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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit L-Canon -- or, Taking Matters Into Our Own Hands (Final Results Announced)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Mar 6, 2013.

  1. Darth_Culator

    Darth_Culator Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2005
     
  2. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004

    there is no problem with 2 grandfathers... heck his grandma killed one man and married again a young loverboy... it happens :p
     
  3. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004
    HORN
    Horn Family: Since Hal is 4 in Jedi Trial and as per TCW Jedi Trial is no longer at the end of the war but at the beginning now somewhere in the first 6 months or year we may win 2 more years for his age.. whereas originally he was around 6-8 when Corran was born.. he now can be 8-10 :p make the 4 years longer due to him born in a leapyear if such exists in corellian years maybe? then he could be however old we need him to be.. like 16-18 when fathering a child if leapyear is every 4 years like on Earth? Or attribute Hal Horns birth not to Corellia proper but a moon or else where there are odd shorter years whatever.. but leapyears fit best I propose ;) so he actually is older if the narrative of Jedi Trial does not have him to be a small kid literally but more from his dads perspective.

    DEATH STAR:
    Concept Art saves the day I guess... the two Coruscant habitation spheres from McQuarrie still work best as exlanation I guess. Worldcrafts are nice but should be very rare and are very different in design from actual Death Stars (see Crystal Star!) they are more planetoid + added tech and artificial atmosphere etc. rather than a technological core.
    So my proposed retcon is merely: Habitation Sphere got moved away from Coruscant and refitted in major overhaul with most what we see of the Death Star being not Death Star material yet but a sphere with a dish already added and the interior completely not yet changed. Explains the quick work and leaves lots of options open like them adding Worldcraft parts maybe or if you do not like the refitting, use a Hollow Death Star that is faster build with holographic projectors to show workers where parts go.. so it looked more complete than it was actually.

    GRIEVOUS: as others already said.. both stories are easily mergable, old historry stays canon, new one just adds his motivations for further modifications and justifications for himself.

    CONFED Battleships: They come in all sizes, shapes and interiors... like Corellian ships and else. We had it before with the EU too or the many interiors of the Falcon and Slave 1. Alone the detatchable Core Ship in AOTC is something that screwed with the TPM crosssections. So no problem, just different types of the same ship. Except where it is supposed to be the same NAMED ship.. there we can talk (*looks at the Tantive IV*)


    As for my beloved CELESTIALS: Yep you got me right... my previous retcon idea stands in the room, discuss ;)


    he was 4 years old in jedi trial...see above ;)
     
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    And apparently habitation spheres have been around for a long time- The Old Republic: Annihilation mentions Coruscant having them.

    So I could see Death Stars being easier to build than it might seem- with them being basically upsized habitation spheres with engines and weapons added.

    It must be said that the Death Star novel says that the DS1 was (at the time) the largest space station ever built (I'm guessing this has the proviso "by the Republic or Empire" since Centerpoint was larger).
     
  5. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004
    well largest as in what exactly? Volume? diameter? there is wiggleroom always ;) ps: the proviso would be less by the Republic/Empire and more to the effect of by Humans :p or they like always refer to just "since the Ruusan Reformations" like with all else.
     
  6. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    You know, the Earth already has an aberrantly big moon for a terrestrial planet its size. If indeed the DS2 is 900 km in diameter, then I wouldn't believe it could possibly have been a habitation sphere. This is a comparison between Ceres (which has a diameter of about 950 km) and the Earth-Moon system:

    [​IMG]

    I would be very uncomfortable with two (or more) space stations that size above my head. It's just not safe to build or keep something so gargantuan over the most densely populated planet in the galaxy. Now, if the DS2 is 160 km in diameter, yes, it could have been a habitation sphere.

    PS: As regards my previous comments about the Falcon outrunning the erupting hypermatter, I seem to have forgotten the fact that the reactor core explosion is not the same one that almost swallows the Falcon. The core explosion appears to be contained to the reactor core chamber (it makes sense that they'd have a force field there), and a cavalcade of smaller eruptions starts tearing the space station apart from the inside. It is such smaller-scale explosions that Lando and Luke barely escape. By the time the big one comes around, the Falcon has had time to reach a safe distance (in its explosion shot, the DS2 looks about as big as the Earth in the above picture).
     
  7. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004
    Habitation spheres were in orbit in concept art but not neccessarily need to be there, could be further out so they are no trouble to the planet. they could be old refitted Worldships/Generationships even. Look at Kuat and its KDY ring... extrapolate the size of that if you can and we can talk what fits in orbit or not ;) Talus and Tralus Centerpoint also is bigger and much closer to both worlds than any habitation sphere to Coruscant!
     
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Those habitation spheres look awfully close:

    [​IMG]

    what pictures make Centerpoint look closer to both Talus and Tralus than those are to Coruscant?
     
  9. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    You're right. I had forgotten about the Kuat Shipyards. And screw Kuat, if the size of the Mon Calamari Shipyards is to be taken seriously and not as artistic license, then it appears that people in Star Wars are prepared to have construction work of truly unimaginable proportions take place over their heads. I just don't think they would have anything too monstrous over Coruscant specifically. Coruscant at the time of the films has been de-industrialized and serves exclusively as a political center. If they wanted to build stuff, they'd move it at least out of its gravity well, I think.

    But I checked the Complete Locations book, and it features a schematic of how construction on the DS2 progressed. It appears they built the "stalk" and the "branches" seen in yellow on Ackbar's tactical hologram first, and then expanded from there.

    So, I guess for the "DS2 was something else first" retcon to work, we'd have to modify it thus: they built the most basic superstructure first, and then added the hull from a different construction project around it. I like the idea that the space station used was intended as a vacation home for Lemelisk because of its poetic justice, but it could have been anything, or even many things at once. Perhaps they took apart habitation spheres, worldcrafts, whatever big enough was handy and rearranged it around the "stalk".
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Last time this subject was brought up- it was said that Randy Stradley confirmed that it was indeed artistic licence:

     
  11. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 10, 2004
    true those spheres look very small.. but then again Coruscant can be huge given that its original planet is build over with cityscape of several thousand layers, each layer a level as seen in 1313 trailer and tcw has skyscrapersize... so that more than easily doubles the planetary diameter even maybe if some computerscreens are taken literally from those aforementioned sources. so is the Atlas/sourcebook diameter of Coruscant the original planet or does it include cityscape up to the surface?

    but I never intended the spheres to be Death Star size to begin with, merely the core of the death Star over which they build layer after layer like with coruscant cityscape. or rather the outer layer of DS surface anchored to the habitations phere for moving it around till all in between habitation sphere core and outer DS skin is filled in by workers.
     
  12. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 10, 2004

    Kuat: depending on what we talk, KDY has not just the ring but the entire system filled with shipyardspacestations... can those be DS size or just many smaller but still huge ones spread across the system? See my some time ago Kuat society, etc. yadda topic that discussed this already in detail with sources.

    see my above post, before I read yours I had the same thought on the DS using the core of something else and tying the outer surface to it via these branches before the in between got filled ;)

    there still is the concept art for ROTS with the Death Star surrounded by lots of smaller yet big spheres assisting its construction etc. reminded me of your line about "whatever big enough was handy". so we could recycle two concept arts in one retcon actually to make it all work ;)
     
  13. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 10, 2004

    artistic license works for a lot of things.. but Dark Empires artistic license Star Destroyers are now a huge branch of variants and cruisers thx to the Warfare guide... so I say.. artistic license is just the first step of something awesome being born into canon ;)
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Don't know about "doubles"- I could see the cityscape being a couple of km deep, maybe even 10 or so- but not 6000 km- which is what it would need to be to double Coruscant's size from 12000 km diameter to 24000 km diameter.

    The point I was making was- those spheres appear to be in low orbit. Maybe a few hundred km above the cityscape. Talus and Tralus can't be that close to each other (with Centerpoint in between).
     
  15. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 10, 2004

    well Coruscant has how many levels? 1313 at minimum but closer to 2000 as we know. level 1313 in trailer and tcw was as thick as a skyscraper that fit into it upside down or vice versa. so several hundred meters for 1 of those levels. + several hundred meters in between level of complete cityscape (see the thick nonempty parts between the empty level exists in the tube connecting them!). so educated guess of 300m level + 300m between levels gets me 600-1000m per level multiplied with 2000 levels... 2000000m or 2000km of cityscape radius.. thus 4000km added to the diameter of coruscant proper. and that from canon visuals extrapolated alone. sure somewhere levels are thinner or thicker, but I go by visual evidence there. so coruscants 12000km get turned into 16000km if our math, guesses and all are correct. so ok, not double maybe.. but still quite a lot and lots more than your assumed 10km.

    ps: Worst case we can still outfit a 160km habitation sphere with holoprojectors to make it look 950km :p if only the Rebel pilots knew they evaded holographic walls in ROTJ initially :p
     
  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Wookieepedia says 5127 levels:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coruscant

    I would have said those are short levels though- as in, like floors on a skyscraper.

    So, it's like coating the planet in 5127-floor skyscrapers. Thick, but not especially so.

    EDIT:
    Interestingly, 500 Republica
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/500_Republica
    is characterized as being just over 1000 storeys high, with its bottom level being 200 m above the crust of Coruscant.
     
  17. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Chosen One star 6

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    Sep 8, 2004
    It's 1000 storeys are probably measured in the same scale as Ob-Wan's 1000 generations.

    For everyday purposes, the GFFA clearly uses a different standard base than log10. :p
     
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  18. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 10, 2004
    short levels is not canon... see tcw and the 1313 trailer. clearly shows levels as the thick thingies... so my 2000 guess is wrong. 5000+ levels then adds not 4000km but mor elike 8000-9000km to the diameter... holy Waru that is thick!
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Maybe those are megalevels?
     
  20. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 10, 2004
    not possible since TCW episode taking place mostly in one of those levels had multistorybuildings in said level and all still took place in the same level which is the big thing. that also can be seen in the computergraphic in the 1313 trailer as it counts the exits.. not stories/floors if you follow it closely.

    if megalevels.. then it is 5000+ megalevels still. no way around that. however you call it.
     
  21. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 10, 2004

    500Republica being in a mountain region close to Manarai mountains where the citycrust on top of the surface is much thinner than elsewhere with the 5000+ levels. Jedi Temple, Manarai Mountains and Monument Plaza mark the boarders of the huge Manarai Mountain range below the capital city part of Coruscant where it is indeed more like 2000storeys high possibly unlike elsewhere where it is much thicker. take a planet like MARS f.e. with mountains that go 16km up and you see that the manarai mountains can be that high despite the levels being way more elsewhere.
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Mountain height is heavily dependant on planet size- the smaller the planet, the higher mountains can go.

    Mars's high mountains are also partly due to them being volcanos over hotspots and Mars not having plate tectonics.

    Hence my theory that "level" can mean different things- there's 5000+ storeys (which are sometimes called levels)- but not nearly as many major layers.

    A layer might be thick enough to have multistorey buildings in- but when "level" refers to such a thick layer, there's not going to be thousands of them.

    Otherwise- even if 500 Republica is some 3 km high (3 m per storey) and on top of a 10 km high mountain range (13 km total) it would be dwarfed by your proposed 4000 km thick cityscape.

    (and this might be an overestimate of 500 Republica's height, since the Imperial Palace is specifically listed as 3 km high on Wookieepedia, and as the tallest building on Coruscant.)
     
  23. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 10, 2004

    I see your concerns and point but it does not yet convince me. I hope you will, cause I know the dangers in my approach too. maximalism is not always optimal here.but minimalism simply does not fit the facts and canon.

    500 Republica needs to have more than 3m per level due to senators staying there often, and many species are over 3m even.. like Ho'din or however they are spelled. so with service tunnels etc. 5m per level for 500 Republica is minimum I guess. especially given coruscanti megalomanic buildings with high ceilings.

    my 4000km thick cityscape (or whatever number it will be in a higher range) is the standard size for average Coruscant surface to citysurface. in republic city/imperial city, the government district, it is much thinner due to the mountains taking away from the levels especially around the Jedi Temple distruct and Monument Plaza or the manarai mountain range for hikers. there cityscape really is just ca. 10km thick as per old WEG sources approximately. So in this region there are less levels (except they hollowed the mountains and built INTO the surface of old Coruscant even, which makes a lot of sense actually and fits other sources of subterran oceans and systems below the crushed citylevels on top of which the lowest undercity levels rest.

    so we got maybe, this is a guess now to illustrate my point, 5000 levels total. lowest 1000 levels are thinner since crushed by the weight of the city (see WEG and Jedi Academy Trilogy + sourcebook). on top of that is the undercity. now we can assume that levelsize is constant.. but that is maximalism there. or we use minimalism and assume level equals 3-5m stories. both are not optimal.

    as for the Imp Palace... its 3km are on top of the current artificial surface... not measured from coruscants old surface. like the Jedi temple got lots of sublevels but only a tiny part is on top of the cityscape. that makes the Imperial Palace and 500 Republica still huge noticable buildings.. and remember the TPM and AOTC megabuildings in the background of the cityscape shots? those looked as large as 500 republica and Imp Palace were said to be.. so those should be even bigger I guess.
     
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The problem is, that a variance of between 10 km and 4000 km for the thickness of the cityscape is pretty catastrophic.

    Better a much lower variance, that makes for a less deformed planet.
     
  25. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Wookieepedia also says that the numbering of the levels is based on their distance from the planet's core, not the surface -- so 1313 is supposed to be 1313 levels from the core etc. I don't know if that's from a valid source, but if it is, then the term "level" definitely describes something other than cityscape layers, since the inhabited areas don't reach the core. Also, the feeling I got from the cartoon episodes was that the underworld scenes were supposed to take place underground (hence, the underground ;) ).