in response to the upcoming attack on Ithor. It was a response instead of a reaction.

The fact that they considered the possible outcomes and carefully decided on a course of action speaks towards action, over reaction.

Corran, on the other hand, was reacting to Elegos' death when he challenged Shedao Shai to the duel. He himself said that he wasn't sure why he was doing it, realizing only after the duel that it was out of a thirst for vengence.

Sorry to make this so short, but I still have my mechanics exam to study for. I'll continue this later, if you wish.

Kimball Kinnison

P.S. My sig is a quote from my Aunt Judy.

 

doesn anyone else think luke himself should of taken his own medicine and stepped back to look at himself? while he ws judging corran and kyp, he himself was out looking after his own affairs with mara, and her illness/pregnancy. thats why he couldnt rationalize anything, he was worried sick.

not that that is a bad thing, its understandable, but being a 'master' jedi, he should of had the sense to swallow his pride and step back and let his students handle the situation. that way he could of saw whether the students really agreed with him, or were they just 'following there master skywalkers orders'.

things would of gone a lot smoothly if he did, but he was selfish, and its costed a big bulk of jedi lives.

 

woops , it came out twice.

 

I'm by no means a great fan of Kyp, but over time I've grown to respect him as an integral and funadamentally needed character for the development of the Jedi and the NJO saga.

that being said...Kyp is a hot-headed saber-flasher. Was it necessary or is more of it necessary...I no longer have a clue. But he seems to be as much reacting to the Vong as Luke is only just to the opposite extreme.

If I had been with Kyp I'd try to caution him to act with more reserve and to consider the consequences especially whenever he decided to deceive the people he wanted to ally with. He acheived his short term goal: destroying the worldship, but sabotaged his longterm goal: rallying the good guys' forces that be to act.

But it hardly matters as of SxS the rest of the Jedi and the New Republic are finally acting, and I commend Kyp for taking a supportive role to Luke's actions.

 

I agree about agreeing to disagree.

Calculus.
Errgh. Maths.
Haven't troubled myself about that since way back in '97.

I'm an English major myself.
Or will be, next year when I start university

 

Wow alot has happened since my last post.

"Some people are born leaders and others are born followers."

So which is Kyp? I think he's more of a maveric. Followers follow and work with the leader. Leaders take responsiblity and are careful of conciquences.

"You will note that I have not questioned Kyp's personal integrity. So far, he has been doing what he truly believes is right (even though I disagree with him). However, as you reread both Rebirth and SbS, you can see Kyp's attitude about those in authority is limited to "Order me to do what I want to". He tells Jaina as much in Rebirth and gets irritated at Luke in SbS when he orders him to do things he does not want to do. He then only obeys Luke because of his oath to him.

He does not respect authority, at least not to the point where he is willing to obey someone because they are in authority. This is mostly because he seems to consider himself a higher authority."

Well said. I think Kyp does consider himself a higher authority. I'm not saying everyone should fit Luke's ideals, I'd just like to repeat a quote I once heard 'he who hates correction is stupid'. Kyp constantly refuses correction. I believe he is a great man its just that he can't always push the blame elsewere.


"That is not a set of circumstances that breeds patience, especially when NR generals are forced to disobey their orders in order to fight the enemy!

Kyp lives in a universe dictated by the hourglass (whereas many people, Luke, up till now, and Jacen, forever, see themselves in a galaxy ruled by the scales.) The question of good/evil is a great and perplexing one. The question of survival/annihilation is more basic and important! Can no-one see that Coruscant is lost? Leadership is needed, not patience! Leia actually tried to provide some leadership once Coruscant was as good as gone, I thought that was very quaint.

The Vong are not a people you can rise up in a rebelion against. They turn everyone they capture into living ROBOTS for gosh sakes! For those people looking to see another version of the original rebellion against the empire, that would be rediculous. Why? Because the vong don't want to RULE the galaxy like Palpy, they want to BE the galaxy! They have no wish to retain any of the peoples they crush, that would be counter-productive. No, they'll just slaughter everyone and take their place.

Ben Kenobi said there were always multiple points of view. Kyp has one, and it may yet turn out to be right. We've seen main characters die, we can see Luke and Mara and Jacen be wrong.

Yoda preached patience, building strength over time. Well, he had a bit of a bias! He was 900 yrs old! And it wasn't like Palpy was gonna find him anyway. Yoda never faced an enemy determined to accomplish the destruction of the entire population of the galaxy. Maybe the entire jedi population, but then patience and quiet reserve served a purpose. (i.e. "hiding")

...Now attempts to regroup and trade space for time will serve only the purpose of the Vong,IMHO.

I am not saying Kyp has been right all along, only that his POV grows stronger."

I agree the Vong are not beings that you rebel against 'cause if your not around how are you going to rebel? Yoda's advise can still be aplied, patience doesn't nessacarily mean waiting til its almost too late (Luke) but it also doesn't mean that you just make a quick overview of the situation either (Kyp).

"Even Mara, in all her bias, admits this. In Conquest she says,

'I agree we can't sit and wait. I know you don't want to do that either, but you aren't expressing it well enough. Kyp has given the Jedi a vision, as clear and simple as it is wrong. All we've done is give a muddy jumble of assurances and prohibitions. We need to tell them what to do, not what not to do.'

I suppose what us Kyp followers really want isn't the aggression that Kyp offers, but the leadership. We don't like Kyp lying to Wedge, etc., but we're willing to overlook it because the leadership he offers outweighs his bad qualities. If Luke were to o