Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Humble extra, Jun 25, 2003.
So women aren't intelligent enough to make their own career choices?
No one has answered skywalker325's question yet...
Like it or not a human's sexuality is a very deep and integral part of our nature. Viewing sex as a sacred gift that should be saved until marriage was decried above as the ideal, but not realistic. I ask you, what's wrong with that? If people do not work towards worthwhile ideals that better people and society, than we will continue living in a society that grows progressively worse.
So in your eyes, Society has been going down ever since there was a cilivilisation? (Because frankly that's how long there has been prostitution).
It would be nice to say lets give all the girls a new job. However, what do you do about the girls who are in it for the money? A friend (during this same debate last night) pointed out how much a high class prostitute can make in a week. Many people are just in it so that they can make money....
What are you going to do about them? On the other hand, how are you going to support a work force that runs into the thousands if they all have to quit and leave? Which jobs would they go to?
(The last bit is just a bit of realistic thinking in terms of forcing every prostitute and sex worker out into the market which already has a large number of job-seekers).
Saint_of_Killers: So women aren't intelligent enough to make their own career choices?
Not at all. Rather let me say that I do not think that women should considerate it a very intelligent "career" choice. I hope that the rest of my points indicate that I only wish to protect and have others respect my fellow females.
Kit': So in your eyes, Society has been going down ever since there was a cilivilisation? (Because frankly that's how long there has been prostitution).
My belief is that as long as there is sin in the world there will be faults and problems in society. There is little chance that we will fully escape or eradicate such problems, however we shouldn't just ignore them either. And it is true that prostitution has been going on for a long time. But I think that the main reason for that is stated in your next statement: it is indeed quite profitable. Why is this so? Why has it been thus for centuries? Because prostitution thrives on people's selfishness and excesses. There are people out there who never wanted and will never want prostitution to be illegal because such would interfere with their pleasures. I personally do not think we should encourage such selfish, unrestrained behavior.
Selling your body, so to speak, is different from slavery in that both people are coming to a mutual argeement on services being rendered and the price to be paid for those services. Both parties are equal actors and consent is given on both sides. Both parties can change their minds and decide not to buy or sell the services that were agreed on. In other words, it is nothing more than an exchange. The buyer and seller have no obligations to each other outside of their transaction.
In contrast, slavery requires that one of the parties is obligated to perform services without their consent. The master owns the slave. Thus, the relationship is between owner and property, not consenting individuals as is the case with prostitution.
"Because prostitution thrives on people's selfishness and excesses."
Along with every other for-profit enterprise. Welcome to capitalism.
Saint_of_Killers: Welcome to capitalism.
Still, "profit-via-money" capitalism is largely a different matter than "profit-via-people" prostitution.
There are people out there who never wanted and will never want prostitution to be illegal because such would interfere with their pleasures. I personally do not think we should encourage such selfish, unrestrained behavior.
I never want prostitution to be illegal. Will I ever use a prostitute? Nope. Will I ever be a prostitute (not if I can help it!).
Why do I want it to be legal? To repeat myself for the umpteenth time. So that by making it legal you can regulate it and tax it and make it safer for the girls who work in the industry.
Still, "profit-via-money" capitalism is largely a different matter than "profit-via-people" prostitution.
Hmmm, I could argue that many employers use "profit-via-people". Everyone who works in just about any industry is selling something of themselves, whether it be skills, time, physical abilities, beauty or sex.
Because prostitution thrives on people's selfishness and excesses. There are people out there who never wanted and will never want prostitution to be illegal because such would interfere with their pleasures. I personally do not think we should encourage such selfish, unrestrained behavior.
What I think is that the attractive elite, those that are having sexual intercourse or are capable of being loved (and thus will lead to sexual intercourse eventually), want to make sure that losers like me never get to experience sex, and so institute laws against prostitution in order to prevent it, and hide that subconscious agenda under the veil of moral protection.
Since sex is genetically programmed into the human mind, even creatures such as myself have desires from time to time. The law prohibits prostitution, and society would say that visiting a prostitute is selfish. Yet, drugs that can inhibit sexual desires are unavailable to the involuntarily celibate, with doctors, having sworn their sacred oath, unwilling to dispense them. So what am I to do?
Meanwhile, every image in the media oozes of sex, women wear revealing clothing to dissipate the heat and the elite proclaim sex to be a gift of God, or biology.
If a woman were to willingly go into prostitution and it was made legal, maybe life can get a little better because at least one base need is fulfilled.
Am I selfish? Probably. I just want to experience a little bit of what normal people have.
Some people do not believe that sex should only be for marriage or with a single partner. I don't think prostitution is wrong and therefore it should be legal. This would mean more government regulation to crack down on elements associated with prostitution that are wrong (or problems), such as drug addiction, abuse, etc.
Prostitution does not break up families and marriages. Prostitutes do not lure people to have sex with them that normally wouldn't. If someone wants to have sex outside their marriage or relationship, they're going to, whether it's with a prostitute or not.
In Australia and New Zealand we have rather good welfare systems, pretty much guarenteeing that people have enough to live on (in a basic lifestyle). Many people choose to go into prostitution because there is a lot of money to be made. Some don't and are forced into it because of drug addiction or other similar problems.
People should not be punished for having consentual sex. If people choose to charge for it and pay for it, who are we to say that's wrong? Who people have sex with and the particulars are there own business.
Unfortunately, in my state, legalised prostitution hasn't been very successful. Brothels are legal under certain conditions and for some time it's been legal for a woman (I assume men as well) to work as prostitutes in their own home. Still, it's early days. I think people's views on sex need to change. It's not bad or degrading when it's chosen. Prostitutes are skilled (I'd assume) and sell a service. The only problem is with the fact that the skill and the service is sex.
I think one of the problems I have with the idea of legalized prostitution is that, if a woman can be bought, all women will have a price tag. If a co-worker makes a lewd suggestion, it's no longer sexual harassment; it's merely a business proposition.
Also to consider, what about the women (and men too) who love what they do?
There are also many women as well as men out there who sell become escorts or call girls if you will, because they enjoy what they do.
Granted, very rarely will you see a woman like this being a street walker, but in many of the high class brothelrs or escort services you will find men and women who enjoy what they do.
I have with the idea of legalized prostitution is that, if a woman can be bought, all women will have a price tag. If a co-worker makes a lewd suggestion, it's no longer sexual harassment; it's merely a business proposition.
There are many male prostitutes as well. What of the people who go to see prostitutes, doesn't that say something about them? What would people in the work place have to sat about that?
A prostitute chooses to sell, they're not simply bought. Prostitution exists now and advances in sexual harrassment laws have been made despite this. Because one women chooses to sell, doesn't mean all have their price. And it certainly doesn't give men the right to see all women as prostitutes because some choose to be. I don't see all men as, I don't know, women-beaters because some choose to be.
The legalisation of prostitution is a step forward to women's (and men's) rights, I think. That people have the right to choose what to do with their own body.
My belief is that as long as there is sin in the world there will be faults and problems in society.
I have the solution! All we have to do is outlaw organized religion. Then sin disappears. Once sin is gone, so too will the faults and problems in society go away!
See how, often, the simple solution eludes us?
What of the people who go to see prostitutes, doesn't that say something about them? What would people in the work place have to sat about that?
What I meant was, legalized prostitution would blur the lines between sexual harassment and acceptable workplace behavior. One could make all kinds of degrading comments (e.g. " I wonder how much you'd be worth...") and, theoretically, defend the behavior as something other than harassment.
Prostitution exists now and advances in sexual harrassment laws have been made despite this.
The oinly place I know of where prostitution is legal is Nevada - also known for its casinos with skimpy-dressed cocktail waitresses, Vegas showgirls, and the like. Not exactly my idea of female empowerment. I wonder what constitutes sexual harassment at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch? (A NV brothel, run by a man, in case it makes any difference.)
Yes, but prostitution is legal down here in Queensland (under certain circumstances) and you'll find we have nice tough sexual harrasement laws that continue to advance.
Despite the fact that prostitution is legal, I've only ever been sexually harrased once and that was by a boss who didn't understand what was appropriate in the workplace. Never once did he reference prostitution while sexually harrasing any of the girls who waitressed in the Cafe. He was just an idiot, but then you'll get them whether prostitution is legal or not.
Rape and murder aren't going away, either. Shouldn't we have laws to make them safer?
Well, we have laws that ban them, so that makes us safe from them?
But, more importantly, unlike rape and murder, prostitution is between consenting people. If it isn't, it would be rape and would be illegal.
True, but by legalizing it, the government is saying that it's all good and fine to view sex as merely a physical tool.
Yes, but by not legalizing it, or banning it (same thing, really) the government is saying that it's not okay to view sex as merely a physical tool. Which isn't any better than saying that it is okay.
Really, we're not trying to get into what kind of messages the government is sending. By legalizing prostitution, the government is basically saying, "You can do it. It's okay. But if you don't like it, don't get involved. That's okay too."
Yes, the government is saying that it's OKAY. It's not saying that it's great or glorious or anything.
Maybe, but as someone said after this, why not do it for free then? If they truly view it as just a physical thing they desire, they can go to parties and have sex with anyone they want. I have worked in inner-city Los Angeles with many poor women and spoken to prostitutes--as young as 12 years old!, and none of them told me they enjoy their profession. All of them hope to earn enough money so that they can go back to school, or get a "real" job, as several put it. I think prostitutes are, in a sense, all (brothel or not) "forced" into this by economic circumstance. So instead of giving up on these women, the government ought to provide jobs for them--not welfare, which would be inevitably spent on drug addictions--but more people to work with the homeless and poor and help them get what they need, try to convince them to go to homeless shelters, and if they really didn't want to do that, help them on an individual basis. I hardly think that (legalizing) the physical and emotional pains of prostitution is the final answer--we need to keep looking.
That's all and good, but what about those prostitutes that, well, do enjoy their professions? Just because you don't know any doesn't mean there aren't any, and just becaue there aren't any today doesn't mean there won't be any tomorrow.
We can help these unhappy prostitutes out if they need it. But in the meantime, we need to take a stand on prostitution itself - the practice, not just the people.
Selling your body is different then becomming someone's property.
Because when you're someone's property, you're bound to that person wherever he/she goes. You are basically his/hers. When you're a prostitute, you're doing a service. The next morning, you walk away and never see that person again.
It's like the difference between a taxi driver and a personal chauffeur.
Slavery should be legal under certain circumstances. Let's say someone is so desperate he wishes to sell himself to a slaveowner. At least he will have food, clothing, and shelter, right? The government could regulate it to make sure the slaves are treated fairly, and can even tax the industry.
Too bad we have that pesky 13th amendment. Why not, if both parties agree to it?
If both parties are consenting, then that isn't slavery anymore. The "slave" is working for the "slaveowner", except that his/her salary is in the form of food/clothing/shelter, instead of dollar bills. Why the "slave" would want that stuff when s/he can just get money and use it to buy the stuff that s/he needs to survive, is beyond me, but if s/he wants it that way that's his/her choice.
The "slave" would truly be a slave if he conferred all legal responsibilities and such to his/her master. Then that relationship would be the same as the one between a child and his/her parent(s), or between a pet and its master. As for whether or not such a practice should be legal, I can't give an
Especially with the added-on bonuses of using taxes to have clinics to prevent transmission of STD's.
i have to say that i'm always disappointed by the arguement of "hey, such-and-such should be legal. we can tax it!" do you not see that the benefits you're trying to incorporate into both legalization of all drugs and prostitution are the direct result of a problem you're partly augmenting? where is the sensibility in basically rewriting laws so that anything and everything is free, open, condoned, and welcome in society when you've got such significant problems attached to them that things are just a hedonistic mess?
if someone is a prostitute, i can't see how that's a healthy career. things aren't as innocuous as you seem to think. even if someone really likes sex, i'm seeing people equating prostitution with things like being a chauffuer or taxi driver. there's a difference between jobs that if you cannot see, i cannot explain to you. is there an emotional aspect to driving someone around in a car? does driving around in a car result in unwanted pregnancy or STD's? do you want you wife/husband or girlfriend/boyfriend to be driving other men/women around all day or night so that when you need a ride, they're all already exhausted from driving? just a practical aspect there.
look, most people who go into prostitution because they have few options, not because they really like sex and it's a great industry with a bright future. even suggesting that there are significant numbers of prostitutes who sell their bodies for any reason other than desperation is preposterous.
Prostitutes may be unhappy, but they aren't suffering, or at least how I'm definining it for the purposes of this post. If they were suffering, they wouldn't have the mental capacity to carry on.
how do you know this? have you taken a poll of prostitutes to ask if they suffer or how they feel about what they do? i'd say that being a human being means you're suffering to some degree. having the mental capacity to carry on does not equate with someone isn't suffering or engaging in self destructive behaviour.
Perhaps. So what, there aren't any rich prostitutes out there? Considering how well it pays, I'd be surprised if there weren't any.
again, you're using the arguement that money and wealth validate. would it be wise to deregulate the stock trade industry? to make insider trading legal? some people would be getting richer. but there would be no laws to prevent behaviour detrimental to the rest of us. i can't see how the arguement of how lucrative prostitution might be as a way to justify it's being made legal. lot's of things might be lucrative. it doesn't make them things which should be legal.
And isn't that a little, um, offensive? You're basically saying that "If you like being a prostitute, you're insane."
i don't se it as offensive. prostitutes weren't described as insane. you mischaracterized jaded-girl's words from "emotional problem" to "insane." and there are emotinal issues with sex. that's spot on. like i mentioned earlier, driving a car is a rather emotionless act. sex isn't. becoming comfortable enough with sex to lose the emotional aspect isn't a "job/life skill." rather, i'd call it an opportunity to start down a path towards emotional problems. a prostitute who is emotionally involved will have a hard time being a prostitute. and a person who can remove emotion from the equation can apparantly turn emotion on and off like a light. how many people do you know who can effectively do that? what kind of people are they? do they have any significant problems?
people say that prostitution is a victimless crime. it's not the same as most crimes, but it isn't acceptable, IMO. for the same reason that if i wanted to hit myself in the head with a hammer until i'm causing brain damage in public as entertainment isn't acceptable. if i passed a hat around and collected money
I don't think legalising prostitution helps the prostitutes at all. It's a bit like suggesting legalising drugs will help drug addicts, because the industry can be regulated. Flawed logic, imo. Legalised drugs are no safer for a drug addict than when they were illegal.
If they really want to help prostitutes, they should be making laws which discourage the clients. Make criminals out of the clients, not the prostitutes. They are the ones exploiting these people.
well if you say legalise the drug trade, then in theory addiction would not be criminal, and therefore people could get treatment.......further more revenue should mean a better funded addiction treatment system........i guess its based on the logic that the problem will exist regardless of its legality, so why not try and minimise the harm to the people involved.....which is an argument i personally think is valid
Kitt327: You seem to be under the assumtion that it's about exploitation.
Most of the time, when a man or a woman goes to a prostitute, it's just to get laid. To get some pleasure, no strings.
Second, what about the men and women who ENJOY selling sex? Trust me, there are many, many out there.
<< ...even suggesting that there are significant numbers of prostitutes who sell their bodies for any reason other than desperation is preposterous. >>
Think out of the box and open your mind a bit more.
While it is true that most become prostitutes for other reasons or desperation... there ARE a significant amount who sell their body for any other reason than desperation. They do it because they like it or because of the thrill or because of the power their body holds.
It is a significant number. Not by any means the majority, but large enough.
Prostitution should not be legal. It is demeaning. Most prostitutes are selling themselves because society and various other circumstances have led them to prostitution as a means of survival. These people need to be helped, trained for better jobs, and shown how to live without being reduced to a sex object.
Sex is very pleasurable and should ONLY be done within marriage. Sex is NOT a right. Those that don't get marriage, don't have sex. Period.
Promiscuous behavior leads to STDs, many of which have no cure. Unwanted pregnancies (contraceptives are not 100% guranteed) result in abortions (head over to the abortion thread to see the problems and arguements about this). Emotional damage results, not to mention physical damage. Prostitution leads to broken families with one or both partners being unfaithful. People who are divorced are nore suspetable to substance abuse. Children from divorced families are nore likely to engage in violence and teen pregnacies. The list goes on and on.
I understand that many of the above are not the direct topic of this thread, but vice leads to vice. These sorts of issues can not effectively be discussed without seeing the big picture.
I used to favour the legalisation of prostitution as a way of protecting the women involved - many of whom are either forced into it or feel they have no other way of earning money. I am more skeptical now that regulation will allow society to prevent the widespread financial and physical abuse of prostitutes. That said, I don't believe society should be criminalising those women who choose to use sex to make a living. What it should do is focus more on the social problems which force some women and children onto the streets - especially drugs.
It is a significant number. Not by any means the majority, but large enough.
large enough to outstrip the negative side of those in the majority motivation? i doubt it. sure there might be some people who really get off selling themselves. but the only prostitutes i've actually talked to (a couple used to walk up and down the street i used to work on) are in really bad shape. they were doing it because they were desperate. since i've only really talked to two who i could say might qualify as acquaintances, my firsthand knowledge is admittedly limited. and i'm not quoting any scientific studies. but i'll stand by my previous statement about the motivations of most prostitutes being desperation. to consider however many people out there who have a legitimate choice to make when it comes to prostitution or a good job with a future as more than a very limited number is to gloss the problem over. you said yourself that:
While it is true that most become prostitutes for other reasons or desperation
....so i'm simply saying that in most cases, the situation is one whereby the whole "oh, but some people really LIKE selling themselves" point is sort of moot as a quality of prostitutes in general. it's the world's oldest profession for a reason. supply and demand for sex are always there. i'm not suggesting that people who prostitute themselves are evil or bad or anything like that. but it's a problem, and like drugs, the answer is just keep fighting a losing battle that will never be won. people are going to do what they want. but that doesn't mean that you take a ,"well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em " mentality when it comes to things like prostitution. making it legal is condoning it, and that's an irresponsible stance for the government to take on this issue. no one's freedom to engage in as much premarital or noncommittal sex is being infringed upon. it's just not going to be allowed as a means to make money. i'm all for personal freedom and have ( i hope) a decent sense of liberty, but i cannot see how being a hooker is acceptable, healthy, or worthy of being legalized.