Lit Legacy & TOR vs. the movies

Darth Krayt's age makes no sense to me. He's got thirty years on Luke. The man should be 91 years old in Apocalypse. HE SHOULD BE SLEEPING NOT FIGHTING FORCECTHULHU

 

90 is the new 30!

(I have no better answer!)

 

Good thing they didn't say that in 1945.

 

So far, our thoughts aren't so disparate. I agree that the EU is meant to expand (not cheapen) the films. I also support the continuation and exploration of themes, ideas, tropes, and other storytelling elements featured in the films. I do not, however, support the recycling of major plot points that are ostensibly unique to the films themselves.

For my part, this evaluation is entirely off the mark. I'm with Arawn_Fenn and DigitalMessiah and do not take literally George's proclamation that the Empire's defeat at Endor eliminated evil in the universe. In some ways, Endor is just the beginning and allows for a wealth of stories to be told in the aftermath of Vader's sacrifice. Stories that still challenge our heroes. If you've ever seen any of my posts in the SOS Luke Skywalker thread, you'd know that I fervently support Luke Skywalker continuing to be pushed with adventurous stories and formidable adversaries. In a nutshell, there's plenty of bad that could and should still happen after Return of the Jedi.

But Knights of the Old Republic was successful because it drew on existing Star Wars trappings and cobbled together a story pretty far removed from the films. There are Jedi, Sith, Republics, empires (lower case 'e), superweapons, plot-twists, forbidden romances, corruption and redemption, prodigies and plots, teachers and tyrants, scum and villainy, and epic plot twists!

On the other hand, there's no Chosen One (preserving Anakin's cosmic importance), there's no Galactic Emperor (preserving Palpatine's accomplishments), the Jedi order are battered but operational, the Sith are threatening but not overwhelming, the Republic is bruised but erect, the Star Forge is cool and deadly but doesn't undermine the planet-pulverizing innovation of the Death Star.

That's why KOTOR works and why Legacy and TOR don't (for me, anyways). There is no respectful homage or tribute; just blatant disrespect.

No, it's not my cup of tea. That it cheapening of the movies is precisely why.

I think the problem owes less to what I said than to how you read it.

The passage of mine you quoted in no way vilifies or unduly slates Mr. Ostrander and Duursema. She's a talented illustrator and I'm a fan of Mr. Ostrander's other works.



Here, Ms. Duursema conveys that the creative staff behind Legacy sought to preserve the integrity of the films. And yet all I see is 56 issues of a story that critically undermines the significance of what was depicted in the films.

The films are undercut in more ways than the dismissal of the Chosen One prophecy, which is a minor issue for me due to the fact that, as you've pointed out, the prophecy has been disregarded by plenty of EU.

It has much more to do with Luke and Palpatine's story than anything. With another Sith ruling the galaxy through an empire and defeating the Jedi, you undermine that which made Palpatine so uniquely successful and, subsequently, Luke as well. It's inexcusable.

 

Sable_Hart, in Vision of the Future, the Empire is redeemed. In Legacy, the Empire is a tyrannical Sith regime again, undermining VOTF.

 

Good point, but I'm less disappointed in stuff like that because VOTF is comparatively minor next to the films. And, to be fair, much of the Remnant's redemption owes to a fairly benevolent Pellaeon's authoritarian rule. Without Pellaeon, there's no telling where it would end up.

 

I'd just like to throw this in: the Sith (the Banite Sith to which the prophecy referred and who were the only Sith order active in the galaxy at large at the time of the movies - the Lost Tribe doesn't count) were destroyed by the Chosen One. The movies refer to the Banite Sith as 'The Sith' in much the same way as we can refer to the Catholic Church as 'Christian' - it's technically correct, and although there's a lot of nuance and sectarian difference that you're ignoring, if you're talking circa-1200s, when the Catholic Chuch was really the only sect of Christianity that was doing stuff, then that's an acceptable and correct usage.

Of course, the OTHER Christians can show up and it's correct to also refer to THEM as Christians, but the two are entirely different sects which reach rather different religious/philosophical conclusions from a shared premise.

 

The problem then is that making another Sith group more successful than the Banite Sith is undermining the importance of the films. Which is why I think they should not use Sith at all and not invite the comparison, because either way the comparison is going to diminish something, and I don't want the movies diminished but I also want the Expanded Universe to be more than Diet Sith villains.

 

For me, that cuts off a massive chunk of Star Wars as the conflict between the Light and the Dark is central to the narrative.

Admittedly, I think the problem is the Return of the Sith and the New Sith Order were poorly handled.

Krayt, at least, wasn't BAD.

The best thing about the Lost Tribe was the ancillary stories.

 

Sith =/= dark side.

Look at the Nightsisters.

 

By that token, the Jedi are unnecessary.

 

But Luke is a Jedi, so they aren't.

 

Boiled down to it, I wanted a resurrection of the Sith which confirmed the Banite Sith were dead and gone forever. That Palpatine was the Sith'ari or the Ultimate Sith who was the most nastiest ever and that Darth Vader came in right behind him. I wanted a resurrection of the Sith, also, that wouldn't close the door on them forever but would only need ONE resurrection.

Kesh or Korriban.

Have Luke defeat the Sith's plot and faced with an ENTIRE PLANET FULL OF SITH *REFUSES* To repeat the genocide of the past and let's them go. Telling him the Jedi will stop their evil but they won't be hunted down like animals.

 

The Bantam era was full of non-Sith darksiders. And there can be Jedi-Sith conflicts without the Sith accomplishing what Palpatine accomplished.

 

Oh, I agree.

Darth Emperor McBad (I can never pronounce his name right) only conquered half the galaxy. He was a lot better Sith than Jacen and even Krayt.

 

The Emperor from TOR?

I think it's Vilette (like Gillette only with a V)

 

Vitiate?

 

Lord Vitiate

 

more like eliot spencer amirite?

 

I guess I just have a complete disconnect with this line of thinking.

Palpatine toppled 25,000 years of peaceful rule, destroyed the Jedi Order almost completely and is frankly the reason there even was even an Empire for Krayt to manipulate in the Legacy era.

The One Sith accomplish so very little in their seven years of rule. They don't rule the entire galaxy in the way that Palpatine did. They don't even rule the whole Empire for that matter.

There is also the question of if Krayt and his crew are really Sith, or just darksiders claiming the name.

To me them using all the toys that Palpatine essentially left for them, from Star Destroyers, to Moffs, to cloning, only serves to reinforce how amazing Palpatine's legacy really is.

 

I think a larger issue is in the context of Escalation vs. Fidelity which I almost wrote up for the 1138 site.

The Escalation issue is the standard problem in comics, video games, and so on. Basically, people want to make something big and memorable. This is why Jacen Solo took over the Galactic Alliance and why Krayt took over the galaxy. People wanted to copy Darth Sidious' fate and it actually hurts them because they're copying the heroes.

The Escalation thing, occasionally, DOES work, though. One of my favorite comics in the Republic issue was when General Grevious just utterly owned General Grevious and Durge simultaneously. Ventress and Durge had done their job as villains but hadn't really made a serious impression while Grevious was still riding his Clone Wars cartoon appearance.

Likewise, the reason Darth Vader is remembered so fondly is because he managed to consistently prove his competence in the movies. The Star Wars OT consistently ranks TESB so well because the bad guys show the Death Star was a fluke.

It's also why Starkiller remains so popular and important because the video game makes you feel like you're on par with the movie characters. It's also why I hope, against hope, he makes the transition to the next EU.

However, against Escalation is the idea that the Expanded Universe should never undermine the importance of the movies. It's why people reject Kyp Durron as stronger than Luke Skywalker, why Darth Vader's defeat at Starkiller's hands so irritate people, and why people want Palpatine to be the only one to ever defeat the Jedi Order unlike Kreia.

Fidelity can get a bit catty, however. People don't want our protagonists to be defeated or there to be Sith who are as powerful or Jedi who do such big roles.

 

Popular and important? Vader killed Starkiller on Kashyyyk after seeing a vision of what happens if he trains the boy and for reminding him too much of what might have been.

 

I still think you have to make a great deal of effort to reach the conclusion you have with regard to Legacy's supposed belittling of the films Sable, it's too many square pegs and round holes involved.

As to the prophecy, however, it is the one new plot element from the PT that more than any other is a massive own goal by Lucas and is hugely destructive. It can be argued the notion "Balance of the Force" is to blame for all the crud of LOTF-FOTJ! But leaving those stinkers aside, it radically wrecks what happens on the DS2 in Jedi. Before Anakin saves his son out of a truly selfless desire for no reward, yet is given one anyway. Now he's fulfilling a prophecy - ugh. So more than any other element it deserves a damn kicking.

 

Not at all. It only requires a cursory examination of their plots. Perhaps the problem lies in you wanting to put square pegs in round holes rather than square ones?

 

That's kind of the point, you're skimming the surface, taking as little as possible while reducing down as much as possible and then you're claiming the image you've created is accurate.

Can't really buy into what you're selling here due to that.