Discussion in 'Literature' started by Ghost, Sep 19, 2017.
Which 9-book series do you prefer, and why?
I think both had serious flaws, but I'd have to go with LotF for Jacen's fall. It was really tragic that such a hero fell. Was hoping for more information on his Sojourn in FotJ, but unfortunately there wasn't as much as I hoped. Abeloth and the Celestial concept were interesting, but I'm rather interested in Jacen's arc hence my choice of Lotf.
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I loved Legacy of the Force. Utter and epic tragedy.
Jacen Solo follows the example of his grandfather and instead of dying young as a hero like his brother, he lives long enough to see himself become a villain. And an unrepentant one at that.
Darth Caedus was a sad, pathetic excuse for a villain whose one real accomplishment was to shatter the Jedi Order's reputation and ruin Luke Skywalker's perfect domestic life.
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LotF had its flaws which I think I've talked about before (i.e. Solo vs. Skywalker families) but I did enjoy it.
I just wish Daala hadn't been made Chief of State at the end and we had an actual conclusion to the Second Corellian Insurrection/Second Galactic Civil War/GA-Confederation War.
FotJ was flawed from the beginning. Without the Lost Tribe, it could've been a three book series instead (maybe without Denning's input - Aaron Allston and Christie Golden could've carried it on its own).
The LOTF series had the better overall books imo.
Only read the FOTJ books once. Really want to do a read through again though.
Both series have potential but need to be reworked from the ground up.
For all its flaws, it still has to be LOTF by a landslide. FOTJ was just that bad.
LOTF has a greater stylistic whiplash between the styles of the authors, but has the greater highs to accompany its lows. Also, while FOTJ felt more focused, I just preferred the mythos-handling in LOTF over Abeloth in FOTJ.
Both are awful, but overall I'd rank LotF as maybe a 3/10 while FotJ was a 1/10 (or negative numbers if we could). LotF had plenty of flaws, stupid storyline and all the authors had their pet characters, but at least things moved along. What little plot they started out with (rip off the prequel storyline with Jacen as the star) deteriorated quickly, but FotJ didn't even have that much plot going for it. Seriously, how long did the Jedi (aside from Luke and Ben) sit around in the Coruscant Temple- and those few times when Jaina left, she went right back there quickly. And while LotF ended with the mind-melting awful conclusion of Daala as Chief of State (someone who makes Borsk look like a saint), FotJ was built on that idea, so of course it started out even further behind than LotF.
DNT was... mediocre, but at least there was still the uncharacteristically good finale of TUF to keep the momentum going for a bit. FotJ didn't even have that.
The whole Lumiya saying Vergere was a Sith and that she wanted Jacen to be Sith and Jacen going along with it, knowing that it would hurt Luke and that the good guys handing Daala the COS position still don't make sense to me. Mara's death as well. Hated that they dragged out the who killed Mara, who will Jacen kill plot lines, etc. Get on with it!
The Anakin, Ben and Luke scene in FOTJ was heart-warming as was the Han, Leia and Tahiri scene later on. Much better than what they did with her character in LOTF.
Alema in LOTF was my favorite character. Honorable mention to Lon Shevu and Jori Lekauf.
Raynar in FOTJ was my favorite character.
I really want to know more about Abeloth's previous escapes.
The Slave rebellions would have made for some good Wraith Squadron books.
FOTJ had a few decent moments. Darth Krayt's entrance at the Lake of Apparitions was pretty epic.
Luke turned to find the form of a shadow-wrapped human approaching from the shore by which Luke had entered the water, the same shore by which all mortals came to the Lake of Apparitions. The silhouette was tall and broad-shouldered, with a head hooded in darkness and glowing eyes that never seemed to match colors, that went from brown to orange and yellow to blue, that sometimes grew dark as ebony and seemed to be not there at all. As the silhouette drew nearer, it began to resemble a man Luke had seen many years before, a man who had appeared only in his dreams—and always shortly before he awoke feeling uneasy and frightened.
Luke glanced back at Mara, then said, “It’s him.”
It's pretty cool because in that moment the reader realizes that the visions Luke was having in LOTF were actually about Darth Krayt and not Caedus. Caedus actually delayed the emergence of Krayt and the One Sith.
On average I'd say they're both about the same amount of mediocre, sprinkled with an equal amount of suck and awesome, but overall just meh.
It's like a sine wave; on the one hand ****in' Wedge is old and doing things in LOTF and Luke and Ben are more or less bonding in FOTJ, but then Revelation exists and so does that slapping scene in Ascension or whatever book that was in. And then most of the rest of the stuff in between is just plain unspectacularly neutral.
Honestly I could wall-of-text this but it's only gonna end in misery and regret. Ima go wash the taste of these series out with some, well, anything else.
I've written countless treatises on these forums about how bad Fate of the Jedi was...
... but it's probably been a couple years since the last one, so I'm gonna do it again!
The thing about FOTJ is that it wasn't just bad. It was insultingly bad. I felt insulted as a reader with each installment, and I wish I had had the self-respect to give up halfway through. They planned two or three books' worth of content and then stretched it out over nine simply for the sake of doing a nine-book series. Each book was a $25 hardcover that barely had enough meat in it to fill a $2.99 comic issue. The days of a series' hardcovers being its high-stakes standouts were gone, and we were suddenly dishing out way too much money for complete and utter crap.
Here's how I imagine the FOTJ planning sessions went: "Luke and Ben go on an Odyssey. And the other characters... ehhh we'll figure that out later." But the thing is, they never actually figured any of that out. Han and Leia had prominent roles in every book, taking up about a third of the narrative, without actually doing anything. They pointlessly meandered around Coruscant without a solid plotline to call their own. The first five books featured copy-and-paste "chase a mad Jedi down" scenes without any actual progress to the story arc. Books three and four had identical Mandalorian attacks on the Jedi Temple. Tahiri's trial took three whole books just to select a lawyer. Jaina did nothing but cuddle with Jag for most of the first seven books.
And even Luke and Ben's adventure was poorly planned --- the first two books saw them visit the Baran Do Sages and the Aing-Tii monks and accomplish absolutely nothing. They didn't learn anything about Jacen until they hung out with his ghost in Book Three. And the first book was written before the villains had been fully developed, leaving Outcast's primary villain as... a giant spider? It was an awful book that did absolutely nothing to draw the reader into the series, doing everything wrong that Betrayal had done right.
Supremely talented authors like Allston and Denning (fight me) weren't given enough of a framework and were hampered by the lack of a real plotline. They couldn't possibly have spun that crap into gold, and even Allston wrote three truly terrible books that are a huge blotch on his otherwise stellar Star Wars record. And Golden... the less said about her books the better.
FOTJ was a poorly planned series that was severely rushed into production. About halfway through they realized that there wasn't enough meat in their sandwich and they shoehorned in an awkward subplot about slavery. I feel partially responsible for that one --- I was one of the loudest voices on the sw.com forums opining that there wasn't enough substance to the books, and Sue Rostoni responded by saying "We're going to come up with a new subplot at our next meeting." A better solution would have been to, ya know, plan more than a threadbare story right from the beginning.
Abeloth was an idea with a lot of potential, but by the end they realized they had nowhere to go with it and instead just lazily piggybacked it onto some episodes of The Clone Wars. And Troy Denning demonstrated contempt for continuity by constantly trying to undermine Legacy and treating it as a "possible future."
It was a lazily-planned, poorly-written, absolute trainwreck of a book series, and when Disney bought Lucasfilm the death of the EU ended up being, appropriately enough, a mercy kill.
I thought Outcast was a pretty fun little book on it's own. Luke and Ben coming into contact with an interesting new Force-using order, Han/Leia/Lando going on a fun adventure at Kessel with cameos from all your favourite EU pilots.
Of course the issue being that the book wasn't on it's own and was supposed to start a series. Whoops.
I quite enjoy Denning's books in the series for what they are, and Allston's are ok too. Fun reads despite being a stupidly plotted series.
Do you prefer a kick to the head or a punch to the stomach?
For someone who likes Anakin's PT arc, is Jacen's fall well done?
Er... Jacen's fall?
No, no, absolutely not and I'm nowhere near a fan of the character. Betrayal basically took Jacen Solo, ate him, crapped out a big turd, which somehow assumed sentience and shape-shifted into a stunningly convicing facsimile.
Let's say this- Jacen's fall makes Anakin Skywalker's fall look much better. And this was before TCW added more character development to him. His grandfather Anakin looks like a genius next to Jacen. I feel a little bit sorry for Anakin (Palpatine was a great manipulator). Jacen, not so much (especially after NJO, then he got a bit better by TUF, then DNT ruined his character again).
One of the weirder things was that the comedy of Jacen's fall (it was far too stupid for me to call it a tragedy) was mostly done by the end of LotF. Then FotJ retconned it into something else, and worse yet, seems to justify it as preventing something worse. So that's a great moral lesson- the darkside isn't that bad, the ends do justify the means. Not to mention having to intrude into the Legacy comic's territory due to lack of imagination and substance.
The only good thing in FotJ is Vestra.
LotF is flawed with a crazy ending (Daala as head ofthe galaxy? Why did you reintroduce Fyor Rodan if you did nothing with him!?) But it is still leagues better then the train wreck that was FotJ. LotF feel apart at book 8, FotJ feel apart at book 6 (though it started at book 3 honestly)
so inclusion. LotF.
Vestara is fun - and my OTP for Ben - but LotF has at least the kernel for a good story.
Why did no one tag me?
Jedi Ben! I feel let down.
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I was busy reading Transformers: More Than Meets The Eye trades - 3 down, 2 to go.
I meant to tag you at the end of my post about Krayt's delayed emergence and the Man on the Throne of Balance. It was late in the evening .
Either is merciful compared to these two series...
But if I really must pick then it must be LOTF on continuity/storytelling grounds - they had the conviction to plow through no matter what.
Betrayal: "Jacen's gonna be a SITH!"
Bloodlines: "Jacen's BAD and CONFLICTED + Mandalorians!"
Tempest: "Jacen is a SITH - and let's throw in another civil war!"
Exile: "Please see book 1 - oh, and the civil war's still on!"
Sacrifice: "No jokes now, kids - Jacen really is a SITH! Don't forget the civil war, death, violence and Mandalorians!"
Inferno: "Jacen's really evil now, and everyone else is beginning to realise it, but not quite."
Fury: "More evil Jacen, did I mention he's SITH? And the war's really heating up now!"
Revelation: "Lot's of evil stuff by Jacen, with Mandos (see books 1-7)"
Invincible: "Evil Jacen. Oh wait, time to wrap it up - Jacen dies, death, violence and some implausible stuff."
Now, that's fairly consistent to me - just not in any useful way. I did appreciate some of the political characters, however. Cha Niathal wasn't a disaster, for example.
FOTJ had no idea what it was doing. All over the place. Not a good series to bow out on. They learned their creative writing lessons well, however - "If the plot is entirely broken, abandon it and start again!" The problem is this happens about 4 times until Book 6. At least it tried to resolve some of the Force's mythological aspects, but with very limited success.
Shame because I will stick by my guns and say that the writers involved have written really decent work elsewhere (within SW too)
There is no question about this. LOTF is a solid concept with some good books and a pretty weak final third. FOTJ is rubbish. There are only two FOTJ books that are even worth reading for their entertainment value and that is Abyss and Apocalypse. I literally could not tell you what happens in books six, seven, or eight of that series. Basically every other book they reboot whatever the over-arching plot thread was supposed to be and by the time you get to the end you just want it to stop. Not only did FOTJ ruin what was left of the post NJO but it also retconned Legacy into just a possible future and did it's best to make you hate Jaina, Jag, and Ben the only three surviving characters of that generation that you actually liked.
Random Question: Did Tenal Ka die in LOTF? I'm trying to remember what happened to her and for the life of me I cannot.
FOTJ was the final ruinazition of decades worth of storytelling. And I will pay someone 100 million dollars if they can tell me why the series is called "Fate of the Jedi." This has flummoxed me for years.
I can't really say. Both have serious flaws, as everyone else has said, but I like aspects of both. I love the Mandalorian stuff in LOTF (don't @ me), and the overall quality of the books, I feel, was better. In FOTJ, I really love Luke and Ben's relationship, and I enjoy the first four books (after which the quality takes a dip) and the Lost Tribe were a fun addition to the universe. So...it's hard to say which is better or worse. I like parts of both, dislike parts of both.