Legalisation of Prostitution

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Humble extra, Jun 25, 2003.

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  1. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I think that none of those qualify as prostitution because none of them offer intercourse with the customer for money.

    1) That's not the point. The point is, you said that it should not be legal because it isn't private. Yet, by your own definition, nothing is totally private and thus nothing should be legal.

    2) If that's all this issue boils down to, some people having sex, then that's your problem, not ours.
  2. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    The point is, you said that it should not be legal because it isn't private.

    No, I said prostitution doesn't fall under the newly-proclaimed protection for private consentual sex because it isn't private. I was pointing out what I thought to be a flaw in your argument, not offering an argument for why it should be illegal.


    Yet, by your own definition, nothing is totally private and thus nothing should be legal.

    I don't consider anything that involves advertising and sales to be totally private.


    If that's all this issue boils down to, some people having sex, then that's your problem, not ours.

    I'm not sure what you meant here. When you brought up strip clubs and singles bars, I offered what I think to be the explanation for why those are currently legal while prostitution is not. (I'll admit I don't fully understand the reasons for their legality.)

    And the issue does not boil down to "some people having sex" - at least, not for me. I'm not saying that total strangers can't hook up and have sex. I'm saying that the government can and possibly should prevent sex from being a commodity that can be exchanged for money.
  3. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    And the issue does not boil down to "some people having sex" - at least, not for me. I'm not saying that total strangers can't hook up and have sex. I'm saying that the government can and possibly should prevent sex from being a commodity that can be exchanged for money.

    Why not? People have already quoted George Carlin, I'll do so again.

    "Why is prostitution illegal? Selling is legal, ****ing is legal, so why is it illegal to sell ****ing?"

    What makes it different? If sex isn't the issue, then what is?
  4. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I think it has something to do with what happens once sex becomes a commodity. Like I said earlier, it's also illegal to sell your organs. There is something rather frightening about allowing the human body to be bought and sold.

    Not only that, I feel that prostitution would undermine any laws against sexual harassment. I'm not sure whether that's valid enough basis for a law, but it should at least be enough to make people stop and think - why is there a special law for "sexual" harassment? If you don't agree with sexual harassment laws, that's one thing, but if you think they're a good thing, maybe you can explain to me why it's a special area of the law. Why can a boss ask for coffee but not for sex?
  5. Darth Zykalus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 2
    I think it has something to do with what happens once sex becomes a commodity. Like I said earlier, it's also illegal to sell your organs. There is something rather frightening about allowing the human body to be bought and sold. Sex is already a commodity, you can legally buy pretty much what you want, even that lady that eat **** while she is getting *******. And protitution has nothing to do with selling organ. You just give money for sex !!

    Not only that, I feel that prostitution would undermine any laws against sexual harassment. I'm not sure whether that's valid enough basis for a law, but it should at least be enough to make people stop and think - why is there a special law for "sexual" harassment? If you don't agree with sexual harassment laws, that's one thing, but if you think they're a good thing, maybe you can explain to me why it's a special area of the law.Because harassment is harassment, there is no harassment in prostitution, the girl is willing, she is doing the job ! And notice that the victim of harassment is called a victim, because she doesn`t want it. If the pretty secretary is having sex with her boss it is either 2 things.
    1) Harassement and maybe rape, because the boss, in position of power, force her to do something she didn`t.
    2) Nothing, because the pretty secretary wants too

    Why can a boss ask for coffee but not for sex?
    Why can't a boss ask her secretary to flip burger, why can`t a contractor ask his workers to to a dance, why can`t a McDonald manager can`t ask the burger flipper to entertain the client with a song ? Because it has nothing to do with the job... The prostitutes wants to do it !!! She has taken that job !

    KK EDIT: Please mark out the entire word if you wish to imply profanity.
  6. son_of_the_tear Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Also, a few pages back a girl brought "cheating" and "infidelity" into this.

    I'm sorry, but this has no value in this debate. No offense.

    This isn't a thread about infidelity. But about prostitution.

    A guy or WOMAN who cheats will do so. Whether it be with a prostitute or a friend or a random guy or gal.

    It's not like they make it legal and then every guy is going to go: "Hey, we can go cheat now!"

    Because trust me, it is a rather simple procedure to go see a prostitute. It may be illegal, but it's damn easy to get without getting caught or going through any trouble. Not talking about street walkers even, but escort services.

    Infidelity has nothing to do with it.

    Because when I'm with a girlfriend, I'm not gonna cheat on her. With a friend, random girl or a hooker.

    Now, I've been to a brothel before. But I wasn't with a girlfriend then.

    And next time I'm single, I might go again.

    And by the way, I did tell my ex girlfriend about my brothel adventure. She found it kinky and very cool.
  7. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    And protitution has nothing to do with selling organ. You just give money for sex !!

    Since you don't see the similarity, let me try to explain:

    People who say prostitution should be legal say that it doesn't hurt anybody, everything is consentual, and that prostitution isn't that different from any other kind of job. And the George Carlin quote basically asks, why should it be illegal to sell something legal?

    Well, my answer to that is organ donation is legal, but selling your organs is not. (If a family member needs a kidney or a part of a liver, you can donate it instead of making them wait for an organ donor to die. However, you can't offer one of your kidneys for sale on eBay.) Now, why should that be illegal? It doesn't hurt anybody (you can survive just fine), and it's done with your consent - so what's wrong in charging for it?


    Because harassment is harassment, there is no harassment in prostitution, the girl is willing, she is doing the job !

    My point is that if having sex is a valid job duty (it's the duty of a prostitute in a brothel, right?), then why isn't it a valid duty for any other type of employee?


    And notice that the victim of harassment is called a victim, because she doesn`t want it. If the pretty secretary is having sex with her boss it is either 2 things.
    1) Harassement and maybe rape, because the boss, in position of power, force her to do something she didn`t.
    2) Nothing, because the pretty secretary wants too


    Oh, sure, maybe the secretary wants to - because she wants a larger salary. Sexual harassment laws were created to eliminate the pressure to use of sex for career advancement.


    Why can't a boss ask her secretary to flip burger, why can`t a contractor ask his workers to to a dance, why can`t a McDonald manager can`t ask the burger flipper to entertain the client with a song ? Because it has nothing to do with the job.

    But can any of those employees claim "harassment"?

    (Oh, and in some restaurants, the waiters are asked to sing = for customers' birthdays. Is that part of their job? Or is it harassment?)
  8. Valkor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    Well Prostitution IS legal here in Nevada. They tax the **** out of it, like Cigarettes and alcohol, and as mentioned in previous posts, it is up to the county to enforce all zoning laws, etc....

    and if the whole sex for money thing isn't your bag baby, I read in the Reno paper that they are giving freebies to all those in the military.

    Details here

    ps. Legalization is spelled with a "Z" Geez, people just don't know how to spell, let alone legalize prostitution. :p
  9. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    ps. Legalization is spelled with a "Z" Geez, people just don't know how to spell, let alone legalize prostitution.

    Only in America is it spelled with a "z."

    And Humble Extra, the author of the thread, is from New Zealand.

    Only in America! :p
  10. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    damm right....

    In New Zealand we go by the "s" rule



    oh, was just reading the NZ statue that legalises prostition....this is the purpose section:

    3.Purpose?

    The purpose of this Act is to decriminalise prostitution (while not endorsing or morally sanctioning prostitution or its use) and to create a framework that?

    (a)safeguards the human rights of sex workers and protects them from exploitation:

    (b)promotes the welfare and occupational health and safety of sex workers:

    (c)is conducive to public health:

    (d)prohibits the use in prostitution of persons under 18 years of age:


    (e)implements certain other related reforms.



    this is the section that actually legalises prostitution:

    7.Contract for provision of commercial sexual services not void?



    No contract for the provision of, or arranging the provision of, commercial sexual services is illegal or void on public policy or other similar grounds.


    (using the section 2 defiinition of commercial sexual services:
    ``commercial sexual services'' means sexual services that?

    (a)involve physical participation by a person in sexual acts with, and for the gratification of, another person; and

    (b)are provided for payment or other reward (irrespective of whether the reward is given to the person providing the services or another person)


    This section makes it a crime not to adopt safe sex practices, its basically illegal not to use a condom while engaging in prostituion:

    9.Sex workers and clients must adopt safer sex practices?


    (1)A person must not provide or receive commercial sexual services unless he or she has taken all reasonable steps to ensure a prophylactic sheath or other appropriate barrier is used if those services involve vaginal, anal, or oral penetration or another activity with a similar or greater risk of acquiring or transmitting sexually transmissible infections.

    (2)A person must not, for the purpose of providing or receiving commercial sexual services, state or imply that a medical examination of that person means that he or she is not infected, or likely to be infected, with a sexually transmissible infection.

    (3)A person who provides or receives commercial sexual services must take all other reasonable steps to minimise the risk of acquiring or transmitting sexually transmissible infections.

    (4)Every person who contravenes subsection (1), subsection (2), or subsection (3) commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding $2,000.



    What do you guys think of the wording?

    oh and if you want to check out the full text of the legislation itself, you can view for free at www.legislation.govt.nz under Prostitution Reform Act 2003

  11. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I like the section on using protection, very good addition.
  12. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    No contract for the provision of, or arranging the provision of, commercial sexual services is illegal or void on public policy or other similar grounds.

    So where's the part that says my boss can't ask me to make the customer extra happy, if I don't work in a brothel?
  13. Darth Zykalus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 2
    Well, my answer to that is organ donation is legal, but selling your organs is not. (If a family member needs a kidney or a part of a liver, you can donate it instead of making them wait for an organ donor to die. However, you can't offer one of your kidneys for sale on eBay.) Now, why should that be illegal? It doesn't hurt anybody (you can survive just fine), and it's done with your consent - so what's wrong in charging for it?
    What I was trying to say is that the point of selling organ is another matter. I see the point you are trying to make, but we could go at law comparison for hours. It is easy to turn this into "if that is legal, then why that is not" etc etc. The subject ,in the end, is prostitution. There may be simalirities between both case, but with prostitution, both party stays whole.One is about sex the other is about organs, it is another matter.

    My point is that if having sex is a valid job duty (it's the duty of a prostitute in a brothel, right?), then why isn't it a valid duty for any other type of employee? This job duty as you call it, would probably be regulated, allowing only prostitutes to do it. But hell, if sex becomes a valid duty as you call it, you don't have to take that job !

    Oh, sure, maybe the secretary wants to - because she wants a larger salary. Sexual harassment laws were created to eliminate the pressure to use of sex for career advancement.Yeah, and this is still harassement, the secretary's job is to be a secretary, not a prostitute.



    But can any of those employees claim "harassment"?
    Depend the way the boss asks for it, but yeah, harassement isn't always sexual and we are getting out of track...

    You seem to want to mix up things. Legalised prostitution would probably be restricted to brothel or on call services, be regulated and there would be laws around it. You seem to think that because it would become legal, sex would be ok in every work area ! It does not work that way. Harassement would still be harassement and I doubt that "having sex" would become a job duty as you call it. You know, performing in porno movies is legal and you don't see that "duty" being part of a secretary contract. It is not because it is legal that everyone would have to do it or use the services offered. You seem to think that

  14. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    It is easy to turn this into "if that is legal, then why that is not" etc etc.

    It sure is (and I quote):

    "Why is prostitution illegal? Selling is legal, ****ing is legal, so why is it illegal to sell ****ing?"


    This job duty as you call it, would probably be regulated, allowing only prostitutes to do it.

    If that's the case, where is it in the NZ law?


    You know, performing in porno movies is legal and you don't see that "duty" being part of a secretary contract.

    Good point.

    But then, I still haven't figured out why porn movies are legal if prostitution is illegal...
  15. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    The thing you have to realize is, there are existing laws to protect you from sexual harrassment.

    Assuming an employer tries to use the same excuse you are, it will be taken to court. As soon as that happens, the guy will be found guilty. At that time, precedence is set, and no one will get away with it, because it is already illegal.
  16. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    You underestimate the power of a convincing attorney.
  17. Darth Zykalus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 2
    It sure is (and I quote):

    "Why is prostitution illegal? Selling is legal, ****ing is legal, so why is it illegal to sell ****ing?"

    I hardly consider this a good argument, some might, but I do not. This is not why I believe prostitution should be legal.

    If that's the case, where is it in the NZ law?
    It may not be, I said that as a supposition, as I said, it is not because it is legal that a worker would have to do it if asked.

    But then, I still haven't figured out why porn movies are legal if prostitution is illegal... I think the question would be the other way around, why is prostitution still illegal ? But to try to answer it, in a porno movie, the people are, well, acting. The actors are technically paid to act, not to have sex, it is just that there acting requires sex for the movie, and that is legal.
  18. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    But why can't you claim that any other form of prostitution is "acting"? Does it have a minimum audience requirement before it can be considered a performance?
  19. Darth Zykalus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 2
    We are getting off track again, but I guess
    that you are harldy acting when your are alone with a girl, having sex with her and then giving her money for the sex. There must be regulation to make porn, like any other acting business, there are laws boundary to what you can do and can't in a movie.


  20. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    So it's "acting" if both parties are doing it for money, and "prostitution" if only one is paid?

    Sorry if this is sidetracking the discussion, but I really don't understand the logic behind the law sometimes...
  21. Darth Zykalus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 1998
    star 2
    So it's "acting" if both parties are doing it for money, and "prostitution" if only one is paid?
    Well, in acting, the actors are paid to act, in prostitution, the whore is paid to give sex to the client. It is a different process. I don't think you could get away with it be predending that it is acting...

    Sorry if this is sidetracking the discussion, but I really don't understand the logic behind the law sometimes... Laws don't always make sense, usually, it is there to protect the people, but people tries to find way around them, that is where laws become complicated and often, illogical.

    My question is, why is prostitution illegal ? why are they laws that prevent that ?





  22. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I could maybe guess at why it is illegal, but I can't say that I know why it should be.

    As I said before, I don't like the idea of prostitution, and I'd like it to be illegal, but I haven't really found a good reason why it should be illegal. In a society that claims to upholds rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, where "immoral" activities such as pre-marital sex and adultery are legal, where pornography is permitted, why should prostitution be illegal? (Should some of the "immoral" things I've listed also be illegal, or is there something different about prostitution such that it should be treated differently?)

    I'm kind of waiting for a more compelling answer from those who oppose prostitution, as well as examining some possible reasons on my own. I will say that sex is definitely treated differently from other activities under the law, and usually with good reason. However, I'm not sure if sexual abuse and sexual harassment laws are enough basis for outlawing the sale of sexual services.
  23. Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    It's not like against any federal law or anything.

    It's kind of like how a community can keep control of certain activity that affect the townspeople, I mean, like how a city council can outlaw bars in a town, or Casino's, I mean, would you want a casino next door to you?

    So, crappy states with nothing to offer but lax laws say hey, we won't outlaw that here. And prostitution is just one of those activities, and it was for social reasons, kind of like how statutory rape is a crime
  24. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Okay, I do understand that it's not federal law, and I also acknowledge that the state and local governments have the power to pass laws against prostitution; my question is, why should they?


    EDIT:
    it was for social reasons, kind of like how statutory rape is a crime

    Statutory rape laws, presumably, are for the protection of minors. Are prostitution laws for the protection of potential prostitutes?
  25. Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Ah, no, it was to protect women. You know, since women didn't work and fair-minded men decided that it was important to prevent women from degrading them and because their wives were so horrified by it.

    Sure, today now that women have a more equal shot, it doesn't seem AS bad, but the law is in place to prevent men from exploiting women, or from it becoming a commonly accepted social practise, you know, like pre-marital sex.
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