Lit Legacy & TOR vs. the movies

You are Mandalorian barely the difference between being a Mandalorian and not is hardly more than a few lines. Companion dialog sadly isn't necessarily run into. Most of my companion's I end up paying to talk to me.

I'd have liked to have a Mandalorian class with Scout (Ex: Kelborn) and Combatant (Ex: Bralor) advanced classes (I'd also liked to have had a Diplomat, Force Adept, Echani, Champion, and Eliminator but that's another topic for another day) but because it is too similar to the Trooper or the BH it became unlikely to happen due to difficulties in finding unique visuals and skills.

 

I'm still disappointed that you don't get promoted to Grand Moff of Intelligence in the Agent ending.

 

I live in a weak and corrupt democracy so I am whiling to try other forms of goverment.

 

I wouldn't use the Empire as a representation of modern monarchies (bear in mind I'm a Brit, so I'm pretty much in favour of the kind of monarchy we have), since all modern Monarchies (that I'm aware of) have the actual business of government carried out by elected representatives, with the Monarch as a figurehead (or stepping in when the elected representatives are too busy fighting amongst themselves to run the country, as in Belgium recently). AFAIK, the Felpire is not like that.

 

No, the Felpire is a theocratic absolute monarchy. I'm not sure the Grand Moffs are elected either, despite how things went in the Pellaeon days.

 

I agree that the Bendu symbol is the worst offender. It destroys GL's brilliant idea of the Galactic Empire turning symbols of good into symbols of evil.

 

Errr, how did it work in the Pellaeon days? I don't recall elections for Moffhood.

They may have been appointed by the Moffs, but mostly I think it is unclear.

 

It would have been nice perhaps but that does make future story parts a bit difficult due to the whole following orders constantly despite leading (then again the Inquisitor does that dance to so maybe it's not a problem) and it would be a bit of an about face from the Sith. After all the last time you did them a major favor with regards to Jadus their thanks wasn't exactly what one would desire.


Part of the problem with democracy in Star Wars is that at a certain size it fails to be able to represent in a timely or effective manner as a result when the number of people involved hits the trillions things fall apart and most of the democracies in Star Wars hit that point. Star Wars also would likely cause apathy in much of the electorate due to lack of representation and rapidly changing governments.

 

It's not an absolute Monarchy, Fel was forced into war with the GA by the Moffs, so clearly they have a lot of influence. It is more like the Holy Roman Empire then Saudi Arabia (which is a modern day absolute Monarchy).

 

The New Jedi Order features the movie characters; it's not at all the same as what Legacy did. But yes, I obviously don't mind the presence of Jedi, Sith, and Skywalkers. But when they're all thrown together in the same broad storyline as the films, it's the literary equivalent to a slap in the face.

I'm not suggesting Mr. Ostrander was cackling in his dark bathrobe as he sat down to pen the treatment for Legacy, seeking to stick it to the movies.

 

Given that you've used the term "gamesmanship", a choice of terminology I can't see as anything but negative in its connotation, I'm not what you are suggesting then.

 

What I'm suggesting is that Legacy belittles the movies. Whether it was deliberate or unintentional isn't for me to say.

 

I don't think that charge of yours is anywhere near proven though.

 

I think Star Wars Legacy is to some extent victim of the same problem that almost all the Star Wars Expanded Universe has had since 2005 in that it takes its cues on tone from Revenge of the Sith rather than the original trilogy. Having the principal protagonist be an addict that's part of the lower dregs of society is pretty bleak subject matter and something of a barrier to enjoyment for a lot of Star Wars fans, I would imagine. As for the overall narrative, I'm going to be curious to see how the sequel trilogy's conflict plays out to see if there's accusations that it diminishes the successes of the Big 3, or if the story is handled in such a way that it doesn't. I really don't expect to see a situation in which the Sith regain control of the galaxy in the ST -- and if I was going to make the argument that SW Legacy belittles the films, it would be on those grounds rather than on how the narrative is structured. It doesn't surprise me that the Star Wars Expanded Universe is for the most part extremely reliant upon reusing franchise specific tropes.

 

See, to me, the principal attraction of the EU is that it's simply an expansion on the films, it's giving you more of the universe that the films went and dunked you in. To depart too far from the themes and ideas in the films is to no longer have the EU.

Equally, for all KOTOR has been mentioned, how much of the success in that is due to it being before the films? There's a strange outlook that says nothing really bad can happen after the films, without the films being deemed to be "diminished" or "belittled" yet that would as much rule out NJO as much Legacy!

 

That's probably because we're not in court, counselor. It's a subjective discussion entirely. But for me, a plot centered around Sith ruling the galaxy, the Empire supreme, and the Jedi scattered to the winds as Skywalker hijinx ensue is blatantly disrespectful.

 

If that was all you're saying then I'd have no problem, it's just not your cup of tea!

But it's stuff like this:

Which led me to argue that the films are utterly inviolate and unable to be so affected in such a manner, but it's very hard for me not to read this negatively as an unwarranted slating of Ostrander and Duursema. Plus, your general outlook on Legacy doesn't really need it either.

Or is what I've quoted simply an unfortunate excess of hyperbole?

 

I don't disagree with what you say, but there's a wider context to it than "this event has as much gravity as the films" in my opinion. Personally, I think the Sith should have ceased to be a villain after Return of the Jedi -- Dark Empire was written before Palpatine was a Sith and the prophecy existed, and my objection to their use is as much due to the fact that since 2005 they've dominated the Expanded Universe as antagonists, when the EU got along just fine without them for the first fifteen years, only using them in the proper context (Tales of the Jedi, prequel EU). I don't have a problem with the Sith ruling the galaxy and overthrowing the Jedi if it takes place before the films. Episode III even alludes to this having happened before, "once more the Sith will rule the galaxy."

I want the Expanded Universe to equal the films in importance, in terms of treating its storytelling as having no less weight than the films. But SW Legacy fundamentally retelling the same story in one sentence is not doing that, because it's too derivative of the films; it feels like derivative, spin-off fiction just in premise alone. Furthermore, as I expressed in my prior post, the idea of the Sith regaining control of the galaxy as a story premise doesn't sit well with me as it does diminish the films in terms of Anakin destroying the Sith to restore balance to the Force. Yeah, it doesn't mean that the Force will remain balanced forever, or preclude future bad people from gaining power, or even necessarily preclude the Sith as future villains, but if you're going to do that, do it with something other than the Sith. Don't retell the same basic story!

The New Jedi Order threatened the galaxy all the same, but it wasn't a threat that was comparable to Palpatine, it was something entirely different. Having Vitiate or Darth Krayt head a massive Sith Empire only draws comparisons to Darth Sidious. No one is comparing Shimrra to Palpatine because it's entirely different. Darth Sidious isn't lessened as a dark side Force user, or a Dark Lord of the Sith, nor does he even have the potential to be lessened, because the antagonist is something completely different that you can't compare. The same can be said of Grand Admiral Thrawn.

Edit: What's interesting is that the same argument is used against Starkiller in the SOS thread, that he diminishes Luke.

That's the thing with the EU, as I said earlier:

 

Except, like Robi DM, I simply don't see it as being the same basic story! You can certainly reduce it down to that, but that comes as intellectually dishonest to me, due to the sheer amount of boiling required.

Legacy really went with a quite traditional notion as its launch pad: What happens when the heroes aren't around no more? And it went with the traditional answer: Everything goes to hell.

One thing though I don't think anyone, especially NJO fans, could really object to is the use of the Vong in the back story - I really love that particular move. Too bad we'll never get a more in-depth account of it.

Unlike you, I see the films' accursed prophecy to be one of the worst additions to the mythology. It was an entirely gratuitous add-on and arguably greatly undercuts Vader's saving of Luke on the death star. Anything that kicks the crap out of it is welcome.

The overuse of the Sith, by DR, over the last 9 years though, isn't something that I think can entirely be laid at their feet. One thing Legacy sadly demonstrated was that a there's a tendency of SW fandom, as evidenced by discussions here over the last few years, that really lacks imagination! The idea that the Sith are covertly active in the galaxy for about a decade before +138, is then understood to require that they be active far earlier and no other enemies can apparently be included - it's Sith or nothing. That makes no sense whatsoever to me, the only books that really did the One Sith right were Kemp's duo and there they're clearly scared crapless of being discovered! 80-90 years of space really should be more than adequate to do something different, but apparently not.

What we have here is a much bigger version of the big flaw of the DOTJ book Into The Void. That book was badly hurt by having to link into the events of Force Storm but there really should have been no such requirement! It's a big galaxy - make it feel like one! Ditto the gap between the books and comics in the Legacy era, the One Sith should have been left off-stage forever, there was no need to use them, save for this pathetic notion of linking everything up, regardless of need to. And let's not mention the outright vandalism of Apocalypse! But, in doing all this, DR were likely more reacting to fan demands, it's as if Legacy was seen as a destination and thus the story must operate as a sat-nav! Going only there in one narrow line. I don't think LFL, DHC or DR could have possibly anticipated such a strange outlook, but then it's the same outlook that likely gave us "character shields"- all very knowing and post-modern but utterly destructive for the story-telling potential of the EU, put these two together and you may as well ignite an oil well and then complain there's nothing left!

 

So you're agreeing that SW Legacy undercuts the films, then?

Edit: I just want to agree that it does boil down to poor management. I think the Expanded Universe would be better served if it had its own "George Lucas," i.e. one guiding vision to everything. As it is structured, every medium is competing with each other, as you point out about Apocalypse with the One Sith. There's a grudging cooperation at best, but when even Del Rey authors are more or less sniping each other's work you know there's a problem.

 

Ah, emoticons, learning you are DM!

Still not entirely sure where you're going with that one-liner though, except if you mean Legacy screwing over an interpretation of an already really hazy and nebulous prophecy = undercut the fiolms? Then yeah and the films deserved it!

 

Can't we just tell LFL to hire Marco Palmieri?

 

What I don't get is why in The Force's name the Jedi keep thinking that the Sith are extinct.

 

"You must unlearn what you have learned"

 

Unless Del Rey does not want the book to mesh up with Dark Horse Legacy comics since they brought Krayt in so soon and while Luke is still alive