Legalisation of Prostitution

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Humble extra, Jun 25, 2003.

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  1. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    there is talk from the christian party, United Future about putting a bill to parliament soon to repeal the Prostitution Law Reform Act 2003.........seems a little too soon for me, now that its here, at least give it a year or two to see if it actually is beneficial
  2. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    What, you expect them to sit around and watch their country go to hell?

    :p

    I think it's just typical of people whose moral sensibilities are being offended.




    Cruelty lies within kindness.
  3. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    Quick question: have any of you actually employed a prostitute. This argument is getting repetitive, so lets work with this.


  4. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Nope.

    Are you talking too the pro-legal or the anti-legal crowd? Or both?

    Both sides could come up with viable arguments as to why they havent. The anti-legals will say it violates their morals and personal codes. The pro-legals will say they havent because it is illegal or they dont know where to find it.

    If they have, the pro-legals have a leg to stand on saying they enjoyed it, but dont like the risk of getting arrested. The Anti-legals will simply be hipocrits.
  5. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I'm pro-legal, and the reason I haven't is because of my personal code.

    I've had the oportunity in Germany, but I declined because it went against my personal code.

    However, my code is exactly that, mine, not anyone else's, and thus I don't hold people to that code.




    Cruelty lies within kindness.
  6. Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 1999
    star 4
    You know, I've realized I wouldn't be with a prostitute not for religious or moral reasons, but just because of the fact I'm far to arrogant and self-confident to ever have to pay for my pleasure or resort to such business-like dealings when it comes to sex.

    -GAT
  7. Mara_Fett Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 1
    If the prostitutes "asked" for a "donation", rather than demanding payment, would it be legal? Kind of like the schools around here who are not allowed to demand payment for washing cars, but "ask" for $5 donations instead.(Thought it is clearly an implied demand for payment, I don't think anyone ever gets their car washed for free.)
  8. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Jifty: Everyone knows I'm pro-legal. My husband got approached a couple of times when he was cross-country truck driving. He turned them down because he was afraid they'd have diseases. Not a problem if we make it legal and have the girls tested.
  9. Mara_Fett Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2002
    star 1
    Most of the posts I've read seem to lean towards pro-legal. So I figured I try and stir things up a bit.

    How, exactly would you regulate it? I think, even regulated, there is still a lot of potential for disease. I am still pro-legal, cause you still have just as much potential for these diseases if you aren't paying for it, and just sleeping around a lot. And I think who a person sleeps with is their business, payed for or free.

    But, I think that if it were made legal, and considered a business, it would be necessary for them to take a few more safety precautions then someone who sleeps around at parties. Sure, the girls could have regular testing for diseases, but there is always the time between each test when you just don't know. And what about the guys who come to see them? How do you check and make sure they don't have any diseases? Should they bring a note from their doctor?

    I, personally, believe your life, your choice, your risk. But in a business environment I don't think this would go over too well.

    I'm still for making it legal. If you get a disease, it is still as much your fault as if you just slept around with a bunch of people for free. But maybe the difficulty in making it a safe, disease free environment is one of the reasons it is not legal as a business.
  10. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    But, I think that if it were made legal, and considered a business, it would be necessary for them to take a few more safety precautions then someone who sleeps around at parties. Sure, the girls could have regular testing for diseases, but there is always the time between each test when you just don't know. And what about the guys who come to see them? How do you check and make sure they don't have any diseases? Should they bring a note from their doctor?


    Well, looking at the New Zealand law, it requires that condoms must be used in all cases.

    It's a start.




    Anata baka?
  11. Kuna_Tiori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 4
    Vader666:
    Legality of trans-sexuality?

    That's definately wrong. No one has the right to trick someone that he/she is not what he/she appears to be.


    How condescending. If I may ask, what exactly makes prostitution an illegitimate profession?

    As I've said the people in charge of these organizations are A-Holes and lack honor. They would do anything to get more money.

    Pardon me, but if I were a criminal boss, wouldn't I get more money out of an illegal act, rather than a legal one?

    I thought that's how economics worked. Make it illegal and you get a lot for it. Make it legal, demand goes down (or it's not as big of a deal anymore) and your profits go down.

    As a whore. There is no effort.

    Have you ever had sex? Or even ejaculated? There is quite a bit of exertion involved, if what I hear is true. :)

    Yes they can. Illegal narcotics are banned. They can harm the community. As is prostitution. Think of how it can affect marriage. Or how a man can easily cheat on his wife. All these create problems. And not just that it increases likelyhood of disease...

    Then think of how homosexuality can create problems. Of how promotion of individualism can create problems. Freedom of speech causes problems. Hell, democracy causes problems.

    What I'm trying to say is that any number of things can indirectly cause problems, but if there's no direct link (i.e. if you have A then you'll ALWAYS have B) then you can't prosecute them.

    Oh, and let me define "problems". By "problems" I mean direct physical or measurable psychological harm. Anything less cannot be prosecuted, because there's no justification. People have an innate right to life, liberty, and property, as defined by our Constitution. Until that right is harmed, any given action is acceptable. Prostitution doesn't harm any of those rights.

    Darth Overlord:
    I'm saying that the very nature of prostitution turns people into objects. Doesn't that make it a human rights issue? Prostitutes are objects, slaves are property, children are cogs in the industrial machine, what's the difference?

    Unfortunately for you, prostitution cannot be compared to slavery (as you imply) because prostitutes are compensated for their work (quite handsomely, I might add) whereas slaves are/were not.

    And this compensation has to come in the form of money, as far as I know, and cannot be measured in terms of food or shelter or the like. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Perhaps under laissez-faire capitalism employers could treat their employees as machines. However, we have laws against that. You cannot hire minors under a certain age, you cannot keep employees over a certain number of hours without overtime, working conditions must be safe, you cannot discriminate; there are labor unions, workers' comp., unemployment benefits, and sexual harrassment laws. Someone who cares only about profit could care less about all this, but the government forces them to obey.

    Uh, but none of those laws says that the government has to VIEW their employees as more than machines! There is no thought police going around saying, "THINK of your employees as humans with souls!" No, those corporate fatcats can continue to view their employees as mindless rodents as long as they want.

    Same situation here. A law legalising prostitution would not specifically say that prostitution is not a demeaning practice, nor does the law banning it specifically say that it turns women into objects. Laws are supposed to be stoic, impartial - and they should be. Everything else comes from your mind.

    A customer having sex with a prostitute would not be treating her as a machine or an object because he will be paying her for the service. You can't jail him for VIEWING the prostitute as an object. That's thought police, and strictly unconstitutional and unfair.

    Ardens_Furore:
    Everyone is an object to their employer. They don't hire you because you have a soul, they hire you because you can sit down and
  12. Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 1999
    star 4
    Not only that it will then make it ok for a married man to have sex with another woman.

    I see no adultry laws?


    A_G my whole problem with this is that WOMEN ARE not toys. Women are not meat. Women are not things to be bought. Women are human. Humans who have been looked down on and still are.


    Er..women aren't meat or toys or to be bought? :p

    Teasing, and prostitutes simply use their sex to their advantage and take advantage of men/other women. They don't care about any emotional attachment, they get physical pleasure from it, and a load of money in most cases....again who's getting screwed?


    If a woman wants to be a toy, meat, thing to be bought, whatever, and she's not harming anyone else in being so, what is the problem? It's her life, her choice. Let her make it.

    A-bloody-men! Now, all toys, pets, submissives please sign up here for the slavel train... :D

    -GAT
  13. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Legality of trans-sexuality?

    That's definately wrong. No one has the right to trick someone that he/she is not what he/she appears to be.


    People do it all the time--it just doesn't always involve what gender they are.

    Some people trick other people into thinking they're nice when they aren't, or rich when they aren't. Are you going to legislate this as well?

    If some guy wants to dress up in women's clothing and pretend to be a woman, I think he's nuts because our clothes are so uncomfortable, but who am I to stop him?

    Think of how it can affect marriage. Or how a man can easily cheat on his wife. All these create problems. And not just that it increases likelyhood of disease...

    A man can easily cheat on his wife anyway. My husband gets propositioned on his job all the time. I don't think it would make it easier for a guy to cheat on his wife when he has to pay an exhorbitant price to do it.


  14. Kuna_Tiori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 4
    anakin_girl: Women's clothing is uncomfortable? How so?

    I think women at least have an advantage when it comes to formal wear. They're allowed so much diversity, in terms of color, styles, etc., whereas us guys have to make do with the same thing: suit jacket, slacks, dress shirt, tie. Oh, we get to pick our colors/designs, but the clothes are basically the same. Plus, women can get away with wearing more...brief clothing, which seems to me to be a relief on those hot days. I'd imagine that wearing a skirt and sleeveless blouse is much more comfortable in 100-degree weather than a full suit.
  15. death_starlet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    Here's something to consider:

    A few years ago, the topic for high school competitive debate was privacy. One team I debated argued that we should legalize prostitution because limiting it violates people's rights to privacy. Their main adavantage on the case was a call for women's rights, like it's more liberating to be able to choose that profession without government intrusion. As a woman, I don't feel that my right to privacy, fourth amendment rights, etc. are limited by criminalization of prostitution. But I can sort of see where they are coming from. Thoughts?
  16. Kuna_Tiori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 4
    Kitt327:
    To me, claiming that prostitution is always a choice is like claiming there is no such thing as statutory rape, because it was the minor's 'choice'.

    Well, for the record, I am very cool to the idea of "statuatory rape" as many times it is not rape at all.

    The law recognizes that there are some things which impedes an individuals ablity to make an informed choice - youth being one of them.

    Yes, the law has issued blanket statements saying that all people under 18 are mentally incapable of making decisions.

    Are we to do the same with ADULT prostitutes of sound mind?

    I believe addiction to drugs and extreme poverty are two other circumstances which impedes as individual's ability to make rational choices. I believe the people who exploit others in those circumstances are criminals.

    So are you implying that all prostitutes are drug addicts and/or impoverished?

    Also, what if the people who "exploit" them are not made aware of their circumstances? Could they still be held as criminals when they didn't consciously commit the so-called "crime"?

    And if the prostitute consents to sex, how exactly is it a "crime" (anti-prostitution laws aside)?

    Darth_Overlord:
    Therefore, no one may be treated as an object, even if he or she wants to be.

    Yes, this is definitely the strongest argument I've seen so far. [face_plain]

    I can't think of much to say in response, other than that people have the right to being whatever they want to be so long as they don't harm others. This is embodied in the Constitution: "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..." It's only fair to let people have self-determination in what they want their lives to be. I'm sorry if this argument is somewhat dogmatic, but it's not any more so than yours.

    stated by J_F_T:
    Besides which, it is not up to you to declare that others are objects or not. If they decide to do this, and they like their job, and they don't feel like an object, are they still objects? What if they are proud of all the money they have? What if they are still dignified?

    Your standards, hell, even my standards, have no affect on this issue. You might see them as objects, but that does not mean others, especially the prostitutes themselves, see them in that light. You are the ones turning them into objects by insisting that all prostitutes are so.


    He found the words that I could not. Good arguments, J_F_T.

    And no one has yet to answer my other question: is the act of having sex with someone you don't know for a price showing the dignity and respect of an equal that the prostitute deserves?

    That varies from person to person. Some prostitutes might say so, others might not but wouldn't really care anyway. Respect and dignity are things that each person has to find on his/her own, Overlord, and if he/she can't find them as a prostitute, then he/she should just find another job.

    Those who do find them as prostitutes should by all means continue to enjoy them as prostitutes.

    And I pose another question: What is the purpose of law in the first place?

    As I see it, law serves four purposes: 1) To uphold the Constitution 2) To protect people and their liberties 3) To punish and discourage those who would violate those liberties and 4) To express government disapproval of certain activities.

    If by "law" you also include more promotional acts like Medicare, welfare bills, etc., and government programs, then you could say 5) To uphold the general welfare of the nation. Of course, that fits under 1) as well, since promoting the general welfare is a task assigned to the U.S. Congress in the Constitution.

    But is anyone allowed to treat people as inferiors?

    Of course. It's called being a jerk, and is practiced readily by the great majority of the human species.

    Another question: is sexuality a part of the human person or not?

    Again, that depends on who you're asking. It's something really subjective
  17. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    i would just like to say i think this debate has been pretty good so far......

    to answer the question have i ever used a prostitute? No, i have never used one........

    i have been to a few strip bars with friends before, which i have enjoyed, although i did notice a tendency to objectify women afterwards, but that may have been the beer....

    would i ever use a prostitute? i am not sure...to be honest, as a student i don't really have the money to use one (and i do know the prices, as they do advertise).....i would prefer not to i think, but i have a feeling it is one of those things that once you try you keep going back for more, so friends have told me anyway........
  18. Kaui-Gone-Jim Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2002
    star 3
    I grew up Catholic and had it drilled into me that sex is only for marriage partners...
    I did go to one prostitute in Nevada at 19 (before meeting my wife four years later), and I have no regrets.
    It was a safe, first-time experience of sex.

    When high emotion is involved (especially with teen 'first love'), you sometimes wind up with unplanned pregnancies, STD, etc., because of those rushing, gushing teen hormones. For reasons as this, and others, IMO the world's oldest profession should be legal/monitored/safe (and taxed) in every state and country everywhere.
  19. Vader666 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 5
    Sex is always risky. Sex with strangers is even riskier. Prostitutes know that, and if they are willing to accept that risk that is their prerogative.

    No it is not always risky. Of course if you remain monogomous or engage in sex with your wife it is 100% safe (unless your partner is cheating on you but let's keep it simple for now). If you mean risky as in "unwanted children" then you are also wrong. "Unwanted children" is a result of carelessness. The couple did not take the necessary precautions to prevent such an occurence. I agree, sex with strangers is risky but still prostitutes don't have the right to take this personally. Suppose the prostitute is the host and transmits a disease to her subject. Is that fair? She may be willing to take that risk but she might end up risking others to the same eventual fate. Secondly it is stupid to take a risk that is life threatening for no reason. There are many other ways to make money. And not all prostitutes are willing to take that risk. Some are forced too.

    I must remind you that there are many jobs that involve extreme danger, i.e. military, airline pilot, coal miners, construction workers, hell even taxi drivers. Should those professions be outlawed too?

    That is for a good cause. They may be slightly life threatening (with exception to the military) but at the same time those professions do not "harm" the community. That is the profound difference between the ones you stated above and prostitution.
  20. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    That is for a good cause. They may be slightly life threatening (with exception to the military) but at the same time those professions do not "harm" the community. That is the profound difference between the ones you stated above and prostitution.

    How does prostitution harm the community?

    The only thing I see it harming are people's precious sensibilities.




    Anata baka?!
  21. Vader666 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 5
    Funny Twin

    STDs. Personal problems etc....
  22. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    STDs. Personal problems etc....

    Under legalized and controlled prostitution, the prostitutes would need to use a condom, so STDs are out.

    Personal problem? Everyone has those, and it's not limited to prostitution.

    And what is "etc?" What problems does "etc" represent?




    Anata baka?!
  23. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    No it is not always risky. Of course if you remain monogomous or engage in sex with your wife it is 100% safe (unless your partner is cheating on you but let's keep it simple for now).

    Birth control is not 100 percent effective, so unwanted children are not always the result of carelessness.

    And not all prostitutes are willing to take that risk. Some are forced too.

    If anyone is being forced to do a job, that is an entirely different issue that has nothing to do with prostitution.

    STDs. Personal problems etc....

    As Jifty said, the prostitutes should be required to use condoms.

    And it's not up to the government to protect people from personal problems. If it were, people wouldn't be so upset about the condition of AFDC.

    The only thing I see it harming are people's precious sensibilities.

    My thoughts exactly.
  24. Vader666 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 5
    Under legalized and controlled prostitution, the prostitutes would need to use a condom, so STDs are out.

    Condoms do not ensure full protection. STDs are still a liability. And how can you gaurantee that a condom will be used? Perhaps someone will pay extra for condom free sex. Or even oral sex. The prostitute will probably accept it considering she needs the money. Did legalization of guns prevent gun trafficking? Did the ban of illegal narcotics prevent cocaine trafficking? Legalizing it does not mean you can fully prevent something illegal from happening.

    And it's not up to the government to protect people from personal problems. If it were, people wouldn't be so upset about the condition of AFDC.

    True. But why support something that can potentially harm the community? Isn't it sensible or moral to think of the consequences? Now governments cannot prevent husbands cheating on their wives. That is beyond them. But they can at least try to lessen the possibilty of that happening (eliminating prostitution is one way).
  25. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Condoms do not ensure full protection. STDs are still a liability. And how can you gaurantee that a condom will be used? Perhaps someone will pay extra for condom free sex. Or even oral sex. The prostitute will probably accept it considering she needs the money. Did legalization of guns prevent gun trafficking? Did the ban of illegal narcotics prevent cocaine trafficking? Legalizing it does not mean you can fully prevent something illegal from happening.

    Again, you seem to be missing (or ignoring) the posts where we have made mention of brothels. In a brothel, the girl's must use condoms. IIRC, in the brothels in Nevada, they must show the used condom as proof, and that condom is handed out by the brothel, so a guy can't jus tcome in off the street with a used one and present it as proof.

    True. But why support something that can potentially harm the community? Isn't it sensible or moral to think of the consequences? Now governments cannot prevent husbands cheating on their wives. That is beyond them. But they can at least try to lessen the possibilty of that happening (eliminating prostitution is one way).

    It is not the duty of government to dictate morals.

    And husbands will cheat, legalized prostitution or not.




    Anata baka?!
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