Legalisation of Prostitution

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Humble extra, Jun 25, 2003.

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  1. Waning Drill Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 1999
    star 5
    Do you get a little white board that hangs around you neck and lists how many sexual partners you've had, followed by their gender and a list of diseases? I think that would be cute.
  2. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    i can't nail down what causes prostitution, or why people go into the industry in general (including say, strippers).....i think i would have to generalise too much, as i think there are probably many reasons, its not just as simple as a money thing.........alot of western countries have pretty good welfare safety nets.....which admittedly might not be enough to feed a drug habit, but it would catch alot of people who might usually become prostitutes....there must be more to it than money or drugs
  3. Crimson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    Maybe, but as someone said after this, why not do it for free then? If they truly view it as just a physical thing they desire, they can go to parties and have sex with anyone they want.

    Because sex is a service that has a dollar value. Whether it's paying a hooker $200 for an hour at a hotel, or spending $50 on a date(several dates) at the movies and dinner(or whatever), men pay for sex(in monetary terms) no matter how you slice it.
  4. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Why do it for free when you can get paid for it?
  5. Jedi-Monkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2002
    star 4
    I was so happy to see that someone had already brought up what G.C. had to say about it. They are wise words, no matter how some people might try to pervert them and attach them to other subjects.

    Something about prostitution that has always amused me, is the guys who say, "I won't pay for it. I can get it on my own without paying for it." How? You take a woman out, you buy her dinner, drinks, maybe go to a show, you have just "paid for it." Or the people who say they don't need to pay for it because they're married. Hey - I've been married, so I know you're "paying for it." More than any prostitute would ever charge.

    Legalizing prostitution does make sense. It's not going to stop, no matter what goofy laws governments try to enact. And unlike the rape of murder thing that was brought up earlier, how is prostitution hurting someone? Who is the victim. Something else Carlin mentioned when talking about this subject; "Of all the things you can do to someone, giving them an orgasm is hardly the worst one." That is why it is absurd to try and compare a prostitute with a murderer or rapist.

    If these women who were prostitutes were being monitored, they were wroking in a legal brothel, then the benefits would be there for everyone. The girls could have regular medical check-ups, and work in a much safer environment. The customers would not have to be constantly worrying about cops showing up. And the government could tax it. Everyone wins!

    I don't see any problem with prostitution being legalized, as long as it isn't being performed in a business with any close proximity to neighborhoods.

    This is kinda funny. I do agree with it, to an extent, but it's still funny. Because in those neighborhhods, the exact same thing is going on in just about every house there.

    i find it sad that people think that sex w/ a prostitute could fill their emptiness -- true love can only be expressed if the people are committed and caring.

    But we aren't talking about true love. I don't think anyone really goes to a prostitute expecting a meaningful relationship. They want to get off. They have a need to fulfill a natural desire or craving. This stuff about having sex only with someone you truly love has been so deeply pounded into us that we believe that wasd the way it was intended. Nature never meant it that way. I don't argue that true love is a bad thing, or that once you find it being only with that person is bad. I think it's great! but until you find it, or if you don't, (not everyone does,) there are still natural urges to be dealt with.

    On one hand, prostitution is wrong. Sex isn't just something to be bought or sold; it's something that two people share out of love for mutual pleasure.

    That is a nice ideal, but it isn't based much in reality unfortunately. That is something that society has invented. It's there solely to help make people feel better about a natural act that society has also told them is dirty and wrong, unless done under the circumstances we have set. It's simply a way for society (and religion, where most of this stems from,) to control the population. Control our actions and our thoughts.

    this is a STAR WARS FAN BOARD!! obviously we favor it!

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    Thank you. THAT was funny!
  6. Darth_Overlord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Allow me to play devil's advocate:

    Slavery should be legal under certain circumstances. Let's say someone is so desperate he wishes to sell himself to a slaveowner. At least he will have food, clothing, and shelter, right? The government could regulate it to make sure the slaves are treated fairly, and can even tax the industry.

    Too bad we have that pesky 13th amendment. Why not, if both parties agree to it? This is obviously an attempt to control us. The government is just trying to impose its morality on us.
  7. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    It would also imho cut down on rape and sex related assaults both on the prostitutes themselves and the general public.

    That's a very, very old view...one that actually stems back until the middle ages where towns had their streets of brothels for men to use. The church and government believed that this brought down the number of young men who would prey on "decent women" or unmarried virgins.

    Statistically, you are probably wrong. If you've read such books as the "Final Report of the Attorney General's Commission on Pornography," you would understand that, in fact, there is a very clear progression between porn-->(prostitution, though this "step" is often skipped, but I feel it fits in rather well)-->rape-->murder. This progression has been well-documented through complex studies of criminals and criminal behavior.

    You'd also find that perpetrators have rape have real issues with women in general and power plays as well. Men (and or women) who perpetrate these sorts of crimes are doing it for reasons that go a lot deeper then just viewing pornography. If viewing oorn or visiting a prostitute made you go out and rape or kill someone then there would be a lot more men in jail.

    Perhaps, for one night, a man (not any man, please don't take this personally--I'm referring specifically to men who would otherwise be out raping someone) might pay rather than rape.

    That's not the point of rape. The point of rape is a power game between the victim and the perpetrator. He isn't going to be fobbed off with a prostitute at that stage. The desire to rape someone goes a lot deeper then just not having the money to pay for sex.


    Slavery should be legal under certain circumstances. Let's say someone is so desperate he wishes to sell himself to a slaveowner. At least he will have food, clothing, and shelter, right? The government could regulate it to make sure the slaves are treated fairly, and can even tax the industry.

    Selling your body is different then becomming someone's property. Most people sell something or provide a part of them when they work. I sell Toys in a department store. I provide my time, my physcial skills, my knowledge and so forth. The company pays me for providing these things. It's the same with prostitution, the girl (or guy) provides his/her body and the customer pays for the privelidge of having sex with her/him.

    You aren't ever going to wipe out prostitution. Even the medieval church recognised this (they taxed it instead). If you do wipe out open prostitution and brothels it will simply go underground where it becomes more dangerous for the girls and guys who work there.

    Instead of arguing about the morality or lack there of, why not start debating about how to make the industry safer for everyone?

    Kithera
  8. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Overlord: That sort of thing happened, and not too long ago. It was called "sharecropping". One great-grandfather on my father's side was a sharecropper, as were his parents and grandparents. That's the way the "poor white trash" (white non-plantation owners)survived in the South. Slaves who weren't abused by their masters and were given food, clothing and shelter were better off (in an economical sense only, of course, because absolutely nothing replaces freedom) than the sharecroppers were.
  9. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    My grandfather on my mother's side was a share-cropper.
  10. Bant428 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 4
    Womberty,

    comparing prostitution to rape and murder is wrong because SEX IS NOT A CRIME, unlike what some religious freaks think...

  11. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I wasn't really comparing them; I was pointing out the logical fallacy in the argument "it's not going away, so we should just make it safer."

    As I said later, prostitution is different in that it's more difficult to point out a specific victim.


    EDIT:
    And at least one form of sex is a crime: rape.


    Why do it for free when you can get paid for it?

    Again - why should I donate a kidney for free when I could possibly get paid for it? Why won't the government let me sell my organs?
  12. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    well, in a way society has made murder safer.........rstrictions on dangerous weapons have reduced the chances of crimes of passion/ or of opportunity becoming fatal..........an effective police and judicial system has reduced the chances of reoffending........
  13. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    No, if you follow the logic of the original argument, you would need to make it safer for the person committing the crime. An example would be laws against self-defense, or restricting police officers from using deadly force to prevent someone from committing the crime. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

    Certain activities will not go away. They are part of our nature as human beings. The reason we have government is because humans in their natural state would not live together peacefully. Life would be violent, and survival of the fittest would be the ultimate law. We would not progress very far under those conditions, so we communally agree to grant everyone certain rights and to refrain from certain destructive behaviors, for the benefit of our society as a whole.

    Now, you could maybe argue that prostitution isn't violating anyone's rights, but simply supporting its legalization because "it's not going away" doesn't make much sense.
  14. skywalker325 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Selling your body is different then becomming someone's property.

    how so?
  15. Bant428 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 4
    womberty --
    it's not going to go away" is not my only reason. consentual sex isn't a crime, and so what if money's involved! it always is, even w/ a married couple!

    btw, a year ago, I never would have agreed w/ the legalization of prostitution.

    then I learned how amazingly horny men can be.

    (why is it that whenever I put in my 2 cents, on the net or in real life, someone thinx its a crime and makes a mockery out of me!)

    u can stop picking on me now. there's a whole bunch of posts that came after me that u can nitpick. i'm outta here.
  16. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    it's not going to go away" is not my only reason. consentual sex isn't a crime,

    The latter makes a better argument; perhaps you should have said that in your first post.


    btw, a year ago, I never would have agreed w/ the legalization of prostitution.

    then I learned how amazingly horny men can be.


    Careful - you're going back to your first argument, and it doesn't work. Sure, men can be "amazingly horny," but does that mean they have a right to have sex whenever they want? What about if they can't find a willing woman (prostitute or not) - would they be justified if they committed rape? After all, they were "amazingly horny."


    You aren't ever going to wipe out prostitution. Even the medieval church recognised this (they taxed it instead). If you do wipe out open prostitution and brothels it will simply go underground where it becomes more dangerous for the girls and guys who work there.

    Instead of arguing about the morality or lack there of, why not start debating about how to make the industry safer for everyone?


    Because you, too, are arguing that "it won't go away, so we should make it safer."
    As I said before, that argument doesn't make sense to me. Our entire system of law is designed to prevent people from doing what they would naturally do; if we were naturally well-behaved, we would have no need for government.
  17. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Because you, too, are arguing that "it won't go away, so we should make it safer."
    As I said before, that argument doesn't make sense to me. Our entire system of law is designed to prevent people from doing what they would naturally do; if we were naturally well-behaved, we would have no need for government.


    It makes perfect sense to me Womberty. I firstly see nothing wrong with consentual sex between adults, secondly I see nothing wrong with one party charging for that sex.

    If you can explain to me how you would get around prostitution (or make it go away) then I might get a better idea of where you are comming from. Instead I see, realisitically, that prostitution is probably always going to be part of our society. I want to make the industry safer rather then forcing it into the underground as happens everytime it's made illegal.

    I'd rather they legalised and regulated the prostitution industry simply because it makes it safer for the girls and guys who work there.

    I think we may have to agree to disagree. I can't understand what you are thinking in relations to this subject and you can't understand or don't accept my arguement.

    Kithera

  18. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    i think people, naturally make a distinction between certain types of crime.....which of course can very between certain cultures.

    for example in my country the act of killing someone, whether accidental or deliberate (outside of war) is considered almost without exception a bad thing and its not something that people think about, they just know its wrong......so if you accidently kill someone on the motorway, or shoot an intruder in your house, you will still get punished for it, sure not as much as someone who deliberately killed......
    the same goes for assault on the person of another....whether it be a fist fight, with weapons, or domestic..it is usually seen as bad and requiring punishment.

    people distinguish these crimes from affairs of vice, and always have done.........why? who knows....smoking weed is hardly ever seen as being as bad as murder, nor prostitution

    when people say that prostitution will always happen, so the government should try and make it better they are not using a broad brush strokes interpretation like you seem to think womberty, they are making a distinction between consential prostitution where there is a willing seller and a willing buyer and other situations where the seller does not have a choice...no one i would hope would want the government to expediate the latter kind of prostitution.

    put simple most people don't have a unified view of the concept of "crime".
  19. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I firstly see nothing wrong with consentual sex between adults, secondly I see nothing wrong with one party charging for that sex.

    I think it was an episode of The West Wing that posed the question, "How do you prove it's consentual?" How do you prove that women aren't forced into prostitution to pay debts, or for any other reason?

    It's probably the same logic behind the ban on selling organs - how do you prove that it came from a willing donor?


    Instead I see, realisitically, that prostitution is probably always going to be part of our society.

    Realistically, murder and rape will always be a part of our society as well.

    You can argue that prostitution is consentual sex, or point out the fiscal benefits of taxing the trade - but don't try to justify it simply because it's not going away.


    I can't understand what you are thinking in relations to this subject and you can't understand or don't accept my arguement.

    I'm not entirely sure what to think about legalizing prostitution - I dislike it for a number of reasons, but I'm not sure how well that meshes with my theory of how government should work.

    The reason I don't accept the basic argument of "it won't go away, so make it safer" is that I find it illogical. We make laws that prohibit natural behaviors that, no matter how hard we try, will not go away. There will always be murderers, but that does not make us wrong for outlawing murder.

    When considering a subject like this, I like to frame the argument in terms of individual rights: it should be illegal if it violates someone else's rights. With murder, the conclusion is simple; it violates someone's rights to their own life, and therefore should be illegal. With prostitution, it's less clear to me that there is an individual victim of each occurance. I guess I'm still looking for some justification for my gut reaction - that I do not want prostitution to be legal.
  20. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "How do you prove that women aren't forced into prostitution to pay debts, or for any other reason?"

    How do you prove they're not forced into any other job to pay debts? Is prostitution any more degrading than scrubing toilets? It's a job like any other, the only thing that makes it different is the stigma surrounding it.
  21. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Is prostitution any more degrading than scrubing toilets?

    The law treats sex differently from labor. Most states, I think, allow minors work from at least age 15. They don't offer similar exceptions for statutory rape.

  22. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    just an update on NZ's situation since we legalised last week.
    There have been a few furious reactions from some local councils, stating that they will ban brothels from their areas. This has prompted the response from most legal analysts that it would be impossible to do this entirely.
    The most promiment newspaper has taken advertisments for offers of brothel employment. Other newspapers have had a marked increase in the number of establishments offfering services, but as yet, the language they use is still restrained, no mentioning directly of sex or the word brothel. It is hard to say if this is just a hangover from the previous need for using different names (eg massage parlours) on the part of the adult industry, or an advertising code on the part of the newspaper industry.
    The government employment agency has refused to place advertisments for brothel jobs in its offices. There could be some further action taken on this through the courts, but it will probably die down i think.
  23. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    that evil mexican, senor double post has struck again, I apologise for his boorish behaviour
  24. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    "How do you prove that women aren't forced into prostitution to pay debts, or for any other reason?"

    I was forced into taking my job because of debts. Admittedly it's not prostitution or any other associated job. However, being treated like people's personal slave (I work in retail) is incredabley degrading.

    So, Womberty. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. While you see my point as totally illogical I see yours as the same ;) To me it makes sense to make a workplace (any workplace) safer and cleaner for those involved, and if the only way to do that is to regulate it then so be it.

    Murder and rape are different as it takes one person's freedoms away from them. I have strong feelings against pimping and slave-like brothel houses where the girls have no chance of getting out of the industry as I feel it is the same thing.

    So, if we can't legalise it, or make it safer...how do you propose we get rid of it?

    If it is simply for relief of debts then perhaps a better social security system (especially for university students who make up the largest number of sex workers in the western world) would do the trick. However, that isn't going to catch everyone.

    What about the myriad of social and personal reasons for people to go into prostitution?

    The social and personal reasons would probably needed to be allieviated (sp) by having a good counscelling service provided so that sex workers could slowly work their way out of the industry (but it would be harder to have an open counscelling service for prostitutes illegal).

    What about girls/guys who do it because they like it?

    Finally, what are you going to do with the men/women who use brothels and strip joints? Some people get off on paying a prostitute for sex. I doubt they are going to go off and rape someone, but they are still going to want to pay someone for it... (I don't proscribe to the whole no prostitution = more rape theory)

    My simple arguement is that by legalising it the government can regulate it. They can also tax it, and the tax can go and provide for the following things.

    1) Councelling service for all sex-workers. With regular visits compulsory.

    2) Compulsory (free) Sexually-transmitted disease testing.

    3) To set up a board/squad to crack down on unlicensed brothels or places where girls are kept as virtual slaves for men.


    I'm sure there are lots of other things it could provide for (perhaps a fund if a prostitute wanted to get out of the industry but didn't have the capital). Job training for prostitutes who wanted to leave the industry?

    Kithera
  25. Jaded_Girl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2001
    star 4
    We aren't just talking about some law, here. We are talking about a woman's dignity.

    Essentially, this "buisiness" is about one thing: satisfying people's- mostly men's- desires at the expense of another.

    Like it or not a human's sexuality is a very deep and integral part of our nature. Viewing sex as a sacred gift that should be saved until marriage was decried above as the ideal, but not realistic. I ask you, what's wrong with that? If people do not work towards worthwhile ideals that better people and society, than we will continue living in a society that grows progressively worse. There is nothing wrong with pursuing an ideal. It is entirely possible to exercise self-control, it's just difficult. Heaven forbid we choose the harder but more worthwhile path. A healthly, respectful view of sexuality is a goal worth working towards. If we can accomplish that, then prostitution, rape and abuse will automatically reduce.

    Prostitution victimizes women. I find it amazing that feminists don't speak out against it more often because it is essentially subjugating the essence of woman's sexuality to those who only want to use them to satify themselves with no thought to the woman.

    By legalizing prostitution we are giving free licience to uninhibited- and more than likely frustrated- individuals to satiate their disordered and exaggerated desires at the expense of someone at a finacial disadvantage. Sure, there might be one woman in a thousand who gets kicks from this kind of work, but it is also practically a given that this person is probably suffering from some sort of emotional problem that would be much more effectively solved in a psychiatrist's office than out on a street corner.

    Prostitution warps one of humanity's greatest gifts, further debases unfortunates, encourages the undiciplined, breaks up marriages and destroys homes. Legalizing prostitution will not solve these problems. Let's work on providing jobs for these girls as well as less expensive medical coverage and safer cities rather than legalizing prostitution. Impossible, you say? No, just hard. Legalizing prostitution is just the easy way out. It won't solve anything; it will just make things worse.
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