Lit Legacy of the Force or Fate of the Jedi?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Ghost, Sep 19, 2017.

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LOTF or FOTJ?

LOTF 26 vote(s) 86.7%
FOTJ 4 vote(s) 13.3%
  1. Darth Droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2013
    star 1
    I hated the Lost Tribe. It completely destroyed the idea of "less if more" when it comes to Sith characters and it makes The One Sith less impactful and makes Caedus less impactful and essentially ruins the storytelling when there's just an entire planet of sith sitting there for all these years.

    LOTF is a good idea with a mediocre result. FOTJ is just all around bad ideas.
    Nobody145 and Ghost like this.
  2. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 7
    For myself, not reading NJO wouldn't have solved my dislike of the Civil War 2.0 plot but would have probably helped greatly on the Jacen plot in Betrayal. Nonetheless, not reading NJO does seem to play a role in determining enjoyment or lack of on LOTF / FOTJ.

    Aside from this, it was quite fitting in a way: NJO torched the Bantam EU, LOTF torched the NJO and was in turn burnt by FOTJ.
    Nobody145 and Gamiel like this.
  3. Trip Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    you've been saying this for over a decade now and I still don't get it. Like, you couldn't be more wrong; the NJO and the Bantam years dovetail so well it's kind of amazing to go back and read Bantam all these years later and see how well everything lines up.

    see to me this is just another way in which LotF sucked-- none of this is Luke at all. Luke would lower his 'saber and let Jacen kill him in a (granted potentially futile) attempt to snap him out if it. I mean really even the whole Grand Master business is awful. "Hey guys I'm dictator of all the Jedi now so u gotta do what I say," said no version of Luke Skywalker ever.
    Last edited by Trip, Sep 22, 2017
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  4. Darth Droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2013
    star 1
    Luke Skywalker as Jedi Grand Master was just another way in which the post-NJO failed to use their well established characters to build a true Jedi Order. We had so many great Jedi characters at that point and most of them were wasted as time went on.
    Havac, Ulicus and Trip like this.
  5. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Luke did that because he knew he had attacked Vader in rage. The father he'd sworn to save because he felt good in him. Moreover, Palpatine wanted him to strike Vader down and striking down an unarmed foe is not the Jedi way.

    A Jedi destroying a Sith Lord in single combat is well within their mandate and morality. Obi-Wan was right to cut Maul in half on Naboo in the heat of battle. Same with his dismemberment of Vader and leaving him to burn.

    Darth Caedus was in the process of burning an entire planet to the dirt. Attacking cities and killing civilians with abandon.

    Should Luke confront this fallen Jedi and then just let himself be cut down? When he can fight and defeat the Sith Lord instead? Because Luke doesn't hate Jacen at that point in the war. Killing Caedus on the Anakin Solo would have ended the conflict and saved countless lives. Luke was right to want to finish him.

    As for the Grand Master stuff, your hyperbole notwithstanding, the Jedi have always had a leader that heads up their Order.

    Satele Shan and Yoda were also Grand Masters and were excellent Jedi. So was Luke. Officially taking on the mantle of leader that he'd always worn doesn't make him a dictator by any stretch.
    Daneira likes this.
  6. Force Smuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    I remember reading that a Vong Character might be seen during LOTF but nothing. What a pity.
    At least this Anakin Solo survives SBS fan-fic series I'm following has the Yuuzhan Vong appearing in the post NJO series stories. The story between the NJO AU and DNT had a chapter where several Jedi deal with the trauma of the war and a couple Yuuzhan Vong star. A plot line in the DNT AU is the Yuuzhan Vong against the Bothans when they aren't trying to help the Solo kids stop the Killiks.
    In one of the next side stories Ben and his friends want to modify Vong bio-technology to combat new Sith threats.
    In the LOTF AU, One of Anakin and Tahiri's kids have an arc on Zonama Sekot. An actual arc on Zonama Sekot!
    Anakin, Tahiri and Danni Quee are using Vong tech to fight the Sith on Coruscant.
  7. Nobody145 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 5
    Another strange thing is that, bad as it was, LotF at least kind of left things in a way that sort of fit with the Legacy comic background (Jagged suddenly becoming Imperial Head of State). Then FotJ undid that. So that kind of gives the Legacy comic background time to form, but also seems like a huge waste of time, going back and forth on that.

    But then FotJ's finale was really stupid in every way, with most of a planet full of Sith still out there (they couldn't be bothered to have the Jedi discover Kesh's location at least) not to mention Krayt showing his face, proving his existence, decades too early.

    John Jackson Miller produced quite a few good stories based on Kesh, but that's probably due to JJM being a great writer rather than FotJ. Of all things, its just depressing that after LotF, a planet full of Sith just has to be discovered. Might as well have another extra-galactic invasion start just so people can blame the Jedi again. Seems like the "fate" of the Jedi is to suffer and die for an ungrateful galaxy. Is it so wrong to let Luke, Han and Leia have a happy retirement? Then again, that only served as a precursor to what we have now.
    Last edited by Nobody145, Sep 22, 2017
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  8. Trip Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    fine he would've beaten Jacen down then and then thrown his 'saber away. whatever, the point still stands.

    okay? Luke isn't Obi-Wan, and Jacen isn't some random Sith lord, he's his nephew and his apprentice. the one thing that Luke and Anakin have most in common is that they are extremely loyal to people who matter most to them; Luke's entire arc in the OT revolves around him being unwilling and unable to kill the Sith Lord his masters tell him he must kill for the good of the galaxy because said Sith Lord is his father. And yeah he was a lot younger then but that's always been a pretty core part of his character.

    im not debating whether it's right or not, idgaf about that. what i'm saying is its totally out of character for Luke.

    no they haven't, thats something that was more or less invented by LotF and then retroactively applied to Jedi of other eras. It sucks and i hate it and LotF is largely (though by no means entirely) to blame.

    i can't comment on Satele but i mean Yoda's grand mastery was a huge contributing factor to the downfall of the order so...

    except he acted like a dictator? like way more than Yoda did, Yoda's title was largely an honorific and his leadership was only ever of the de facto variety and the council was free to ignore him, meanwhile Luke made Grandmaster an official position that apparently had to be filled when he wasn't around and was like going around unilaterally exiling Jedi to Dagobah and crap.
  9. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    No. It really doesn't. The situation where Luke lays down his weapon and refuses to fight in anger is a very specific one. The circumstances don't apply at all to the duel on the Anakin Solo. But I clearly won't be able to convince you of that, so let's just agree to disagree.
  10. Trip Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    no it's not? he didn't stop fighting and toss his 'saber away because he was like "oh no im angry and darksiding," he went into the confrontation without any intention of fighting in the first place. If he'd somehow been able to maintain his cool and not rage out on Vader he... wouldn't have been fighting Vader, because the entire reason he gave into dueling Vader was because he lost his cool!
    AusStig, Ulicus and CT-867-5309 like this.
  11. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    "Soon I'll be dead and you with me."

    Luke didn't intend to fight the Emperor because he knew the Alliance was planning to blow up the station they were both on. Note that when the Alliance fleet ambushed and is in danger of being destroyed, Luke snatches up his weapon and tries to kill Palpatine.
  12. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    LOTF had many problems and was in its own way a sign the franchise was going in a bad direction-the darker tone, ridiculously expanded violence, and grim atmosphere along with Denning's piloting of the ship(which was the direction of the aforementioned factors). At the same time it had way more creative and worldbuilding potential than FOTJ which botched what ideas it did have badly.

    LOTF could have been a masterful work of prose-family conflicts with galactic division and war, Jacen's choices and dilemmas, family angst, politics, love, sacrifice. If Stover and Luceno had been writing it with some good editing-it could have been a worthy successor to the NJO. Think about it-Jacen descends into darkness each step a wrestling moment of agony, Han and Leia supporting Corellia Han out of a latent patriotism or desire to be the rebel again, Leia out of support for her husband, you could have discussed issues such as terrorism, loyalty, and family. LOTF could have been a story with grey characters, villains making hard choices, and heroes in tears at what needed to be done, with schemers such as Krayt lurking in the background.

    In sum, LOTF's premise held so much potential and could have been amazing.

    FOTJ on the other hand had worse issues-it didn't develop its original ideas and was handled poorly. It could have been better but I think needed better writers, better editors, and quite frankly a better story.

    So LOTF is superior not so much for it was but what it could have been, FOTJ didn't have that potential and wasn't even as good as LOTF actually was.
    AusStig likes this.
  13. Noash_Retrac Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2006
    star 4
    I wonder if Troy Denning, Karen Traviss, James Luceno, Timothy Zahn, Michael A. Stackpole and Christie Golden frequent our forums.
  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Denning and Traviss used to - I don't know about the others.
  15. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2017
    star 2
    I doubt it. They'd probably make accounts like all the Trek authors do on the Star Trek BBS forums.
  16. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Traviss had an account under her own name:

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/mandoa-class-mandalorian-language.21531491/page-14#post-21637724

    and according to Wookieepedia, Denning posted under the name Tailone for a while:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Troy_Denning

    (Back when the search engine was easier to use - I looked it up - and people were certainly treating that poster as Denning, and they were certainly making references to books written as if they were Denning - so I concluded that they probably were Denning.)

    EDIT- Used Search engine again - I found a good example of such:

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...scussion-thread.5816786/page-27#post-23110149
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 23, 2017
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  17. Stymi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2002
    star 4
    They used to. But we were *******s and drove them off. [IMG]

    Sent from my Moto X-Wing
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  18. Pacified_llama Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2017
    star 2
    LOTF -> widely disliked premise.
    FOTJ -> generally lousy structure, poor plot progression - more of an example of how a series in general can go wrong.

    Everything became too linear "and then this happened, then this, then two years later this..." Alas, so much potential left untapped.
    Oddly, what kept me going was the characters - I had invested a lot in the characterization in the NJO and was determined to see it through to the bitter end. Whoops. o_O
  19. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    Even with LOTF's premise, I feel where it falls short the most is in the conclusion.

    Invincible was good writing, and Caedus was finally competent and sane again... but it would have been helped so much if...
    1. someone besides Daala was elected at the end, and it was stated to be an actual election not some treaty compromise
    2. if the Confederation remained a force until the end, and had a conclusion, even if it was just a peace treaty

    Those two things alone would have greatly increased the opinion of LOTF in so many people's eyes. Denning doesn't like conclusions, he's always thinking of setting up the next crisis, and leaving plot lines lingering and deciding later if he'll pick up on them or not.

    Other easy-to-see fixes:
    1. Don't make everyone go so quickly from "blindly believing nothing is wrong with Jacen" to "Jacen is the worst and must be killed"... especially for relatives like Luke/Han/Leia/Jaina/Ben/TenelKa (and if Luke still goes through his phase, have him come out of it by Invincible)
    2. Reveal Lumiya's deception, that Vergere WASN'T a Sith, either just before or just after Jacen kills Mara
    3. Build up Jacen and Mara's relationship before Jacen kills her
    4. Give Jacen a more believable way of becoming Chief of State, than "let's find a legal droid to insert a loophole"
    5. Don't name him "Darth Caedus"... that's an awful name
    6. Give Jacen one good reason to learn the Sith ways, and stick to it (none of this "to save Luke from being killed from his future self" nonsense... and while "to save Allana" is nice, it's too much of a ROTS-Anakin-Padme repeat... "the dark man" on the throne of balance, or a future possible child going dark, doesn't make sense either given his actions... just keep it simple to Jacen being willing to do what it takes to bring peace to the galaxy at large and prevent a vision of eternal war, even with the knowledge of the damage it may do to his own soul and potential Force afterlife)
    7. Keep Zekk alive, show that Jaina is able to make a choice with both guys presumed alive, and just marry her to Jag in Invincible
    8. Remember that Luke suffered a near-fatal injury from Vong poison in TUF, use that as a way to keep his weak and out of the story, more like OT Yoda but not "Grand Master"
    9. Give Jaina more to do throughout the series
    10. Keep Han and Leia mostly retired... none of this "Leia decides to help Han commit treason against the government she helped create, because it's his turn to decide what to do" nonsense (or Han's sudden Corellian patriotism springing from nowhere)... if anything, make them GA spies and double-agents into the Confederation
    11. Keep the conflict about the GA versus the Confederation... don't involve the Wookiees and Hapans and Mandalorians unless they're part of this conflict... and it would be cool for a decentralized Jedi (not led by Luke) to be divided between GA, Confederation, neutral/pacifist, and those few sensing some other dark presence that's the true enemy in this conflict... have Jacen be more deceptive so most Jedi don't sense his turn
    12. talk about Jacen's big-picture Vision... how exactly he feels he must fundamentally change the galaxy to keep it at peace, and not repeat the mistakes of Palpatine/Vader (but make his own)... relate it to his experience at the end of TUF with Force oneness, and reconcile that with what he's doing now
    13. have a conclusion where, even with Jacen defeated, like the end of a season of Legend of Korra, they realize he did have some good points but was just out of balance, and adopt the best of his suggested transformations (and show Jacen could have succeeded with his goals without going dark)

    Lastly, if they do the above, they could still get away with killing Jacen and it would feel more meaningful and less wasteful (especially with points 12 and 13)...but they also could have left him alive... maybe not redeem him yet, but leave the possibility open. Or if he dies, show that a cult of Force-users has developed around him, with the intention to resurrect him like Marka Ragnos. And if he dies, have Jaina seem less like a mindless killing machine or darksider as she kills him, it's her brother, make it personal and emotionally torturing to even have to fight him.


    I agree LOTF is still much, much better than FOTJ. My suggestions for that would be more like salvaging the little that did work and making an entirely new story with it. Luke and Ben going on an odyssey, and learn more about Jacen's fall, visiting different Force cultures, that's good. Them running into old characters to wrap up their storylines, like Callista and Akanah, that's good. Abeloth as an eldritch abomination is good (as long as it does NOT relate her to Mortis, or make her wanting to become yet another politician to rule the galaxy). If there's a planet of Lost Sith at all... keep them at medieval-level technologies, DON'T make them able to learn not only how to adapt to galactic civilization but how to act as spies and secret agents everywhere at every level... and make their arc end with the entire tribe being redeemed, and joining the Jedi, to defeat Abeloth (who is maybe some bioengineered Sithspawn created by their ancestors). Have the leader of the GA (not Daala, maybe it's Fyor Rodan elected at end of LOTF, after Cal Omas cheating to win his election over Rodan is exposed) keep anti-Jedi measures reasonable, and keep the Jedi active in the galaxy, helping the Anti-Slavery Rebellion and have that plotline there from the beginning, and how they win back the GA's trust while giving up GA sponsorship. Scrap the "mad Jedi" plotline, and the "Font of Power/Pool of Knowledge/Throne of Balance" stuff. Scrap a lot of the Lost Tribe stuff.
    Last edited by Ghost, Sep 23, 2017
  20. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
  21. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    I know, I voted in it.

    Still awful. People voted for it because it sounded like "Cade", which makes even less sense.
    Ulicus likes this.
  22. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4

    An ugly name for an ugly man. There was nothing great or grand about Jacen Solo's fall and deeds. The entire series is about how he's a cruel, selfish, petty man whose caught up in his own delusions of grandeur. There isn't anything good left in Jacen like there was with Anakin. Caedus died as an unrepentant Sith Lord, taking a single step towards the Light in the final seconds of his life that was utterly insufficient to achieve any kind of redemption.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  23. Ulicus Lapsed Moderator

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Yay, Star Wars.
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  24. mnjedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 2
    The best thing about LotF was entirely meta. Seeing Denning and Travis try to one up each other in their subsequent books was actually pretty interesting to read, if not indicative of the utter lack of planning that went into the series.

    Then it just gets sad and seems vindictive when in FotJ and Crucible you get to see Denning continue to one up all of Traviss concepts repeatedly even though she has stopped writing for SW entirely.
  25. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4

    I had the same thought when I first read LOTF as a teenager. But a decade later I see the series in a different light. It's lack of real redemption shows just how rare Anakin's return was. How the spark of good that dwelt within Darth Vader was something truly unique. Redemption isn't something that every Sith Lord and Fallen Jedi can achieve. Yoda's words were, for the most part, right. If you look at Jacen's story arc from start to finish, you can see the seeds for darkness in him at the very beginning.

    With anguish on his face, Jacen looked at his uncle. “I’m not sure being a Jedi Knight is my calling in life. I’d really prefer it if you gave me no assignment at all.”-Dark Tide I, Onslaught

    Jacen never wanted to be a Jedi Knight. He never truly embraced the values and beliefs of that organization. In this he was similar to his grandfather, who was not fully committed to the Jedi cause, albeit for very different reasons.

    "The Jedi are your family—"

    "No." Anakin turned on his former Master. "No, the Jedi are your family. The only one you've ever known. But I'm not like you—I had a mother who loved me—"

    And a wife who loves me,he thought.And soon a child who will love me, too.-Revenge of the Sith Novelization