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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Laura Dern (Vice Admiral Amilyn Holdo) in TLJ

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by CEB, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. VanLiz

    VanLiz Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2002
    I was so impressed with the way she chose to go out. Not only did she stop the FO from destroying more Resistance ships, she took out Snoke's ship at the same time. Light speed kamikaze.
     
  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Because from what Leia said, Holdo knew how the FO was tracking them, this new device, and she knew it's limitations, can't track small ships.
    So a mole was not responsible for the FO tracking them, this new device was.

    If a mole was the issue, which no one mentions, then Holdo's plan makes no sense.
    As soon as the shuttles are getting fueled or people are told to board, that mole could alert the FO and they are screwed.

    If the FO finds out 1 hour before the shuttles launch, five minutes before or five minutes after, it doesn't matter. Those shuttles are sitting ducks. Their speed is limited, they can't jump and so once they are out in space, the FO can blast them, which they did.
    So again, IF a mole was the issue, then Holdo can't keep this a secret forever.
    The shuttles have to be fueled, people must be told to board.
    If there is a mole, then that mole can simply alert the FO before or just after the shuttles launch and they are all dead.

    Holdo treated him with condescension and a dismissive attitude. It is her choice to act like that but she shouldn't be surprised when it comes back to bite her in the backside.
    Poe acted like a fool as well so there is blame to go around.

    Like in RotS, the jedi act like **** towards Anakin and then demand that he spy on a person he views as a close friend. No surprise, this backfired.
    Anakin was in the wrong yes but the council did not help the matter by their attitude either.

    [/QUOTE]

    Holdo knows she is in command of ship filled with people full of fear and this close to panic.
    Giving vague platitudes isn't the best choice here.
    Tell them a bit more, that they are heading to a old rebel base, that there is a solid plan.
    And again, fear of a mole is not a good enough reason.
    If she had given that as a reason then it would be something, now she doesn't tell Poe because the plot needs it.
    This sort of thing bothered me in the PT and it bothers me here, people doing stupid things just so that the plot can move forward.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  3. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    It's true that if there was a mole it would be game over anyway. So I would think Holdo would just be hoping there wasn't a mole. A mole could indeed contact the FO when on one of the transports, or when on Crait.

    And if she had been concerned about a mole all along I would think she'd already have thought out Plan B of ramming the Raddus into the Supremacy at lightspeed. She obviously hadn't thought that out since she watched several Resistance ships destroyed before she decided to ram the Supremacy.

    It's odd though that she hadn't thought that out anyway... a "what if they see us anyway" scenario.

    The other factor though is that if there is a mole and that mole doesn't know the plan until on a transport, the Resistance still has more time to send a signal to their allies than if the mole contacted the FO way before they boarded the transports. If the FO were alerted early they could send a detachment to Crait early and take the Resistance out more easily.
     
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  4. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
  5. KSennia

    KSennia Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2012
    I wish they wouldn't have killed her.
     
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  6. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
  7. Darth Dnej

    Darth Dnej Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2013
    *Sigh* I don't like this idea, personally. Wish it would've been revealed in the movie though. So many force-sensitives among the main and supporting cast, and so few that are trained or really know much about the force.
    What's next? That DJ, Finn, Rose, and Poe are all force-sensitive too?
    Look I'm not that mad about this. It's not the biggest deal, but why keep it a secret until now?
     
  8. Jamtia

    Jamtia Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Did the Leia book hint at any Holdo Force sensitivity? Maybe I’ll watch her part again, and maybe find some deeper appreciation, but yes being force sensitive and having it be revealed and saving the resistance that way would have been that much better.

    Still can’t get over how much I hate her character and how I wish Ackbar made the sacrifice over her. She would then have one more movie to add to that character.
     
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  9. Vicarious Fan

    Vicarious Fan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2013
    no it's just something Laura Dern said in an interview with EW. She felt that Holdo was force sensitive. This isn't official it sounds more like it was to troll angry fanboys.

    Queue people complaining about it.
     
  10. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Uh no, Laura Dern is not trolling anybody. Believe it or not, most people are actually not motivated by feeling gleeful upon angering people.
     
  11. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Considering every living thing in the galaxy is force sensitive to varying degrees, Laura is 100% correct.
     
  12. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    It ultimately matters about as much in the context of the film as her being bi/pansexual does. That is, not at all because it's never comes up, nor does it fix the underlying problems with that plotline/her character.
     
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  13. Jamtia

    Jamtia Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Yeah I don’t think anything she says can make me hate or like her character more already than I do. The damage is done and Ackbar’s legacy was affected by it.
     
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  14. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Holdo is also from Gatalenta, which has a Force-centered culture. Holdo is thinking about the Force regardless.
     
  15. Solo88

    Solo88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Of course Holdo is Force sensitive. The Force is….
     
  16. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Well here we go, they're trying to rehabilitate her character in the comics. She doesn't get in Poe's face and she specifically says "I have a plan". Too bad they didn't realize there were problems when they made the actual film.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  17. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Problems???

    A few notes --

    Seeing this panel just reminds me how much i dislike the art in this series.

    I would love a Holdo miniseries or one shot. I hope dark horse does one.

    Was it me or is there just excellent chemistry between Laura dern and Oscar Isaac? I could watch them together all day
     
  18. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Hmm, her character needs rehabilitation? Having only seen the film yesterday, and staying completely away from discussions, I'm not aware of the reception toward her character.

    That out of the way, I quite liked the way the scene in the panel is depicted in the movie. I thought it made Poe look like a stupid jackass, and I rather liked having him put in his place by a superior officer. Poe only continued to prove what a reckless, dangerous, mutinous fool he is for the rest of the movie, wrecking Holdo's plan and getting many of his comrades killed. I'm not sure why the entire fleet didn't line him up and shoot him once they got to Crait.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
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  19. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    I liked her. Particularly her design.

    Yeah, I'm with you here. Though I thought the scene where Leia and Holdo talk about how speshul Poe is after he's screwed up so many times didn't fit, and I didn't like how Leia then gave Poe the reigns anyway ("don't look at me, follow him"). Oh well.
     
  20. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I see the issues with her character as being the total accumulation of all her scenes and the contradictions they end up displaying. Johnson fell in love with the idea of surprising the audience with a twist where an ancillary antagonist in an ancillary subplot turns out to be actually a heroic and reasonable authority figure, but the plotline constructed leads to a character who loses control of her crew through her contradictory and inconsistent actions and command style, and whose "brilliant, but simple" plan only even comes close to working because the film is portraying everyone involved in the Space Chase as idiots unable to put 2 and 2 together. Now, Dern and Johnson's portrayal of the character through acting and directing hits pretty much *exactly* the right emotional beats for the intended story, so as long as you don't think about the actual sequence of events in the plot. If you *do* think about the sequence of events in the plot, then the entire subplot becomes incredibly weak, and possibly mortally wounded by logic running totally contrary to its intended messages.

    Like, Holdo *can* reprimand an insubordinate and recently demoted officer, and refuse to brief him on the plan because she enforces strict discipline and professionalism... But then that same discipline and professionalism wouldn't allow that same insubordinate and recently demoted officer to challenge her authority and denounce her as a traitor on her own bridge. If the first event is to be taken seriously as a justified aspect fo her command style, than the second simply does not work; either Poe is being read in to the mission by a capable commander with a diplomatic style and patience with emotional crew members, or Poe is going straight to the brig and won't be able to accidentally expose the plan to DJ. The result is a plot point designated to show Holdo as a calm professional leader, with Poe alone at fault for the mistakes made, but the actual outcome of the sequence is to paint Holdo as a Captain Queeg character whose command mistakes make a bad situation worse. And if these events have compromised the evacuation plan, then really, Holdo should not be smiling about Poe, since he almost lead internecine warfare over the bridge of the Raddus, and Holdo utterly failed to prevent it despite clear and outright warnings.

    And when it comes to the actual plan, everything is just a wee bit stupider than it has to be. The only reason the Resistance even has a chance to from a plan is because Johnson wrote the FO as idiots unwilling to use their hyperspace, Starfighter, and capital ship advantages to end the chase in minutes... But the best plan the Resisatnce can come up with is one where, because they've been going towards a planet in space for 18 hours, they've failed to conceal their destination from the FO... So Johnson's doubles down on making them idiots by having none of the FO extrapolate how going in a straight line works in space with limited fuel... But then, the Resistance plan involves a cloaked ship that, as far as we're shown, doesn't have actual invisibility, while the First Order has these things called "Windows..." So Johnson dumbs down the FO even more by giving them a "decloaking scan" that they apparently needed to be told to use... Only for Holdo's last action to show that apparently every single major military mind on Star Wars, including herself, failed to realize how lightspeed + mass = Super-Weapon scale attack move until just now, long after she needlessly sacrificed the life of multiple transport captains when she should have made them missiles auto-piloted into the FO fleet.

    The entire plotline could have used significant reworking in the writing stage, especially since the main character element of the section is ultimately two minor characters in the ST, with the main leading one (Poe) being a character of so little consequence that eh was originally supposed to die in TFA.
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    That is not what happens. She loses one office who had already been rebuked for insubordination and poor leadership judgement but who's personal heroism has an influence on a small group of the officers. The vast majority of the crew did their jobs. Holdo cannot be expected to give Poe special handling while everyone else is treated just as they would expect to be.
     
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  22. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    And yet the only reason Resistance members aren't attacking each other on the bridge is because Leia wakes up and her reappearances stuns everyone long enough for her to stun Poe and de-escalate the situation. Poe and his supporters are set for a prolonged gunfight at a moment when crew cohesion is needed because Admirla Holdo will neither brief him nor enforce crew discipline, and not because it makes sense for a character Johnson and Dern are trying to portray, but because Johnson wants to make it a surprise when Poe turns out to be wrong, and is allowing his desire for a "twist" to overwhelm his skills as a logical writer.

    And if we're going to downplay Poe's mutiny by talking about its size, that really doesn't make the situation better; Holdo can't hold her own bridge from a handful of pilots and support staff led by a demoted officer she allowed to challenge her authority directly, and doesn't have enough crew attention for them to notice their commanding officer is beeing threatened in a giant public hanger? The scenario Johnson has created completely contradicts the competent and professional image he's trying to have Holdo express.

    The problem isn't really with the character concept of Admiral Holdo; a badass commanding officer in a dress who clashes with Poe over command styles and in reaction to his mistakes. The problem is that Johnson didn't write an intelligent plot to convey this point, instead taking narratives shortcuts and broad, archetypal writing insufficiently supported by cohesive internal logic. The result is a highly improbable story that ignores logic where it would be inconvenient, and all so that a character who was initially so minor he was supposed to die can be taught an important lesson that the film contradicts by having the correct option still be *really* stupid. And on top of this, the unintended lesson is that the film's diverse cast was in the wrong for not blindly listening to the white woman, the same white woman who the plot unintentionally has share the blame for the deaths of 90% of the Resistance but has smile beatifically at the guy who holds the lion's share of the problem.

    The subplot is supposed to be be a sharp character-based military drama with progressive themes and complex characters. Instead, the plot ends up being a mildly racist and possibly sexist random sequences of events that don't reflect any kind of common sense or military discipline on any parties' side.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
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  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    It's only Poe and one Connix on the bridge. Leia isn't doing anything that Holdo would not have done. And shows no compunction at putting him in his place, just like Holdo did. She's not defusing or de-escalating anything. It's because Poe has a special relationship with Leia that he's unable to stun her first.

    It's just another demonstration that Poe still needs to learn how and why chain of command works.
    All Poe wanted was a moment in order to make the jump to hyperspace once the tracker was confirmed as disabled.

    It's a bit ironic to criticise Holdo for not pandering to Poe on one hand but also for not putting a ring of steel around herself just in case he's convinced a handful of officers to mutiny.

    Perhaps Poe could have taken Holdo's relative defencelessness as a sign that she's not his enemy.
    I can't see the correlation with (undefined standards) intelligent writing and the main thrust of some people's reaction - which is that Holdo should have been nice to Poe and she wouldn't have had those problems.
     
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  24. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I've moved past the problem being *only* that she won't brief Poe on the plan; I actually think that decision has strong internal logic and consistency with Poe's recent demotion and insubordination. The standards I'm using to determine the intelligence of the plotline only deal with the lack of briefing *in the context* of that decision being paired with her lack of reaction to his calling her a traitor and loudly disputing her competence on her bridge.

    My standards are: In a plotline that depends on invoking some degree of military realism to accomplish its narrative objective, characters apply internally consistent decision making paradigms that do no contradict or undermine their logical basis.

    Why is Holdo not going to brief Poe? Because Poe was insubordinate and defiant to Leia's orders, undermining and countermanding them, resulting in the deaths and destruction of the bomber fleet. Poe is thus classified by Holdo, in this moment portrayed as a commander with a good disciplinarian streak, as a liability to the chain of command who abused his privileges as an officer and must be relieved of those privileges lest he wreak more havoc. So long as the film holds to this logic, we have intelligent writing; Poe's actions can believably deserve his demotion, and honestly, you don't really need any more scenes between Holdo and Poe in order to accomplish the narrative objective (mutinous Poe compromises the evacuation plan.)

    What is contradictory about letting Poe call Holdo a traitor and not get punished? It's the exact opposite type of decision making paradigm, flying directly in the face of Holdo's original portrayal at the start of the subplot. Poe is again abusing his privileges as an officer and hero to directly and overtly challenge and undermine Holdo's command, but rather than apply her earlier disciplinarian methods, Holdo applies diplomacy, contradicting her earlier decision that Poe's abuses should be prevented and be cut off, as he would be if she acted as a disciplinarian and had him arrested and thrown in the brig. Now, a diplomatic approach wouldn't be so bad if she applied the clear and effective diplomatic response; brief Poe on the plan (which is again absurdly simple and kind of stupid, but one which the film shows he would have accepted). But she doesn't; she arguably chooses the worst possible response to her scenario in the context of her previous decision. She neither enforces crew discipline nor defuses Poe with a quick briefing. She instead speechifies a bit and leaves the man who called her a traitor free to wander the ship and compromise their plan.

    See? The issue isn't any one decision. It's that the cumulative decisions work against the intended message of the subplot. The reason for the contradiction is also pretty clear; Johnson sought to obfuscate Holdo's heroic nature, emphasize her role as a minor antagonist in Poe's story, and preserve an ambiguity around her actions in an attempt to surprise the audience with the later reveal of her "correctness." But he failed to apply consistent logic by keeping Holdo's decision making paradigm consistent, or to apply logic to his plot afterwards by having Holdo portrayed as moderately flawed as an excuse for the inconsistency. And since the rest of the plot also relies on inconsistent and contradictory logic, there's less room to extrapolate an acceptable reason or to evaluate the issue as a forgivable mistake. One logical inconsistency is a mistake; when all the subplots are peppered with inconsistencies, we have bad writing.
     
  25. crazyewok

    crazyewok Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2017
    Actually she was a terrible admiral.

    For one her lack leadership caused a mutiny.

    Next, if ramming a ship at hyperspeed causes so much damage then why the hell did she not do the same with the smaller frigates as they ran out of fuel?

    She had confidence but lacked competence.