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CT Lars VS. Kenobi

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Obi-Wan sweetie, Jul 3, 2014.

  1. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    What about where they don't "align"?

    It has been many years since I've read them but there are points which contradict the movies - it doesn't make sense to accept some things as fact and reject others.

    Making Owen and Obi-Wan brothers is never mentioned until that version of the screenplay that James Kahn was working off - Lucas was trying to tie up as many loose ends as he could because he done with Star Wars (that was why he changed the plan for Luke's sibling to not appear until the Sequel trilogy to being Leia, etc)

    However, it raises more questions than it answers like why is Obi-Wan such heartless individual that he doesn't grieve for his brother, why are the the surnames different, etc.

    The fact is that it doesn't make sense for them to be brothers in light of Kenobi's non-reaction to Owen and Beru's death.

    This leaves Lucas with needing to explain why Owen and Beru are chosen - Lucas had a multitude of of possibilties (pilot or soldier in the Clone Wars who fought with the Jedi, etc.)

    He went with step-brother

    Makes a lot more sense than the original RotJ idea

    "So - until Episode II came out - Owen was Obi-Wan's brother. After Episode II came out, he wasn't."

    No he wasn't - it was just an idea that was abandoned in the writing process.

    The idea of not accepting novelisations as canon is no more "crazy" than accepting them as canon.

    However, it makes little sense to insist that a plotpoint dropped from RotJ 30 years ago is more valid than the plotpoint which became qctually valid 10 years ago, and one that makes more sense, at that

    And the fact is, that now, none of the novelisations are canon.

    One of the best things about reading the novelisation used to be seeing demented that didn't make the final cut of the movie - this fan obsession with canon means that future comic adaptations and movie novelisations will lose the reasons they exists at all and just show us what is in the movie (and what us the point of that)
     
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
  3. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014

    Agree completely. With the Obi Wan example above while the ROTJ novelisation said Owen and Obi Wan are brothers it makes little sense on reflection. Its very true that often novelizations are written from scripts which are then altered at a later stage, or draws on backstory that sequels prove to be incorrect ( for those who complain about the Owen Obi Wan example, what about the fact that Palpatine was not a Sith in the Star Wars novelisation).
    My favorite Star Wars novelization is ROTS because it has an entirely different structure to the film and really uses the medium to its own advantage making it a brilliant work in its own right.

    The idea that a novelization should be canon is flawed once you think about it. If a novel is canon and the extra backstory etc contained is sacrosant then how can we complain if plot points etc are not explained in the actual movie? Its generally agreed that a movie sucks if we have to read the novel or wait for the commentary track on the DVD to understand what is going on, So how can we expect a sequel to be beholden to something that the average viewer has no idea about.
     
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  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    The ANH novel doesn't say much about Palpatine and whether he has The Force or not - but it does portray him as a puppet ruler:

    Another galaxy, another time.
    The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that ... it was the Republic.
    Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.
    So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.
    Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.
    Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.
    Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.
    But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.
    From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples...

    And Vader is only portrayed as a Sith in the OT in the novelizations - the OT movies never use the word.
     
  5. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    I didn't actually notice the "" in your post (if I had I would have asked you the source) and I had seen from several sources that the novelisations were now not canon in this new era of films and books.

    That is complete nonsense - like I said earlier it is silly that some elements are accurate and others should just be ignored.

    I had assumed that Del Ray were just going to commission six new novelisations and put the others under the Legend banner

    This is exactly the reason why the novelisations can't be canon

    They are fun because it shoes other ideas and plot lines that Lucas had - there is no point in reading a novelisation if it is exactly the same as the movie

    In this new canon era the Episode VII novelisation will not contain such wild inaccuracies but it should also contain extras - scenes cut from the finished movie, backgrounds of main characters or supporting characters that they meet, etc. - things that aren't contradicted by the movie but stuff that enhances the story
     
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Quite a lot of the OT and PT novelisations do enhance the story - even if they have moments of different dialogue.

    Hence the "if it aligns with what's on screen" caveat.
     
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  7. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 10, 2014

    I suppose technically the novels only align where they completely agree with what is on screen. the rest ( including extra scenes) is divergence :p. Seriously good to know but a bit odd. That said I suppose its easier to reissue the books than have them rewritten ( also ungracious to the authors). Still its questionable in so far as what about when the dialogue is or way events unfold is slightly different? Or Character motivations? a divergence is a divergence after all.
     
  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I figure that when the dialogue (or the scene) is noticeably different (as opposed to being an additional scene)- the movie takes precedence.

    The novels are for inner monologue, feelings, and sometimes bonus scenes that were cut because otherwise the movies would have been "too long".

    It's a bit harder to tell when a Motivation outright contradicts the movie version of the character's motivation - since we never know for sure in a movie what a character is really thinking.
     
  9. Visitant

    Visitant Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 20, 2014
    It makes sense to me—as Iron_lord said, the novels are for inner monologue, feelings, and sometimes bonus scenes. Besides, it wouldn't be any less silly if they said the novelizations were canon when it made no difference whether they were canon or not, i.e., if everything not on the screen was divergence.
     
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  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    While the junior novelisations are closer to the movies - even they differ now and again.
     
  11. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009

    Yes, absolutely and I wouldn't want the old novelisation to put out of print or anything, but it silly to consider them as canon when they are factually inaccurate.

    I would make more sense to file them under Legends and put to paper novelisations without the mention of ducks, Qui-Gon's age being 60, Yoda being blue, etc.


    Extra or alternate dialogue, more backstory, character motivation are all essential in novelisations of movies.

    And no I don't think they hold be put out to pasture as the canon conflicts are a part of the charm.


    I would imagine the character motivation in the books came from discussions with Lucas himself.

    Also, I don't think future novelisations need to be 100% accurate - dialogue may change or a light sabre colour be altered or a scene cut at the last minute and the author not be told

    But Palptine being a puppet of others, Owen and Obi-Wan, etc. are too important

    [quote="Visitant, post: 51672141, member: 1383534"
    It makes sense to me—as Iron_lord said, the novels are for inner monologue, feelings, and sometimes bonus scenes. Besides, it wouldn't be any less silly if they said the novelizations were canon when it made no difference whether they were canon or not, i.e., if everything not on the screen was divergence.

    As for Del Ray commissioning six new novelizations (actually it would have to be seven, including The Clone Wars), I highly doubt it. I think if they were doing that, they would have said so, rather than saying that the current novelizations are canon.[/quote]

    Well, if it made sense to us all we wouldn't have anything interesting to talk about ;)

    Yes, the novelisations are for those extra elements but some plot points that are more important are wrong.


    Besides, it wouldn't be any less silly if they said the novelizations were canon when it made no difference whether they were canon or not, i.e., if everything not on the screen was divergence. - I don't follow -

    I never said Del Ray said they were publishing new version - I had heard at the time of the Legends announcement that the six novelisations were not part of the canon because of the innacuracies so I assumed they'd be publishing new adaptations at some stage - earlier Iron Lord posted a link to article that showed they were considered canon unless it was wrong ;) so I now know I was misinformed (or ay least that I misheard in the first place)
     
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  12. Visitant

    Visitant Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 20, 2014
    Ah, I guess I edited my post too late—I realized after a few minutes that I had misunderstood. :p My apologies.
     
  13. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 7, 2009

    It's all good ;)
     
  14. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 10, 2014
    I'm wondering about that. Reason being Count Dooku, see Lucas says in the commentaries that he wanted to show that a Jedi, even an older Jedi could turn to the dark side. Fair enough, However the ROTS novelisation seems to characterise Dooku as a sociopath, which kind of defeats the purpose of a Jedi can fall surely?

    Just a vague thought though.
     
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Maybe the Jedi "non-attachment doctrine" means that a sociopath is hard for them to detect - since they would be naturally non-attached.

    He is the icon of the Separatist movement, its public face. He is to the Confederacy of Independent Systems what Palpatine is to the Republic: the living symbol of the justice of its cause.
    This is the public story.
    This is the story that even Dooku, in his weaker moments, almost believes.
    The truth is more complicated.
    Dooku is... different.
    He doesn't remember quite when he discovered this; it may have been when he was a young Padawan, betrayed by another learner who had claimed to be his friend. Lorian Nod had said it to his face: "You don't know what friendship is."
    And he didn't.
    He had been angry, certainly; furious that his reputation had been put at risk. And he had been angry at himself, for his error in judgment: trusting as an ally one who was in fact an enemy. The most astonishing part of the whole affair had been that even after turning on him before the Jedi, the other boy had expected him to participate in a lie, in the name of their "friendship."
    It had been all so preposterous that he hadn't known how to reply.
    In fact, he has never been entirely sure what beings mean when they speak of friendship.
    Love, hate, joy, anger—even when he can feel the energy of these emotions in others, they translate in his perception to other kinds of feelings.
    The kinds that make sense.
    Jealousy he understands, and possessiveness: he is fierce when any being encroaches on what is rightfully his.
    Intolerance, at the intractability of the universe, and at the undisciplined lives of its inhabitants: this is his normal state.
    Spite is a recreation: he takes considerable pleasure from the suffering of his enemies.
    Pride is a virtue in an aristocrat, and indignation his inalienable right: when any dare to impugn his integrity, his honor, or his rightful place atop the natural hierarchy of authority.
    And moral outrage makes perfect sense to him: when the incorrigibly untidy affairs of ordinary beings refuse to conform to the plainly obvious structure of How Society Ought To Be.
    He is entirely incapable of caring what any given creature might feel for him. He cares only what that creature might do for him. Or to him.
    Very possibly, he is what he is because other beings just aren't very ... interesting.
    Or even, in a sense, entirely real.
    For Dooku, other beings are mostly abstractions, simple schematic sketches who fall into two essential categories.
    The first category is Assets: beings who can be used to serve his various interests. Such as—for most of his life, and to some extent even now—the Jedi, particularly Mace Windu and Yoda, both of whom had regarded him as their friend for so long that it had effectively blinded them to the truth of his activities. And of course—for now—the Trade Federation, and the InterGalacticBanking Clan, the Techno Union, the Corporate Alliance, and the weapon lords of Geonosis. And even the common rabble of the galaxy, who exist largely to provide an audience of sufficient size to do justice to his grandeur.
    The other category is Threats. In this second set, he numbers every sentient being he cannot include in the first.
    There is no third category.
     
  16. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Iron Lord you are brilliant for your ability to find just the right novel quote. The idea the non attachment doctrine lets sociopaths through is a whole type of fridge horror given the power of the Jedi. Love it.
     
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  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I wonder if Krell was one of those?
     
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  18. Sariel2005

    Sariel2005 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Well I doubt he was the touchy feely sort, even with four arms LOL
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The war itself could have corrupted him somewhat.