Lit Legacy & TOR vs. the movies

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sable_Hart, Sep 20, 2013.

  1. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    After being ruthlessly pestered by some friends on another board, I read the first 50 issues of Legacy and the 6 issues of War.

    Here, The Old Republic seems universally (and rightly, in my opinion) derided for elements that seem to belittle those of the films. It seems to me having had read Legacy, the same accusation could be made of it. But I'm given to understand Legacy is much more popular around here.


    I mean no disrespect to the creative staff and fans of the series, but I am curious how a plot line very much recycled from the films earned such acclaim. Maybe I missed some nuance to the story.

    Obligatory Disclaimer: I know Legacy and the movies aren't identical. But I read in one of the Star Wars Insider magazines that Jan Duursema sought not to cheapen the accomplishments of the films wherein Luke destroys the Sith, defeats the Empire, and resuscitates the Jedi. Yet a lifetime later, the Sith are restored, the Empire is ascendant, and the Jedi are scattered...?

    Look forward to hearing some thoughts on the matter.
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  2. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Where did you get the idea that the Old Republic was looked down upon?

    It's extremely popular and well-regarded around here.
  3. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Really? Most of the posts I've read are pretty critical. But that may be confirmation bias at work; I don't exactly scour the site for TOR reviews. So I'll edit that part out of the OP.
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  4. Dr. Steve Brule Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 4
    I don't understand. Your complaint is that Legacy both recycles the plot of the movies and that it ignores it?
  5. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    No, my complaint is that Legacy recycles the plot of the movies but doesn't follow it literally on every level. I was merely preempting any poster who would point that out in its defense.
  6. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    You don't have to edit it out. Basically, the Old Republic period gets some criticism but it's mostly for the fact that there's very little tie-in media and the characters we know about are somewhat bland.

    I'll talk about Legacy more at length but I think that it was an attempt to do a "greatest hits" in the future like KOTOR was a greatest hits in the past.
  7. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter. I just found myself perplexed that though the goal was apparently to preserve the import of the films, Legacy seemed to (intentionally or otherwise) trample on them.
    ChildOfWinds likes this.
  8. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I'm not overly fond of SW Legacy for the reasons you say, but I try not to be too vocal in stating this because it's popular. I'm really tired of the Sith and Legacy doesn't do itself any favors in my eyes by relying on them as villains.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 20, 2013
  9. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Yeah, it makes me wonder if the comic's appeal owes to nostalgia rather than the strengths of its own merits.
  10. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Nostalgia? I suppose that brings to question why that nostalgia doesn't equally work for The Old Republic.
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Star Wars: Legacy is popular for a number of reasons. The first reason being the fact that it's something new. There's new protagonists, new ship designs, new geo-political landscapes, and new villains. It was founded in the time before the Lost Tribe of the Sith and the Old Republic made the Sith return a little overexposed. I think Darth Krayt's return would have significantly more impact if not for Darth Caedus also clouding up the issue from Betrayal onwards.

    The next is that it's written/drawn by well-beloved EU comic book authors. Ostrander and Durasama's work is highly regarded for a very good reason. Their work with Quinlan Vos, the Clone Wars, and other titles have helped establish their credibility so when they did something on their own--it was beautiful to look at and well-written.

    The original trilogy was a somewhat magical combination of elements: Rebels, Imperials, Gangsters, Rogues, Princesses, Gunslingers, Knights, Holy Knights, Evil Wizards, and comic relief robots. There's something for virtually everyone and a large part of the reason the Prequels weren't as popular (including bad writing) was that the universe seemed somewhat less complex and more focused on the Holy Knights plus Evil Wizards.

    Legacy offered a promise of a return to a wider universe where anything could happen as well as a critical look at the Messaniac view of the Skywalker family proposed by a lot of fans since the Prequels. I, myself, wanted to buy it solely for the chance to see Jedi vs. Sith action as well as a return of the "villainous" empire.

    If you're wondering about Legacy's high regard, look no further than the SOS thread. @Child of Winds has been quite vocal about her disgust that the Legacy issues restored the Empire to its former state of prominence, revived the Sith after Balance had been brought, and made Luke Skywalker's great-grandson a drug-user with no respect to his elder's accomplishments.

    Also, one of the MAJOR reasons Jaina Solo and Jag broke up for years was because a lot of fans hated the idea of her becoming Empress. They had difficulty separating the Empire of Pellaeon from Space Third Reich. Jaina becoming Empress seemed like a deliberate insult to Leia and Han, especially since Leia's homeworld was destroyed by the Empire.
  12. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    That can't be true... Jag and Jaina were "separated" in the DNT, long before Legacy came around. It was Legacy that actually got the authors to get Jag and Jaina back together in LOTF. Troy Denning has also admitted that he only split them up because he didn't want Jaina to be away from Coruscant and the Jedi.
  13. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    He also did not like Jag.
  14. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Just what I heard but some nasty conversations were had here. I, myself, never supported the Jaina as Empress thing because Leia is a champion of democracy.

    Even if the Empire is permitted to live, that's still so terribly WRONG on every conceivable level.
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  15. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    Its debatable how popular TOR is around here, though at least some people, such as myself have a hard time letting it slide.

    A least some of it is due to timeline placement. For instance, the classic stormtroopers and Star Destroyers in Legacy make sense as its a century after the OT. The Empire being ascendant again began in the NJO era, with the Imperial Remnant helping to win the Vong War and getting a lot of good PR for at. Another reason Legacy is well regarded is that it draws on the events of the NJO for he background history and is on average written decently at the very least, especially compared to the post-NJO novels. Also, while Darth Krayt is Emperor, its not like we see him in a cloak most of the time.

    Whereas in TOR, they blatantly ripped off the Star Destroyer designs and the Emperor's throne as well as plenty of other elements. Such as the Leviathan was originally a Republic ship, so it could count as a Stay Destroyer ancestor, but the Sith Empire ships are just lazy and are on the wrong side. Many of the Republic trooper designs are too close to clone troopers, which is a bit off as clone trooper armor was influenced by Mando design, which makes sense because of the clone army was created, but doesn't make as much sense in the TOR era, especially with the Mandos as an active faction (even if they're just Sith lackies again).

    Doesn't help that the Republic and Jedi are very close to the prequel versions. Again. Hearing the Jedi go on about how attachment is bad, blah, blah blah is never interesting. Yet the Sith Empire logo looks closer to the eventual Republic emblem then the actual Republic in this era. Compare that to the Republic and Confedercy symbols, similar yetvstill different. Bioware just adjusted the classic Rebel and Imperial symbols slightly. And then there's the Sith Moffs and Imperial uniforms.

    I could go on, but hard to type that much on an iPad, but basically part of what it comes down to is that Legacy's story had lots of development, spun out of NJO, and their ships look similar to the OT ships because they really are based in those ships, so they count as homages more.

    TOR just ripped off a lot of visual and story elements from other eras, but because its set before most other stories, it ends up being... Contradictory? Mismatched? Anachronistic? Something like that. Compared to KotOR, which also borrowed a lot from the OT but was different enough that it didn't feel as blatant. Doesn't help that TOR basically ran over KotOR I and II, such as Revan and the Exile's fates, which weren't even that well written. Doesn't help that TOR is somewhat a WoW clone, and while some of the class stories are entertaining, the overall plot isn't that interesting. While as an MMO they needed lots of armor designs, doesn't excuse all the borrowing from he Clone Wars for instance. Doesn't help that people wanted a KotOR III but instead got this.
    Last edited by Nobody145, Sep 20, 2013
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  16. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Roan Fel existed before Jag was Imperial Chief of State. SW Legacy more or less conceived of the idea, did it not? What other implication was there to draw from a Force sensitive Fel Emperor?
  17. KED12345 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2012
    star 4

    Is it "most" of the posts, or is it two or three people screaming at the top of the lungs their disdain for it? Big difference as you could imagine. Be careful when trying to gauge a consensus that you're not looking at those who "speak loudly and carry a big stick."

    However, I'm no TOR fan. I don't hate it, it's just not my cup of tea. I don't like what they did with Revan in particular.
    Last edited by KED12345, Sep 20, 2013
  18. _Catherine_ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Yeah not really a fan. I'd like Legacy more if it was set a few more centuries down the line. Afaik the only reason it was so close to the movie era was so a bunch of prequel characters could show up in it, which was another part of it that I did not like.
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  19. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Ultimately, there's what I call the Gatekeeper Effect where Star Wars fans have developed this kind of weird delusion they're the Force Spirit in the Jedi Holocron. They think there's some secret Jedi Wisdom or Truth in the Star Wars universe that they have to protect and if you go against it, you're somehow committing blasphemy. It sticks fans and producers both in a rock and a hard place.

    Take the above:

    1. The Sith Starships look like Star Destroyers.

    2. Reason: Because the Sith Empire is based on the Empire.

    3. Fans object because the Star destroyers are based on the Republic's star detsroyers.

    4. Rebuttal: Yet, the canon NOW says those are based on the Sith Empire. Why? Because 1# is official and fan opinion doesn't matter.

    5. Fans sulk and pout because their immersion is ruined.

    6. The less hardcore but FAR MORE NUMEROUS fans enjoy being an evil Imperial putting around in a Star Destroyer.

    I prefer being 6# personally but, at heart, the Star Wars universe will always be driven by what makes the stories most likely to sell. No one would care if Starkiller was the Apprentice of High Prophet Kadann.

    People care he's the apprentice of DARTH VADER.

    I, for one, am a tireless enemy of the Gatekeeper effect. We need to understand we are not the Guardians of the Holocron's knowledge.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 20, 2013
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  20. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    The problems that I have with TOR and with SW Legacy are actually distinct.

    For TOR, the problem I have is that it feels like it can't make up its mind what it is. If you look at Tales of the Jedi, they made an effort to have an art design which suggested it took place in the past of the films. In KOTOR and TOR, they just copy the aesthetic of the films, rather than projecting what the time period would look like. That alone isn't a bad choice, but since TOTJ already exists, it seems anachronistic and a valuation of branding as more important than consistency or continuity. That's the biggest problem I have with Bioware's efforts.

    For SW Legacy, I suppose I agree with the people that think it occurs too soon after the films. I understand the purpose for the time period, that it needs to be proximate to Luke for the whole legacy thing to have meaning, and I also understand that my argument is ultimately one of sentimentality and opinion. But reading Star Wars EU since the early 90s, I developed ideas of how it would go:
    [IMG]
    Seeing Luke's Jedi last about four generations before they failed their mandate to protect the Republic and were subsequently purged is not what I envisioned.

    Granted, a lot of these issues are issues of the Legacy era as a whole, i.e. Del Rey's contributions as well, but certainly the revival of this powerful Sith faction which grew under the noses of Luke and his Jedi isn't a positive development in comparison to Luke's Jedi becoming a fascimile of the prequel Jedi -- plus SW Legacy puts two of those prequel Jedi in prominent roles for the purged order.
  21. tjace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2008
    star 4
    Yeah, K'kruhk and T'ra S'aa really took a lot away from Legacy. I thought they were preachy and arrogant even in the Republic comics, and of all people to be leading the New Jedi Order, they are some of the worst possible choices.
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  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I like Master Krunchy but BOTH of them?
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  23. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    I like both actually. Decently developed PT characters, with their own unique backstories and elements. However, that doesn't mean I want o see them 100 + years later, leading the remnants of Luke's New Jedi Order! The hell is that?! If anything, we should've seen someone from NJO leading the Order, or someone related to it. If Del Rey didn't have an embargo on Wookiee Jedi appearing at the moment, Lowbacca showing up again would've been awesome. :cool:

    That being said I think Legacy was well received because of how different it was from the films. New designs, characters, and ideas. They made it clear it was all set in the same universe, but they didn't rely on what had happened before to carry them and shape their work.
    Robimus likes this.
  24. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    I'm not the biggest fan of Legacy either, I view most Cade issues as a waste of time, but unfortunately he's the main character. I also wish it had been set at least a few decades later, but the Vong War aftermath does play a role in that too, as well as in Krayt's backstory. Don't like that it involved Obi-wan like that either. Don't really like the idea of Jaina as Empress, but at least it ensures she won't die until she has a kid, based on the way the novels treat characters. And while I wish we could have seen a Horn or Durron, they have to avoid stepping into novel territory. And despite the relatively large amount of prequel comic Jedi, at least the comic NJO isn't a copy of the prequel Council, unlike the novels.

    Overall, Legacy does have some nice characters, new incarnations of of old favorites ( Rogue Squadron!), new things like a ruling triumvirate, and they did the army of red lightsabers first. Also like the ship designs a lot.

    TOR doesn't have that much nostalgia going for it, nor is it as well written as KotOR I, II or the KotOR comics.
  25. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    I find that most of the objections to TOR are over the visual designs - this consistent accusation that they stole from the movie designs too much. Never mind that KOTOR did this, though too a lesser degree and nobody cared or that for the purpose of appealing to a mass market audience that doesn't really properly understand what 3,500 BBY means, ripping off the movies to a degree was an absolutely necessity. Ultimately though these visual elements, which are mostly confined to a small number of space scenes, are not the point at which to evaluate the game or its story.

    TOR's stories are actually quite good. Yes they are somewhat generic. It's an MMO, set in Star Wars, there are classical heroes journeys, why are we surprised? The Imperial Agent story is very original and includes many plot twists. Several of the side stories (hi Darth Malgus) are also very interesting. They do, admittedly take some time to develop - many of the people hacking at TOR's stories have the distinctive sound of people who haven't bothered to actually play the game with anything resembling the time commitment to get something done in it.

    There's a lot of people hacking at TOR because it isn't KOTOR III, and that's the game they wanted, not this MMO thing. I sympathize, really, but KOTOR III wasn't happening (KOTOR II didn't even happen in its entirety after all), and projecting expectations of a pure fantasy onto a product that did what was necessary to actually get made is ridiculously unfair.
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