Lit L-Canon -- or, Taking Matters Into Our Own Hands (Final Results Announced)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Mar 6, 2013.

  1. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    This thread is not for complaining about TCW.

    This thread is not for complaining about TCW.

    This thread is for workshopping solutions to the ever-growing list of continuity issues in TCW, with the aim of building at least a tentative consensus about how best for canon to move forward. Think of it as a combination of National Retcon Week and One Sentence or Less--members will propose solutions to a rotating list of discrepancies (hopefully chronologically, but we'll see how it goes), and everyone will vote via Likes on which ones they like the best. Unlike OSOL, this isn't a contest--each "round" will continue until a consensus is reached--or given up on--similar to how Consensus Tracks operate on the Wook.

    As some ideas may arise out of the discussion itself, I'll be looking at the overall reaction to any given retcon rather than absolute vote totals for any given post. The goal is for us all to get on the same page with this stuff, so when there isn't a clear favorite I'll either keep the discussion open for a while or table it if a substantial amount of time has gone by.

    Whatever retcons seem to have a strong consensus will be awarded the totally-meaningless distinction of L-Canon, as in "Lit Canon", as in "we think this should be what happens". This, obviously, is meant purely for fun; the odds of any extensive official TCW retconning happening anytime soon are probably very small--and hell, who even knows what canon will look like a year from now. Let's put our brains to the test.

    First up for discussion will be the list of discrepancies itself; I don't trust myself to remember every single one. Note that the New Mandalorians, for example, have already been more or less retconned, while the nature of Mandalore's ecosystem (I believe?) isn't definitively resolved and could be subject to debate. Once we have a fairly comprehensive list, we'll pick whatever comes up first in the chronology and go from there.

    Update: Final Results

    • Ryloth's rotation - Irregular orbit and/or axis.
    • Even Piell's death - Possessed impostor a la SotME.
    • Dengar/Han swoop race - Dengar is middle-aged, races swoops on the side.
    • Greedo: total timeline anarchy - TPM/TCW Greedo is Greedo the Elder
    • Asajj Ventress, bounty hunter - Obsession depicts her transition to bounty hunter
    • Adi Gallia's death - Grievous didn't quite kill her, Savage finished the job
    • Barriss Offee, traitor - Revan-ed and reinstated

    Also note that the overall timeline problem is a bigger fish than this thread can really fry; let's leave the chronological order and dating of stories alone for the time being. And last but not least, "continuity error" and "silly thing" are not synonymous--you can dislike Robomaul all you want, but it's not an error.
    Last edited by Point Given, May 13, 2013
  2. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Cad Bane--Duros or not?

    But, no, really I think this is a great idea. [face_peace]
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Mar 6, 2013
  3. sidv88 Force Ghost

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    Adi Gallia’s death/ Ventress’ fate (Star Wars: Obsession retcon)—I say cram the entire first 7 volumes of Dark Horse’ Clone Wars TPB’s (vol. 7 includes Obsession) into 22 BBY, with Obsession taking place before the show. My reasoning—

    Adi Gallia is not outright pronounced as dead by Grievous in the comic, although it’s strongly implied by Windu’s reaction. She was just wounded, pulled a K’Kruhk, and survived to appear in TCW cartoon.

    Ventress’ “redemption” was actually a ploy staged between her and Dooku so she could get close enough to kill Kenobi. Dooku pretends to turn on her, has his guards shoot her down with blanks, which leads Kenobi to “rescue” her (which she repays by trying to stab Kenobi with a piece of metal in the comic). This plot fails due to Anakin’s intervention, she fakes her death to get on the medical shuttle, takes out Alpha, and heads back to Dooku’s side to appear in TCW cartoon.

    Barriss was suffering from a combination of residual Geonosian worm DNA combined with the bota in her system from the MedStar books. Med droids remove the bota and worm DNA, she pleads insanity, and Palpatine “generously” pardons her, allowing her back in the field for the ‘Reversal of Fortune’ webcomic.
  4. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Great thread idea, Coop. If used properly, it can be a fun "brain trust" of Litizens sorting out discrepancies and creating retcons. :)[face_peace]

    You list the major points of contention from TCW. There are minor ones, like Dac having a king and two suns instead of one, but those are very easy to pave over, IMO.

    I will watch this thread with great interest!

    --Adm. Nick
  5. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    @sidv88 - let's just worry about the list for the moment; if people are bringing up multiple topics at once it'll be a lot harder to figure out which ideas we like the most.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Mar 6, 2013
  6. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Good point. Maybe you should declare an official first topic to help keep things moving in the same direction? I am game to any of them.


    --Adm. Nick
  7. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    As soon as I'm sure I didn't miss anything--I'll give it the rest of the day or so.
  8. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    I feel that what's often cited as TCW's biggest problem, and what changes around the whole timeline, can be handled very easily: Anakin's Knighting. I've said this so many times that I'm going to sound like a busted record (good thing we don't have anyone around here that does that, eh? :p), but the simplest thing to do is just to say that Anakin's Knighting took place approximately a year after the war, not just a few months. This allows time for many of the Republic stories starring Anakin to take place, such as Jabiim. The experience he gains from these missions are what persuade the Council to Knight him. From there, perhaps a few of the Clone Wars Adventure comics take place, and then enter Ahsoka.

    Obviously, how TCW chooses to end could be a problem. As it is now, though, it's a perfect segue to Anakin's activities in Ghost Prison (he's angry at the Jedi, angry over the loss of his padawan, so he chooses to take out his aggression on wanted fugitives), Brothers in Arms, and Labyrinth of Evil.

    To cover some on the list...

    Ryloth rotation?- Honestly, I find it much easier to not even think of Ryloth.

    Mandalore desert or forest?- Both. Planets are big, big places, it could easily have both.

    Evan Piell and Adi Gallia- I'm fine with just inserting new Jedi into their old places. In both respective works that they died, neither was important to the plot themselves, it was just the fact that a Jedi master was killed.

    Barriss Offee, traitor- So far, the only thing this contradicts is a webcomic and a panel in the ROTS comic, correct? That's certainly less disastrous than it could be. Of course, redemption is always available. Jedi are gullible like that.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Mar 6, 2013
  9. phatdude1138 Force Ghost

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    I hope I'm doing this right, if not let me know:
    • Ryloth's rotation (No Opinion)
    • Mandalore--forest or desert or both? (Both, planets are large and can have multiple ecosystems, don't forget mini-Coruscant)
    • Even Piell's death (No Opinion)
    • Asajj Ventress, bounty hunter (She is a BH now, but unknown if forever)
    • Adi Gallia's death (No Opinion)
    • Barriss Offee, traitor (Traitor, but needs further explanation, possible redemption, Medstar happens before, Medstar is catalyst for her turning.)
    Last edited by phatdude1138, Mar 6, 2013
  10. MistrX Force Ghost

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    Asajj Ventress, bounty hunter. Hmmm. I would put the show between her electrocution on Coruscant (which it already was, so unnecessary to mention that), but before Obsession. I'm thinking maybe Asajj is independent for a while, but at some point Dooku discovers her and his forces incapacitate her, hence her state when Obi-Wan discovers her on Boz Pity. Whatever Dooku's done to her has been horrible that she's just POed when she wakes, but by the time she wakes again on the shuttle later, she's closer to her mindset before her recapture, hence her decision to leave everything behind.

    As for her knowledge of the attack on Coruscant. Either a) Dooku and co. may have tormented her with information like that or b) Dooku was planning on turning her into some weapon/assassin, perhaps in line with whatever Sidious' plans for Maul are.

    Barriss. Maybe she gets some rehabilitation in prison, enough that the Jedi secure her release, perhaps as a probationary status. That could account for her presence on Felucia, she was willing to serve again, perhaps as a stated objective that her past techniques were clearly wrong and that she wants to try to change the Jedi openly and from the inside. Aayla or some other Jedi present was ultimately responsible for whatever actions she took, but by that point she'd gained enough trust to operate somewhat independently.

    Mandalore. Still has multiple ecosystems, maybe? Not sure why they would be living in the domes if a possibly more habitable area is available. Or maybe they're living in the domes while the still living ecosystems are developed.

    If we're talking about the New Mandalorian vs. Kyrimorut societies, I'd have to go with separate planets where the inhabitants both considers theirs to be "Mandalore".

    Adi Gallia. Like I noted in the Continuity thread, I like the Jello/Cooper idea that "Adi Gallia" is a title and that Stass Allie chose to go by her own name in respect for her two recently slain predecessors.
    Last edited by MistrX, Mar 6, 2013
  11. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    :oops:

    Okay, you guys aren't getting it. We're going to talk about them one at a time, and not move on until we're generally in agreement. I guess I'll just take Nick's advice and officially declare the first topic:

    Ryloth's Rotation. That is the topic right now.

    Personally, because there's only one shot in the show that blatantly contradicts a fixed orbit, I think the cleanest retcon is a solar eclipse. That said, it's my understanding that it is in fact a normally-rotating planet according to "G-canon", at least as of TCW, so I think we have to go with superweapon--it's been in fixed orbit for all recorded history, Seppies do...something...to knock it out of whack for a while, it's eventually fixed. Any more specific ideas?

    My feeling is that it's a different type of problem because saying a story takes place officially at two different times is technically unsolvable--the only way to retcon it is to outright ignore one given date or the other in the face of a new interpretation, and then we're just debating months semi-arbitrarily. I'm not opposed to covering it, but let's at least save it for last, I say.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Mar 6, 2013
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  12. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    I always wondered how the Mon Calamari managed to set a gas planet on fire till it burned out so that they for a short time had a second sun :p guess that was an accident due to an army of Gungans passing by the system in TCW, eh?


    PS: Mandalore is no issue, resolved in Atlas by Jason Fry already! As for the others... do I really have to repost my entire repertoire of retcons from other topics again? really? Solved nearly anything already and can rest easy and at peace with my mind now. And you make me search for why that is the case @CooperTFN ? D'oh...
  13. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    I do not want rotation to be the fault of Seppiemeddling.. cause honestly there is something easier to explain it ;)

    Ryloth got 5 moons... they arrange themselves in a way so it has day/night cycles by blacking out the sun for few hours each day.. its axis itself is fixed and it got a iceside and hot side.. with only minor wobbling in the shadow regions in between both where most takes place.
  14. GrandAdmiralJello Emperor: Community & Lit

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    I've edited the thread title to make the topic clearer.
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  15. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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  16. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    There's also the Greedo timeline kerfuffle, and Obi-Wan and Anakin encountering MagnaGuards before ROTS. There also might be a conflict with the YA Boba Fett series since I think TCW has Jango's helmet being destroyed early in the war, but in one of the Boba Fett books Boba returns to Geonosis to retrieve his father's full set of armor. I don't remember which book that is, though, so if it's one of the ones set at the beginning of the war there's probably no contradiction.

    Edit: Whoops, started writing this before an official topic was declared but I got distracted.
    Last edited by _Catherine_, Mar 6, 2013
  17. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    and for your list of trouble... Barriss age in TCW being closer to Ahsoka while in AOTC being same as Anakins ;)
  18. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    Greedo.. oh yeah.. he never shot first :p

    as for Magnaguards... easy, the ROTS Magna Guards are just upgraded new types.. same look. thus.. they meant the new ones in ROTS. not them in general.

    Helmet is no issue since it is canon that Fett got several of them, like Jango had multiple sets of armor and helmets. just one is gone.. he got plenty left to try new colors on.. one for each Powerranger.. ahem, Mandalorian color I meant. :p
  19. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    See? The second I declare a topic people start adding to the list. :p

    I'll just let it ride for now and once we're done with Ryloth I'll re-post an updated list.
  20. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    I mostly just ignored the Ryloth thing. Lucas said something? Shrug. Lucas changes his mind a lot, so when it doubt, it's usually better just to believe the opposite of something he rules anyway. :p

    I really like the solar or lunar eclipse idea though. That's really simple. Originally, I was subscribing more to there being Ryloth I and Ryloth II or something, but if a solar eclipse can do it, even easier.
  21. TheRedBlade Force Ghost

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    If we can't get around the dreaded One Shot of Ryloth, maybe the Empire induced some kind of catastrophe. Orn Free Taa is one of the major players in the Republic Senate during the PT, but Ryloth seems to be a bit player by the time of the OT. Could the Empire have, say, have thrown an asteroid at the world big enough to both change its orbit and devastate it's ecosystem?
  22. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    In a vacuum, I could give a crap what Lucas says, but we have to be realistic--if rotation is the official word now, the most brilliant Jason Fry concoction in the world won't change that. We have to operate under the assumption that the way things are depicted in TCW is how they'll be from now on. Let's just pray no one else brings up Ryloth in a post-OT story. :p

    Ceiran: regarding Barriss' age, nothing in TCW gives her actual age, so there's no need to mess with canon just because the narrative vaguely suggests them as contemporaries. If anything, that's an argument against birth dates in the next Character Guide--if Geonosis Anakin is 20, and Ahsoka's 14, I'm happy to call Barriss 17 and leave it at that.

    Well, sure, but it's fixed in both KOTOR and the NR era--so it's got to go from fixed to rotating and back again.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Mar 6, 2013
  23. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    If someone else brings Ryloth up in a Post-OT story, then I'm just going to conclude it has a secret Rakatan world engine and that they ran out of gas during the OT period. :p
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  24. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

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    Maybe the Separatists eventually got this random superweapon to work, but it sucked so all it did was make the planet start rotating.

    [IMG]

    Look at it, how could it not suck?
  25. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Actually, that's not bad. Planet-based super gravity well generator, maybe? Accidentally pointed down instead of up?
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