Legalisation of Prostitution

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Humble extra, Jun 25, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Yes, but morality and law cross when it comes to protecting human dignity.

    No--because your version of morality might be different from mine.

    There are a few fundamental truths that cross all religions.

    However, for example, you might decide that my listening to heavy metal music is harmful to me. I might decide that it isn't. Therefore, you don't get to outlaw heavy metal music because you think it's harmful.

    It is up to each individual person to protect his or her own dignity--not up to the government.
  2. Darth_Overlord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    No--because your version of morality might be different from mine.

    There are a few fundamental truths that cross all religions.

    However, for example, you might decide that my listening to heavy metal music is harmful to me. I might decide that it isn't. Therefore, you don't get to outlaw heavy metal music because you think it's harmful.

    There can only be one morality. The fact that there are similarities is evidence of that. When there are differences, it should be possible for all the different viewpoints to get together and use reason to come to a concensus.

    Maybe heavy metal music is harmful. Maybe it's not. Either way, it certainly isn't both.

    It is up to each individual person to protect his or her own dignity--not up to the government.

    In a perfect world, there would be no need for government because everyone would know all humans have dignity and what actions infringe on that, and everyone would naturally not do such things. However, the world is not perfect, and therefore governments are there to protect this dignity.

    For example, say I'm a white supremacist. I don't think blacks are human beings. Therefore, according to my morality, beating and killing blacks is perfectly acceptable. Does that mean that beating and killing blacks should be legal? Isn't the government imposing its morality on white supremacists by making it illegal?
  3. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I think a secretary could say, "No, I'm not going to fetch your coffee" and not get fired for it--unless the boss is a jerk.

    I'm kind of assuming any employer who asked his secretary for sex would be a jerk. My question is whether it would be illegal. I don't think it's technically illegal to fire a secretary for not fetching coffee. It certainly wouldn't be considered a form of harassment.


    I would assume that a woman who didn't want to have sex and had no intention of doing so would not be taking a job as a prostitute. That would be like a woman (or a man) who took a job as a secretary and had no intention of typing or answering the phone.

    Perhaps... but could a prostitute claim harassment if she is asked to fetch coffee or answer phones?


    Does that mean that beating and killing blacks should be legal? Isn't the government imposing its morality on white supremacists by making it illegal?

    The government doesn't need a moral code to outlaw beating and killing - both violate someone's rights.
  4. Nrf-Hrdr Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2000
    star 4
    Morals are just opinions. The idea that there's a single, objective moral truth is as crazy to me as the idea that there's a single, objective truth on whether the Phantom Menace was a good film or not, or whether McCartney was better then Lennon. The opinions that are shared by the largest number of people are as close are you're ever going to get to an objective 'truth' on those kind of subjective issues ? and that 'truth' is hardly definitive or reliable.
  5. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, but morality and law cross when it comes to protecting human dignity.

    The law not meant to protect human dignity.
  6. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
  7. Darth_Overlord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    The government doesn't need a moral code to outlaw beating and killing - both violate someone's rights.

    Wouldn't he notion that people have rights be subjective as well?

    Morals are just opinions. The idea that there's a single, objective moral truth is as crazy to me as the idea that there's a single, objective truth on whether the Phantom Menace was a good film or not, or whether McCartney was better then Lennon. The opinions that are shared by the largest number of people are as close are you're ever going to get to an objective 'truth' on those kind of subjective issues ? and that 'truth' is hardly definitive or reliable.

    The idea that morality is that subjective is as crazy to me as saying 2 + 2 does not equal 4 or that lithium does not have 3 protons. As long as there are these two views, I doubt this debate will ever be resolved-- along with a lot of other debates.

    JFT, what is the purpose of law?
  8. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    JFT, what is the purpose of law?

    To protect our rights from being violated.

    Dignity is not a right, it is a state of mind.
  9. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Wouldn't he notion that people have rights be subjective as well?

    Sure, but it's the notion we used as the basis for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Those are not based on a system of morality.
  10. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Dignity is not a right, it is a state of mind.

    Bingo.
  11. Darth_Overlord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    To protect our rights from being violated.

    Ok, why should our rights be protected? Why do we even have rights?

    Dignity is not a right, it is a state of mind.

    Try telling that to the next holocaust victim you meet [face_plain]
    Where does it say dignity is not a right? Who gets to decide such things?

    Sure, but it's the notion we used as the basis for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Those are not based on a system of morality.

    So just because the Constitution says so makes it true? The Constitution used to say that a slave was 3/5 of a person. Did that make it true? Also, where did the Founding Fathers get the notion that humans have rights?

    Plus, at the moment I'm talking about laws in general, not just the US.

    Seemingly odd but relevant question: Does everyone here who thinks prostitution should be legal also think cannibalism should be legal?
  12. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Darth_Overlord

    I don't see how any of your post (constitution, Human rights, and the Holocaust) has anything to do with the topic at hand, except this:

    Seemingly odd but relevant question: Does everyone here who thinks prostitution should be legal also think cannibalism should be legal?

    No, because cannibalism infringes on the rights of the one being eaten. Prostitution does not infringe upon anyone's rights.
  13. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    So just because the Constitution says so makes it true?

    No, the Constitution saying it makes it our system of government.


    Also, where did the Founding Fathers get the notion that humans have rights?

    From philosophers like Locke and Hobbes. It certainly wasn't from the Christian system of morality, if that's what you're implying.
  14. Darth_Overlord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Let me just make my point: Humans have rights. They have these rights no matter what the government says or popular opinion is. Rights do not come from the government, the government protects the rights that hmans have.

    Dignity is a right. At the beginning of the Holocaust Jews were required to wear a star of David on their clothing. Jewish schoolboys were brought to front of the class so the teacher could show they were inferior because of the shape of their skull and nose. What other rights are being violated here, except that of dignity? Maybe we're just having a conflict of definitions here.

    No, because cannibalism infringes on the rights of the one being eaten. Prostitution does not infringe upon anyone's rights.

    What if the cannibalism is consentual? See this article. If a man wants to be eaten, does cannibalism infringe his rights?

    From philosophers like Locke and Hobbes. It certainly wasn't from the Christian system of morality, if that's what you're implying.

    No, I'm not planning to bring up Christianity at all. But how did the philosophers come up with these ideas?
  15. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Dignity is a right.

    This is laughable.

    Dignity is not a right. If it were, then we wouldn't be able to do anything.

    Employers would not have to make their employees dress a certain way. You think I wanted to wear that crappy get-up when I worked at Burger King? Should I sue them for infringing on my right or dignity?

    Or how about soldiers? They're made to drag themselves through mud, to run for miles, all the time having a Drill Seargent yelling at them. How dare we make them go through such a thing!

    As many of us have said, dignity, self respect, et al are subjective.

    To quote my favorite Star Wars character:
    "You can't look dignified while having fun." - Wes Janson, Solo Command

    Dignity is not a right, it is a state of mind. You brought up the Jews in Nazi Germany. Yes, they were humiliated and harmed, but that did not stop many of them from maintaining their dignity. Watch Life is Beautiful with Roberto Binigni or Jacob the Liar with Robin Williams for good examples of this.
  16. Darth_Overlord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Yes, I have seen Life is Beautiful. Excellent movie, BTW. I am not saying the Nazis took away the dignity of the Jews. Dignity cannot be taken away by anybody; Guido is an example of that. What the Nazis did was infringe upon that dignity i.e. they did things to the Jews you would never do to an equal human being. As I said, perhaps this isn't the right word for it.

    Being made to wear a uniform is an attempt to provide a business atmosphere. The drill seargant is trying to recreate the pressures of a battle so they will be prepared for the real thing. This isn't the kind of dignity I'm talking about. Neither is an attempt to deny your humanity.
  17. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    dignity =/= humanity

    Dignity is how one sees themselves. You yourself said that no one can take your dignity away.

    Yet that is what you are trying to do with prostitutes, trying to take away their dignity by telling them that what they do is undignified.

    Just because you wouldn't do it does not mean it is not dignified. I would never want to work in a slaughter house. I think it's disgusting work.

    However, I do not think that they are any less human, any less dignified.

    Neither do I look down upon prostitutes.
  18. Darth_Overlord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Ah, the word I was looking for was humanity then. Thanks for clearing that up.

    So, back to the earlier questions:

    -Is one's sexuality part of one's humanity?

    -If so, ia a customer of a prostitute respecting a prostitute's humanity by having sex without meaning for a price?
  19. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Humanity, eh?

    One's humanity is again only something that the individual can control. No one can take your humanity away from you, only you can let go of your humanity.
  20. Darth_Overlord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    No one can take your humanity away from you, true. But you can't take your humanity away from yourself, either.

    Though the Nazis didn't take away the humanity of the Jews, they did violate it. My concern is that hiring a prostitute may violate the humanity of the prostitute.
  21. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Though the Nazis didn't take away the humanity of the Jews, they did violate it. My concern is that hiring a prostitute may violate the humanity of the prostitute

    By the prostitute consenting to have sex for money, it somehow violates her humanity? I fail to see how consenting to have sex is a violation of ones humanity. If she were raped it would be a totally different story.
  22. Darth_Overlord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Take the cannibalism example. Should it be legal to eat someone if the person being eaten gives consent?
  23. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    No, because as of right now, a person cannot give consent for euthanasia. The man can still be tried for murder.




    EDIT: And you guys seem to be playing word games. "No one can take away one's humanity, but they can infringe upon it."

    That means the exact same thing!

    And again, a person's humanity is not a physical thing, it is a state of mind.
  24. Darth_Overlord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    No, because as of right now, a person cannot give consent for euthanasia. The man can still be tried for murder.

    So you are saying consent is not enough in itself to make something legal?

    And you guys seem to be playing word games. "No one can take away one's humanity, but they can infringe upon it."

    That means the exact same thing!

    And again, a person's humanity is not a physical thing, it is a state of mind.


    No, humanity is a state of being, not a state of mind. If someone thinks you are a bird, he can put you in a cage and feed you birdseed. That does not make you a bird, though you are being treated like one.
  25. Darth Zykalus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 2
    Euthanasia is legal in some country, although there are some condition to ask for it. Nevertheless,that is a debate for another thread. This has nothing to do with prostitution, what is the point your are trying to make ?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.