MOD LACWAC - Management Statement on Harassment & Poor Behaviour

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Garth Maul, Sep 15, 2012.

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  1. koonfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 4
    Just thought I'd give my two cents, because I do believe in what the mods are striving for, and I don't believe they mean it as oppressive, totalitarian censorship. Everyone knows that's Darth Kowak's monkey-lizard domain. Also, apologies if this is simply rehashing some of what's been said. ;)^:)^

    See, when I started out here, I had no idea what to expect. But I did find over time that even if people didn't agree with my take on things, we could still respect the differences and maybe even walk away with something from the other guy. Like GGrievous said, things could get heated, but they were always civil. I didn't really feel like my rights to express myself were threatened, because I didn't see a threat. I saw an opportunity. New insights, whether they were similar or different, which helped paint a larger picture. It took me awhile and I've had some scrapes, but I actually did appreciate all the views, especially if there was some good, proper insight to it. And I think one reason I was able to enjoy an environment like that is because of two reasons: 1) Our dedicated and well balanced mod squad ([face_whistling]) , and 2) The individual efforts of everyone to, if not agree, at least be open and considerate to others. And similarly, this sort of attitude would have been close to impossible if: 1) I was so touchy that I saw every differing opinion as a personal attack, and 2) Those differing opinions were phrased or directed with the traits of an attack. ([face_beatup])

    The show, as a whole, has fluctuated a lot, I will admit. It's produced a considerable amount of discussion over various aspects, but I do think that at the end of the day, it was still civil. Sure, we might have thought "Heh, they think something different?", but as far as I could tell, we never meant any harm. The worst we had were playful japes, like "Leave it to you to like a Jar Jar episode :p" or highly involved but civil posts. Even if we were essentially down to posting our views regardless of what the other person thought, it was seldom done in a way which forced one view onto another or demeaned the views of the other guy. And I think it was made possible because we learned not to take it so personally or harshly. I can't claim to speak for everyone I ever agreed or disagreed with, but I'd like to think those goals were achieved because we were thinking of others first, not ourselves.

    It's true that I'm out of the loop, so I do sincerely apologise if I'm not accounting for developments and history, but that's where I stand. A forum like this is a place where freedom to express one's view isn't based solely on focus on your own side, and that others are NOT just there to put you down. It's a place where we can exchange views, have proper, intelligent, and (VERY importantly!) fun discussions. If we can look at them and gain something, all the better. But if not, perhaps we could show some common courtesy and allow 'the other guy' some space, the way we've been given that space ourselves? Certainly, I do greatly appreciate how many users from my time kept my Optimism Thread and Stuff-We'll-Never-See Thread a safe and on-topic place.

    tl;dr. At the end of the day, I don't think freedom of speech alone is enough. I believe that we need that mutual respect, restraint and understanding, too. Not because it's 'politically correct' or 'being sensitive to your feelings', but because I do believe it's part and parcel of true discussion, which goes BOTH ways. And that goes for ALL sides of the spectrum. If holding your tongue a bit more is the price for that feeling and environment, I'd say it's worth it. Whether you agree with me or not, I hope that I've at least given you some food for thought, and I hope I can give you that same space. [face_peace]

    Like Paul once said (which I am paraphrasing XD), "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial"!

    Addendum: Oh, and I know for a fact that it's entirely possible to get along just fine with guys on the opposite camp. GGrievous and I may not talk or agree much at first glance, but in the times I've interacted, he's been a perfectly nice and involved member of the community. [:D]
  2. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Holy crap, a wild Koonfan appeared!
    koonfan and Dark Lord Tarkas like this.
  3. LawJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2009
    star 4
  4. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    The woodwork apparently has lots of space ;)
  5. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    I figure I might as well give my opinion, too.

    I'm critical of the show, this is known. As such many would classify me as a "hater" -- I prefer EU fan ;)
    Just to clear up some things: those who love the show aren't the only ones who've been 'harassed' here due to their opinion of the show. I've been made to feel I wasn't welcome in the TV forum because I wasn't an instant lover of TCW; I've been told "why are you even here if you don't like the show?", I've been told to leave so that "real fans" of the show could discuss. I've been told I'm not a "real fan", and that hurts. Because of this I felt the need to make the EPCCCC, a place where I could discuss what I consider flaws of the show without being told "it's Lucas' story so deal with it".

    I just want to make it known that those considered 'fans' aren't the only ones who've faced a hostile environment on these boards.
    Esg, GGrievous and Zeta1127 like this.
  6. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    I have to agree with the Mod Squad's decision on this. Like others have said, there's a difference between two people with different viewpoints having a discussion and an all-out flamewar that derails a thread and makes everybody uncomfortable. I know that, compared to a lot of users, I haven't been around long. However, have to say that, when I signed up two and a half years ago, there was a lot more harmony around these parts. Yes, people disagreed. They even argued. But for the most part it was all done with respect and maturity.

    Another thing that has bothered me lately is the line that seems to have been drawn between "haters" and "gushers". A few years ago, people freely stated their opinions without being labled an "optimist-class fan" or a "Filoni hater". It seems to me that, even though we've created a fun "LACWACy" meme, there's still underlying hostility any time the show itself is being discussed. I still love the forum and the users but I wish we could go back to the good ol' days when everybody spoke their minds without fear of being attacked for it. [face_peace]

    In other news, it's great to have members from LACWAC's past signing back on! Welcome back, @koonfan and @LawJedi!
    Last edited by fistofan1, Sep 20, 2012
    koonfan and GGrievous like this.
  7. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    @fistofan1 Glad to see that you have a Luke icon again. :p
    fistofan1 likes this.
  8. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    @GGrievous I love how your icon fits any situation. Obi-Wan could either be face-palming or breathing a sigh of relief. :p
  9. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I suddenly feel that balance has been restored to the Force.
    fistofan1 likes this.
  10. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I am a "hater" out of respect for the Clone Wars multimedia project, since TCW has rebooted the Clone Wars for no reason. I love much of the EU as much as I love the films. Even though George Lucas created the universe, that doesn't mean he should reboot anything from the EU. The intentional disregard for the EU exhibited by TCW should not be condoned, which is why I boycott the TCW brand.
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That's your choice, but it is possible to like TCW show and the CW EU work. I'll pull Jedi Trial as an example since it's one work that I know has been retconned--I liked the book, but it really just is not important to me in the larger scheme of things that Anakin's knighting date was changed or that he was given a Padawan. The Mary Sue'ing of his Padawan has annoyed me of late, but her existence itself, I'm fine with.

    I'm not a details person, and Anakin is who he is, regardless of the year he was knighted. My only concern is that since the show brought in Ahsoka, it needs to make her influential in Anakin's development somehow.

    I can't comment on this forum specifically as far as old vs. new, but the abominably stupid "fans vs haters" debate along with the even more stupid "if you have X opinion, you aren't a real fan" statements have been going on in the Movie forums for over 10 years. I'm not condoning it, in fact, it disgusts me and I call people on it when I see it; my only point is that it is not unique to here.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Sep 20, 2012
    eht13 likes this.
  12. TheAvengerButton Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2011
    star 1
    Nevermind.
    Last edited by TheAvengerButton, Sep 20, 2012
  13. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I think a lot of the "haters" and "gushers" have been characterized as such by the tone some posters "hear" in posts - like Zeta says, her "educate people on TCW" riled a number of folks ("as if we need educating" was one response), and a "why do you post" is heard as I don't want to hear your opinion.

    I think questions posed as "why" should be heard as fairly neutral in tone - why is inviting a response, a discussion (at least, in my opinion). Why do you like...why do you dislike...why do you think...

    With that said, there are some self-admitted haters but I'm not too sure about the gushers - most of those deemed "gushers" dislike things about TCW but seem (IMHO) to be seeking balanced responses, not 100% "TCW is the greatest evah" or "TCW sucks and that's the truth."

    (Note that's just my opinion and is apt to be wrong as it is to be right, or sorta right or sorta wrong.)
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Sep 20, 2012
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  14. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Well, I feel that sometimes I have to go out of my way to stress that something is just my opinion, when that should just be a given.

    If I say "Episode X sucked, they shouldn't have done Y" I'm at a much bigger risk of a "Well, that's just like your opinion, man" response, than if I state "IMO Episode X sucked, they shouldn't have done Y." I can understand frustration if one person presumes to speak of another/others like "most people hate/love [whatever]" without any kind of statistics or source to back them up. In such cases, saying something like "I think" or "I would guess" can make a world of difference between sounding arrogant and stating a guess. But other times it just seems like people are getting talked down to regarding their opinion, when it's just a given that it is indeed just their opinion.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Sep 20, 2012
  15. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you that when I've used "that's your opinion," it hasn't been in this forum. The movie forums will have threads in which someone will pop in and state "Anakin wasn't likable" as if it were fact, and my response is always, "Oh really? I liked him just fine. How hard is it to just say that you didn't like him, instead of stating your opinion as objective fact?" Just because one person or even several people didn't like a show or a character, does not mean that the show or character "isn't likable." Wording can make all the difference.

    Not making a judgment on your specific posts, as I don't remember the ones in question.
    Robimus likes this.
  17. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    No its not possible, not when I can only see the events of the Clone Wars multimedia project happening their original order, because of RotS novelization.
  18. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    @anakinfansince1983 : that's a good point. I think a lot of those annoying and arrogant attitudes seem to actually be more prevalent in the movie forums than in LACWAC. The use of memes and running jokes in LACWAC has sometimes led to the impression by some that it's a more hostile environment than it probably really is, when a lot of it is more tongue in cheek, etc. I like posting in both places, but they each have a different type of environment.
    Robimus and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    It may not be possible for you, but it certainly is possible for some of us to like both TCW show and the Clone Wars era EU that preceded the show.

    And I'm not sure what the ROTS novelization has to do with anything.
  20. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    It does make me laugh when people state their opinions as fact and can't believe someone would actually challenge them.

    But I don't think there's a need to have "IMO" or "IMHO" before every point.
  21. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    The RotS novelization mentions places such as Jabiim, Aargonar, and Muunilinst, along with other battles, so I only believe that events such as those and others like them could have happen. What happened on Jabiim and Aargonar was depicted in the Republic comics, while Muunilinst is of course from GTCW (the micro-series). The bottom line is "I was happy where I was" when it comes to the Clone Wars timeline.
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    "But...but...but...I thought this was universal! I didn't think there would be a controversy! And "most fans" do agree with me!"

    Yes, I've gotten versions of that one many times.

    Seriously, you (general "you" of course) have an opinion, own it. Stop acting like you need the bandwagon. Even if "most people" do agree with you, that doesn't make your opinion any more valid than anyone else's opinion. I think some people use the bandwagon as an attempt to shut down opposing arguments, and that's part of what irritates the **** out of me about it.

    Not even sure where you're going with this as far as mentioning the battles--did the show actually say those didn't happen? It's fine to be happy where you were, but again, that does not make it impossible for some of us to like both versions.

    I'll chalk some of it up to not being a details person. Muunilist, for example: how important was it? Did any major characters die? Did any major characters' lives change in a way that was reflected in ROTS? Does it really matter if they fought a battle in a specific place on Muunilist (or on Muunilist at all) at a specific time? To me, no, unless I am shown that it makes a difference in overall development of a major character in the larger scope of the story.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Sep 20, 2012
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  23. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Really? I was not the one who posted my dislike of your phrase about "educating." Nor have I, as far as I am aware, ever asked "why do you post" but even if I did, it would be an honest question. I did ask you or Mia a similar question, I believe, and I remember receiving a civil answer to whatever the question was, so you honestly have me confused with someone or wires got crossed somewhere, because asking "why" to clarify something is something that should be encouraged, I would think.

    In the interest of keeping this neutral and to the point, I'm not going to speculate further, but please feel free to PM if there's something that needs airing - perhaps we do have a misunderstanding somewhere that can be easily rectified.
  24. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Muunilinst is where Anakin got command of the space forces and before eventually pursuing Asajj Ventress to Yavin 4. Geonosis, Jabiim, Aargonar, and Muunilinst are mentioned int the RotS novelization because the battles that Anakin participated in on those planets had an impact on him. TCW doesn't have any impact on the character development to me because everything has been drastically altered.

    Are you not referring to me with this pronoun?
    Last edited by Zeta1127, Sep 20, 2012
  25. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Oh, THAT pronoun. I'm not mistaken, am I, that it was you who said that and clarified it when another poster reacted to it? Note I didn't say you said anything wrong, only that the comment got a reaction which got a clarification, etc.
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