Learning to sword fight

I'm gonna have to say this: This is some of the worst information I've ever seen on lightsaber fighting.

I grow extremely weary of people thinking that having a belt in a martial art that does not train mainly with weapons, suddenly gives them knowledge of how to use a lightsaber. Also, the same goes for people who think that fencing and epee gives them superb insight. Martial arts are mainly for unarmed combat and fencing utilizes one handed weapons. A lightsaber is neither of these. If you're wanting to really learn to fight with a lightsaber type weapon, you should find your local SCA group (visit sca.org to find a group near you) and ask to learn to use a hand and 1/2 sword. The SCA is a society dedicated to medieval recreation. The most public part of the orbanization is is the combat. Combatants are required to wear armor because the weapons used are the equivalent of baseball bats. However, despite what most people think, the armor is not restrictive of movement. Before you start training with a hand and 1/2 sword some groups require that you first learn to use sword and shield (most common form). However, once you've picked that up reasonably well you can use whatever you'd like, including hand and 1/2, florentine (2 swords), great swords (6 ft), polearms, axes, and daggers.

This is the only form of training I've heard of that gives high quality lightsaber style weapon training. The rest can't even come close. Just to illustrate my example: One day a second degree blackbelt, coming home from one of his meets thought he could stand up against one of the SCA fighters that had been fighting for 4 years. The black belt refused to wear the armor standards of the SCA and fought anyway. Using his weapons he was completely unable to match the SCA fighter in sword combat. He ended up with two broken bones. I bring this up just to illustrate that Martial Arts are unarmed combat first, weapon training distant second. Therefore if someone asks a question on lightsaber fighting, Martial arts are not a good answer.

As for fencing, it also does not translate very well to using a lightsaber style weapon. A standard stance for fighting is completely different than that of a two handed weapon. Fencing also has strict rules on what kinds of attacks can be made and most are thrusts. Epee comes slightly closer. However it's still not the same as using a two handed weapon.

Also, someone mentioned said something to the effect of some martial art being "a hack and draw your blade thing which is what lightsaber fighting basically is." Unless I mininterpreted your comment, then that is completely wrong. I cannot think of even one example of a time when a lightsaber was drawn in the way I think you're describing it.

Also keep in mind that lightsaber fighting has evolved since ANH originally came out. At that time, it was mostly based on fencing. However, as Nick Gilliard (lead fight coordinator) stated, it now incorporates many different stlyes of fighting including several martial arts, fencing and tree chopping. This only leads me back to my original statement. Saying one martial art is a good way to learn to swordfight is not accurate nor is saying fencing is. The unless you plan to study several martial arts and fencing and chop some trees, there isn't a perfect answer on how to lightsaber fight. However, the closest thing you can get is the SCA since it is the only group that I know of that only does armed combat.

If I have offended anyone I apologize but I believe that this rant adequately defends my position.

 

It's refreshing to hear comments about technique and style; and not the usual "Yoda kicks butt" or that Christopher Lee "has" to be a great sword fighter because he's done sword fighting in past films.

I did an interview with Peter Diamond (choreographer for OT, Highlander, et al) and was impressed with his knowledge and professionalism. He trained at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts (one of the best in the world; most say the best) and understands that the sword fight in cinema has to tell a story. Moreover, he's humble in a profession known for its testosterone and juvenile bragging.

I had a conversation over the weekend with a guy who's buddies with a lot of SW actors from the convention circuits. He and Diamond had gone out for drinks and never once did Diamond mention the fact that he was the one who created the lightsaber fighting in the OT.

 

I do agree that the SCA is a good source for learning how to fight with various types of weapons, as you say. And while describing them as being like baseball bats is a little extreme - rattan is quite a bit kinder than a Louisville Slugger - there's no way I'd go up against that without Plenty Of Armor.

I would point out, though, that Hayden Christensen was advised to take fencing before reporting to Australia. And Nick Gillard did go to kendo and fencing schools for his arena extras.

Now - back to agreeing with you. Lightsaber combat is more complex than fencing, more complex than kendo, (and, truth be told, probably more complex than SCA fighting,) all due to the unique nature of the blade.

As a practical matter, I'm only concerned with lightsaber fighting as it applies to a staged fight. And, in martial arts of all styles (unarmed and armed, Eastern and Western) the effective moves are rarely flashy, and the flashy moves are rarely effective.

If you're looking to learn the sword, heck - just pick one that looks fun for you, it's as simple as that. (Fencing CAN be a source of scholarships, but that's a different issue.) Fencing, kendo, SCA will all certainly be good for getting into shape. But its not really something to get into for self defense. You'd be about 300-400 years too late for that. Find a martial arts school you like, and take a handgun safety/instruction course.

My two cents.

 

Okay. To clarify something: Lightsaber duels are something called stage or theatrical combat. Movie fights aren't reflective of real fighting. If they were, movies would be really boring.

Yes, Nick Gillard did take from a good many styles in creating the "Jedi style" for the PT, including tennis, kendo (noticable in the foundation of Lord Maul's style), and other martial disciplines. But ultimately, it was all scripted anyway. No one "style" won out over the other - that's just the way it was written.

On April 27, 2001, Mr. Gillard was asked the question: "What styles of martial arts lend themselves best to Jedi-style combat? Are the individual fighting styles of new characters made up or are there 'canon' issues to consider?"

His answer was this: "Most martial arts are too strict -- gymnastics lend themselves more to Jedi-style combat. There is always enough information in the script to write a fighting style that fits the character perfectly."

So in all reality, as long as you can follow the instructions from your fight director, and have a certain level of physical capablity and flexibility, you can learn to use a lightsaber for stage combat purposes.

From my personal experience, it is actually easier to teach someone who has no prior combat experience but is willing to learn than it is someone who's been through combat training. Why? Because they have not prior conditioning.

Martial arts teach you one aim of combat: self-defense. The SCA teaches you another aim of combat: to achieve victory through the use of arms. Stage combat has nothing to do with either. Stage combat is about dragging the fight on and still making it look good.

Those are my two dactaries. I hope I didn't offend anyone by spending them.

EDIT: Wow. I'm sharing a discussion on lightsaber combat with Plurimus!

 

Nice dactaries there, PJ...

 

Padawan John and Smiling Otter, it's nice to see that someone else has heard of the SCA besides me. As for the description of our weapons being similar to baseball bats, I know that rattan is quite different. But I've found it's the closest thing that the general public can understand. But Smiling, have you ever gotten hit by a 25 year knight on a place where you only wore minimal armor? In cases like that, I'd prefer to be hit by a baseball bat because the larger diameter means greater surface area and dispersal of force.

John - I do understand that lightsaber combat is staged. However, the moves and techniques used are real. To be able to perform them well, does take something more than just a complete newbie. I've been working on choreographing a fight for my fan film and. One of the people I've been using has no experience. Any newbie can figure out the basic moves on their own but it takes instruction to get past that. And then there's also the idea of movement which is essential for a good staged fight. They're no fun if two peolpe just stand there and swing. My friend with no experience is having a great deal of trouble with this and tends to move like most people who haven't had weapons training in which they try to walk normally which doesn't work because it takes your body out of position for making smooth and natural attacks.

My second friend has had a few years of fencing. She understands the movement a bit better but I've still had to teach her how to use two hands and move in other fashions than straight lines.

My last actor is one of my friends involved with the SCA and I've had no trouble with him.

And just to counter what you said about lightsaber combat not having anything to do with victory through use of arms, I'll quote our good friend Nick Gilliard again: "it's like a game of chess played at a thousand miles an hour and every move is check". This is most representative of how I look at choreographing a fight. A choreographed fight is just like a real fight except that it moves 100x as fast and every block is made, with a few moves tossed in where applicable to look good for the camera.

As for what you quoted about the gymnastics, I agree with that but believe that learning basic moves comes first and that's why you should find someplace to learn those.

Now back to Smilings comment about lightsaber combat being more complex that anything else, I agree, but SCA combat is the closest we can hope to achieve. As soon as I see someone without SCA training pull off the complex tricks we do with their bokan, I'll gladly recommend their form as matching the SCA in sword technique. (Side note: I will readily admit that I don't do well against people who've had martial art training if neither of us have weapons. But that's not really the point since we're talking about lightsabers here >.~)

And those are my terradactyls.

EDIT: Um, I don't hang out on the Costuming and Props board usually and the only reason I found this thread was a link from the Fan Film board. Why's Plurimus so big?

 

This is the most fun I've had posting in . . . well, ever!

I agree with you, VoijaRisa, that a total newbie to sword fighting has a certain "stiffness" to them. This is reflected in a lot of the Highlander TV series episodes. A good portion of the guest actors (about 80-90%, if I remember correctly) had never even held a sword before they signed on. Then, sometimes they had as little as four hours to learn their moves. On the most part, they did a wonderful job, but every now and then, you can see someone who still doesn't quite get it.

I've actually found a gymnast who's willing to try to get the hang of the lightsaber art . . . I'll keep you posted on how she does.

Check out Plurimus' sig and you discover that he's the author of Shimmering Sword: Samurai, Western & Star Wars Sword Fighting. He has more experience and expertise in his left foot than most of us have combined. In my opinion, that is.

 

Once again, I'll disagree with you on the martial arts point. I've trained in unarmed arts such as taekwondo, jujitsu, and sambo for years. However I've also balanced it with training in martials arts such as Kendo and Bong Sool...

I would just like to know how exactly Kendo and Bong Sool are unarmed martial arts? Last I checked, Kendo deals exclusively with traditional Japanese sword-fighting, and Bong Sool deals exclusively with refining fighting techniques using staffs, sticks, and whatever handy weapons are around. Just to set the record straight.

I like your point about SCA competitions... I sure wouldn't want to contest a man baring a 24lb broadsword with my 6lb katana!!! That old adage about size not mattering in martial arts just isn't so... given equivalent speed and technique, brute force wins.

 

Umm, JediG60racer, I'm a little confused by your post. I had always been led to believe that "unarmed" martial arts were those that dealt primarily with hand-to-hand combat, such as taekwondo and jujitsu. This would lead me to understand "armed" martial arts are those that primarily employ weapons - including kendo and fencing. But maybe I've just misunderstood.

And as far as the weight of weapons goes: my katana weighs in at about 4.5 pounds. My friend's broadsword weighs in at no more than 8. I admit that modern steels are much lighter than those used in more traditional eras, but I am more than able to deflect his blows with my own blade - a technique that I'm not overly fond of, as it chips both blades.

Speed x Mass = Force.

Strength isn't a question necessarily. For instance, take my measurements on the swords above. If I can swing that 4.5 pound katana at 20mph (equalling 90) and my friend can only swing his broadsword at 10mph (equalling 80) then I've got his sorry butt whooped six ways from Sunday. If those two blows meet, I've overpowered him by 10 - and gained the upper hand. My momentum carries me forward, while he is pushed back, meaning that he has to overcome a certain degree of negative acceleration in order to resume his attack. Again, I have the upper hand.

Ain't physics fun?

 

When I was taught who to fight with a Samurai sword (I only have a little experience) I was taught 3 main positions. One was with the sword in front of yourself (defensive), another to hold the sword parallel to your body and to the side, and the third was above you head (an attack position, like Anakin uses when battling Dooku).

 

According to this site, those postures that you mentioned are Chudan ("middle guard"), Hasso ("shoulder stance") and Jodan ("upper guard") - though feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

I just finished watching Episode II, and I'm going to spend a couple of days analyzing all the various Jedi techniques in this and Episode I. (I love my DVD-ROM!) I'll probably present my own perspective on things here in a day or two . . . unless ya'll think that should be its own thread elsewhere?

EDIT: What I meant by "I love my DVD-ROM" is that I can shrink the window that the movie is playing and type my notes while I watch. Yes, technology is truly a wonderful thing!

 

John, I like your physics approach, but your equation is wrong. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Speed and Acceleration are definately not the same thing. Speed is measured in m/sec while Accel is m/sec^2. So I don't quite see where your analysis is going. Maybe it's because it's 1:00 in the morning and I just finished 4 hours of Calc homework. Who knows. I don't have all my physics formulas with me right now otherwise I'd find a better formula, but I'll say this: regardless of the masses of the weapons, an equal amount of force will have to be exerted to stop attacks of equal force. If your blocking with a light weapon, it will be moving faster than with a more massive weapon, but the kinetic energy it carries is the same.

As for a 24 pound broad sword... oh dear god is that wrong. NEVER has anyone made a 24 broad sword! In fact a midieval "war sword" (average length 38" for blade, 7" handle, making it comperable to a lightsaber) weighted 4.5 - 5 pounds (Source: A Knight and his Weapons 2nd Edition (c) 1997, Ewart Oakeshot). And as for not taking on a great sword with a short sword, if you're afraid to do that, then I question your competence with a weapon. I've taken on greatsword with dagger and won. The question isn't one of the masses of weapon, it's one of forces and range. With such a short weapon, I will most likely have to block 2-3 attacks before I will be in range. But to do that, I just have to meet his weapon with a force opposite his each time. However, I would like to point out that my argument against the martial arts was directed to the unarmed ones. While reading earlier posts I saw quite a few people saying to take Karate, Tai Chi, and other unarmed forms and that is why I presented my argument for the SCA. However, I still believe that the SCA is better than any martial art form because many people in the SCA have also learned the martial arts forms and in the SCA, there's not one instructor. Everyone learns from everyone else. Knowledge gets passed around and without knowing it, a fighter will learn many different forms all at once.

A question was also raised earlier about Anakin holding the sword over his head. Someone mentioned that they had never seen this move before and it seemed foolish. I have seen this move before. It happens to be a favorite of Sir Ferdinand (Sir indicates knight, highest level of fighter in SCA). Its aim is to make your opponent think you're vunerable. However the trick to it is that very quick, heavy-handed attacks can come out of it. It is employed mostly by those who know their weapon very well and can tell the instant an enemy is in their range. At that point they come with a strong attack that will force the defender to do something other than attack. Just to clarify that.

Oh, and John, I find it works better to type up notes on my laptop as I watch the movie >.~ Technology iswonderful.

 

John, I like your physics approach, but your equation is wrong. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Speed and Acceleration are definately not the same thing. Speed is measured in m/sec while Accel is m/sec^2. So I don't quite see where your analysis is going. Maybe it's because it's 1:00 in the morning and I just finished 4 hours of Calc homework. Who knows. I don't have all my physics formulas with me right now otherwise I'd find a better formula, but I'll say this: regardless of the masses of the weapons, an equal amount of force will have to be exerted to stop attacks of equal force. If your blocking with a light weapon, it will be moving faster than with a more massive weapon, but the kinetic energy it carries is the same.

As for a 24 pound broad sword... oh dear god is that wrong. NEVER has anyone made a 24 broad sword! In fact a midieval "war sword" (average length 38" for blade, 7" handle, making it comperable to a lightsaber) weighted 4.5 - 5 pounds (Source: A Knight and his Weapons 2nd Edition (c) 1997, Ewart Oakeshot). And as for not taking on a great sword with a short sword, if you're afraid to do that, then I question your competence with a weapon. I've taken on greatsword with dagger and won. The question isn't one of the masses of weapon, it's one of forces and range. With such a short weapon, I will most likely have to block 2-3 attacks before I will be in range. But to do that, I just have to meet his weapon with a force opposite his each time. However, I would like to point out that my argument against the martial arts was directed to the unarmed ones. While reading earlier posts I saw quite a few people saying to take Karate, Tai Chi, and other unarmed forms and that is why I presented my argument for the SCA. However, I still believe that the SCA is better than any martial art form because many people in the SCA have also learned the martial arts forms and in the SCA, there's not one instructor. Everyone learns from everyone else. Knowledge gets passed around and without knowing it, a fighter will learn many different forms all at once.

A question was also raised earlier about Anakin holding the sword over his head. Someone mentioned that they had never seen this move before and it seemed foolish. I have seen this move before. It happens to be a favorite of Sir Ferdinand (Sir indicates knight, highest level of fighter in SCA). Its aim is to make your opponent think you're vunerable. However the trick to it is that very quick, heavy-handed attacks can come out of it. It is employed mostly by those who know their weapon very well and can tell the instant an enemy is in their range. At that point they come with a strong attack that will force the defender to do something other than attack. Just to clarify that.

Oh, and John, I find it works better to type up notes on my laptop as I watch the movie >.~ Technology iswonderful.

 

^Sorry for the double post. For some reason I got an error message the first time I posted and hit post again.

 

Has anyone mentioned yet that none of this is actually real, and that this is all essentially acting and as made up as the CG Yoda. Even you SCA guys know that combat is quick and over fairly soon. Every heavy weapons demo I've ever seen was over in a matter of a couple of minutes. Which would not make good cinema. As far as what style is the best...it's whatever you like. No one sword fights for survival anymore.

Mike C.

 

Well, I admit that I probably misapplied the physics approach. It's been a long time since I've been in that class, but I do recall one of my sensei trying to explain something similar. It was kind of late when I wrote that. But thanks for correcting me.



Yes, Mike C., I believe we all understand that none of this is real. However, adding an air of reality to a staged fight makes it more dramatic. "How so?" you ask. I'll tell ya.

Two people shuffling around in a circle while banging their swords or stick together is rather . . . dull. Boring. Blah. Who wants to watch that for three to five minutes? Not me, I'm sure. And not many people who watch films, either.

In staged combat (since that is what this is supposed to be a discussion of), the object is to make the fight look as real and fast and dangerous as possible while keeping all the participants free from injury. This is no easy task. If I remember correctly, Nick Gillard recieved a couple of broken fingers just in training the actors for Episode II. When a fight is done full-out for the camera, bad things can and will happen. But I digress.

So in order to remain safe, but still look good on camera or stage, entertain the audience, and have that air or authenticity to the fight takes a lot of study and preparation. I believe that is basically what we're talking about here.

 

Cyran, If you saw an SCA heavy weapons demo that lasted a few minutes that lasted a few minutes, consider yourself lucky. One of my longest, most exhausting fights that I can remember seemed like it lasted for a good 2 minutes but my friend video taped it and it ended up being 42 seconds. So you're right that SCA combat isn't a choreographed fight. Buy I never said that it was. However, the moves used in a real fight translate to a choreographed one.

Cyran, If you saw an SCA heavy weapons demo that lasted a few minutes that lasted a few minutes, consider yourself lucky. One of my longest, most exhausting fights that I can remember seemed like it lasted for a good 2 minutes but my friend video taped it and it ended up being 42 seconds. So you're right that SCA combat isn't a choreographed fight. Buy I never said that it was.

I'll restate what I said earlier: Basically I look at a good choreographed sword fight as one that is completely real in every aspect, just faster with every block successfully made and a few fancy tricks tossed in. Two people that have never learned to sword fight could coreograph a swordfight, but it would be boring. Most often they'll try to duplicate something they see in a movie and do it wrong. If they try to do it based on a repertoir of moves anyone can figure out, well, there's not much they can do, and newbies don't know how to move correctly. The point of this discussion is where to learn to pick up the techniques to make a good choreographed swordfight. I have sufficient skills now that I can almost match what we saw in Episode I (minus the flips).

 

Hey guys

I was wondering

I want to learn how to Sword fight any style
I will learn a little at martial arts next year ( Im brown belt )

But i want to take it further my High school teaches fencing but I Think they only do it for fun I want a sword fighting style that is a little strict and for sport mainly any suggestion?

 

Hey Youagain,
Like I've said before, the SCA is an awesome group to get with. The initial investment is somewhat high since you have to build/buy your armor. However, most groups have some extra that they will allow newbies to use until they can get their own. My suit cost somewhere around $300 and I spread it over the course of almost a year so it wasn't really that much. However, I was able to arrange getting a custom made helmet very cheap and it's not always possible to do so. Helmets alone can cost $300 if not more. Depends on what you want.

As far as strictness goes, there's the rules. No hitting one inch above the knee or below, and same with the wrists. Everything else is a legal target. All blows must be made with a sufficent amount of force which new persons are calibrated to. Thrusts are legal only if the weapon has a foam tip on it. Thrusts to the face should not be full force and are touch kills. Weapons will have blades marked and if contact is not made on a blade, the blow does not count. other than that, whatever you can do to get someone is legal.

Training is very informal and usually everyone will offer you advice at once. Plus fighting isn't the only part of the group. If you choose to get into other things, there's much more to do. But if all you really want to do is fight, there's wars held several times a year aroud the country. The largest is Pennsic (held annually in Pennselvania) in which as many as 1,200 fighters participate.

 

Is their an age restriction?

 

I respectfully disagree.

I think that learning some basic fencing would help you out a lot. It should condition you to moving around with a weapon in your hand, and to be observant of openings in your opponent's defensive tactics.

Yes, I realize that the SCA would teach you this as well, but I believe that some formal, structured training at the very outset is beneficial to anyone and everyone who picks up a blade - be it a foil, a rattan, or a lightsaber prop.

Now, as far as my notes on Episode II go - they are going to take a long time for me to finish. There is so much going on in the background, so many actual swordsmen being used there, that I find it difficult to concentrate.

Back to the concept of stage combat, there is an excellent tutorial (in addition to the one found in the FanFilmss tutorial section) located here. It introduced a very simple stage/screen system, which I believe is based very much on fencing. The tutorial on TFN is more kendo-based, so whichever will work best for you, use it. Or if you can find a way to combine the two, even better!

 

For SCA combat in most kingdoms there is an age restriction of 16 and your legal guardian must sign waivers incase injury does occur. However, there are some regions where you cannont fight until you are 18.

Let me rephrase my comment about instruction in the SCA. Usually for the first month training is done with one person who will teach basic moves. Then you get feedback and after awhile you start fighting with everyone else. However, they'll still match your skill level most often and then tell you how they killed you and what you can do better next time.

 

John do u have your notes typed up do u think you could pm them to me?

 

I'm interpreting the Episode II Visual dictionary here, so bear with me.

Parries

Parry number 1.
Raise the lightsaber so that the blade is above your head, and parallel with the floor. (Protects the head)

Parry number 2.
Move the lightsaber to your right, so that it is out away from your body. Keep the blade pointed at the ceiling. (Protects right arm & side)

Parry number 3.
Move the lightsaber to your left, so that it is out away from your body. Once again, keep the blade pointed at the ceiling. (Protects left arm & side)

Parry number 4.
Swing the lightsaber blade around behind yourself, so that the blade is pointed at the floor, while the handle stays up near your head. (Protects back)

Parry number 5.
Swing the lightsaber so that the blade is pointed down toward your right foot. (Protects right leg)

Parry number 6.
Finally, swing the lightsaber so that the blade is pointed down toward your left foot. (Protects left leg)

Attacks

For Attack number 1, bring your lightsaber up over your head, and then bring it down like you're going to hit someone in front of you in the head.

Swing your lightsaber so that you would hit your opponent's right arm or side. Keep the blade parrallel to the floor as you swing. That is Attack number 2.

Swing your lightsaber so that you would hit your opponent's left arm or side, again keeping the blade parrallel to the floor. This is Attack number 3.

For Attack number 5, swing your lightsaber in a sweeping motion so that the blade is pointed at the ground and away from you, as if you were going to hit your opponent's right leg.

Finally, for Attack number 6, swing your lightsaber in a sweeping motion so that the blade is pointed at the ground and away from you, as if you were going to hit your opponent's left leg.



Combine this with a basic knowledge of how your body moves and the notes I posted earler regarding the "official" Jedi style.

EDIT: I should learn to finish my thoughts! I'll be trying to use this "official" terminology throughout my notes - if they're ever truly finished.

Two more dactaries . . . wow, I hope payday comes soon!

Is it just me, or do I seem to EDIT a lot?

 

thanks alot