Saga Leia remembering Padme?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by RyanForder, Mar 6, 2014.

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  1. PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master

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    I agree. I'm not saying that people can't dislike the retcons or, if they don't fit with their interpretation of the films, consider them plot holes for themselves. But I don't think it's fair to generalize their point of view to the entire audience, either. For myself, Leia living with Padmé presents a number of issues. For one, I have a hard time imagining Padmé willingly giving up one child and living with the other. For another, I think this scenario presumes that Vader would either have to believe she was dead or no longer cared about her and was ignorant of the children. Vader believing Padmé is dead doesn't work for me for a variety of reasons -- chief among them being that Vader seems to be able to sense Luke a number of times throughout the film and because lines like "search your feelings, you know it to be true" indicate to me that it would have been very difficult to pull off a deception of this magnitude on a desperate, very Force-sensitive man. And I certainly can't imagine Padmé keeping Leia if she thought it would in any way put her at risk.

    Which brings us to the other possibility I mentioned: that Vader no longer cared about Padmé. In my opinion, this not only doesn't make sense, but it ruins the climax of ROTJ. If Vader didn't care about his family, why would he be willing to die for Luke? Why would he sacrifice his life and ambitions of ruling an Empire in order to save someone he barely knows when family doesn't mean anything to him?

    And, like you said, I think Lucas recognized that Anakin's story needed to end with the birth of Darth Vader. The prequels are the story of his fall. Another movie of him hunting Jedi would be pointless fluff. In my opinion, the intercutting of Vader's birth with Luke/Leia's birth and Padmé's death was perfectly done. I'm not saying everyone has to agree, but I don't think that it's bad just because it deviates from what Lucas said (but, notably, didn't film) twenty years ago.
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  2. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    Another way:

    Anakin turns midway through ROTS; his reasoning is that he learns that Padme has a fatal and incurable disease; Palpatine offers a cure.

    Sort of like what actually happened, only with logic. Anakin has a reason to believe that Padme is in danger other than a bad dream.

    Padme realizes what he has done and escapes; the Organas have the means to hide her on Alderaan. She gives birth there and the twins are separated; Bail adopts Leia. Similar to what happened on ROTS but without "losing the will to live." Padme stays on Alderaan until her inevitable death. We the audience know she will die but we don't see it happen. I have no doubt that Obi-Wan and Yoda could help Padme hide herself from Vader.

    Lucas could have, you know, planned his story in advance and stuck to it.
  3. Garrett Atkins Jedi Knight

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    There is a lot more than only one more option for it to have been done differently.

    Hell, they could have introduced a "Force Connection" between Padme and Leia, giving Leia information about how she looked like, her feelings, etc.
  4. PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm sorry anakinfan, but that really wouldn't work for me. If Anakin still loves Padmé, he's not going to give up on her just because she has a terminal disease. Her hiding with Leia on Alderaan makes no sense. Anakin would still be looking for her and I can't believe that Padmé would put her daughter in that kind of danger. Even if you believe that Padmé could hide herself from Vader (I don't buy it personally), why would she stay with her daughter and risk her discovery? To me, it doesn't make sense.

    Plus, I am a firm believer that, "the author reserves the right to have a better idea," to quote Lois McMaster Bujold. One can cause just as many problems by trying to adhere to a "plan" as can occur by not thinking far ahead enough in advance.
  5. MOC Yak Face Manager Emeritus

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    I agree with that quotation in principle, but surely the notion has to be tempered by existing elements of a story which has already been told.
    Last edited by MOC Yak Face, Mar 9, 2014
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  6. Samuel Vimes Jedi Master

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    But if Padme lives and Anakin wants to track her down and can sense her. Then she is in danger and so is Leia. If she is found and Anakin/Palpatine wants to know where her children are, as long as she knows where they are, they are in danger. I could see Palpatine try to torture or otherwise draw the information from her. So her not being with Leia doesn't help.

    Then for this to work she would have to be in the dark where the children are and even that might not help. If Bail was there and she knows it, Palpatine can get that from her and track Leia down that way.
    So simply her being alive could put the children in danger so then being with Leia isn't much of an added risk.

    As obssesed Anakin is with Padme, I agree he would try to find her if he thought she was alive.
    I could see it working that her death is faked, Anakin thinks he killed her. Leia is presented as Bail's child and Padme assumes a new identity in his household. The empire isn't as strong as it will later get and doesn't have a presence on Alderaan. So Bail could keep her reasonably safe there.
    Palpatine and Vader thinks she is dead and her children with her and takes no interest in Bail's new child or his household staff.

    As AotC and RotS plays out, I do think her dying onscreen makes the most sense. Heck, I knew after AotC that Padme would die in the next film and that would have a big impact on Anakin.

    It was possible to maintain continuity with the OT and then the twins could have been born either during ep II or between ep II and III and in ep III Luke/Leia is around three years old.
    Which I believe was Lucas intent at one point. I recall reading some Lucas quote that Luke is 2-3 years old in ep III. Lucas obviously changed his mind and he is free to do that. I just think it is possible to have the birth occur earlier, have Leia live with Padme for a few years and still have a good, dramatic story. Which would have been better is kind of hard to say as it is hard to compare a finsihed story with a story that doesn't really exist.
    I simply won't say that any version different from the one we got MUST be inferior.

    As for the author having a better idea, sure. But then the author has to be prepared for questions from the audience and their questions/critiscism is totally valid. If you establish one thing and then alter it to something else, people might notice.
    Ex LOST, the series introduces a whole of mysteries and questions that never get answered and things are changed many times. And some in the audience found that frustrating. Or an even worse example, the TV-series, The Event, that changed things around almost every episode and characters had altered motivations time and again. I kept watching it because it became so bad it was almost funny.

    Lastly, given Lucas habit of altering the older films in order to manitain continuity then the logical apporach is to remove or alter this scene.
    Get rid of Luke's question and have them talk about Vader and all that that. Continuity preserved.
    In ANH Vader is said to have killed Luke's father but that was later changed to him being Luke's father. But that retcon was adressed in the film and we got an explanation.

    With this, by keeping it in there, you have a plot hole. A character has a memory that logically she should not have. And no explanation is given in the films. So some have made up a power and yes it is made up. And then made up rules about this made up power in order to explain the further plot hole this made up power creates.

    The Force giving memories to people isn't an established power. You can use to see things in visions or dreams. But that isn't the same as giving memories to people. At best you have a memory of the dream or vision, nothing more. A TV enables you to see the past or the present, but any memories it gives you are just that, you watching TV. Watching a documentary of ancient Rome won't give you memories that makes you think you lived in ancient Rome.
    As for the "rules" about what triggers "Force visions". The films establish no real frame work or anything that enables us to work out how these things function.
    The only thing we do know is that Anakin and Luke had visions of people that they knew and who were important to them. Neither Luke nor Leia knew their mother and she didn't seem very important to either of them. Luke was interested in his father but that was not enough to give him visions.
    And lastly but very importantly, both Luke and Anakin knew that these were dreams/visions, not memories.

    So as explanations go, it doesn't work. A better one is Bail showing Leia pictures of Padme and telling her about her mother. Bail could tell Leia a lie about when her mother died and Leia believed it. Like Luke at first believed the lies Owen told about his father.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
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  7. DRush76 Jedi Master

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    Was this established in a book or movie?



    Vader first laid eyes upon Luke, seconds after Obi-Wan's death aboard the Death Star. I don't recall him sensing anything about his son, other than the sight of the latter screaming in despair and firing at the stormtroopers, before boarding the Falcon. The first time Vader really sensed Luke was when the latter was using the Force to destroy the Death Star during the Battle of Bespin.




    That does not work for me. It would still require Padme to give up Luke to the Lars, while staying with Leia. I don't see Padme doing that. She would still be giving up one offspring, while staying with the other.



    Why is it that we never see Leia grieving over the destruction of Alderaan and her step parents on film . . . period? Never. Instead, we've seen her consoling Luke aboard the Falcon, who is grieving over Obi-Wan's death. And yeah . . . Leia can be a drama queen.
    Last edited by DRush76, Mar 10, 2014
  8. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    For a long time this didn't work for me at all. RotJ is the sole film that even hints Leia is Force-Sensitive. In later years I either figured it was yet another unexplained inconsistency within the storytelling or an unnamed Force ability.
  9. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Master

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    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    Anakin doesn't have any reason to believe Padme is in danger? He had a vision of the future. You know, the exact same kind of vision he had before his mother was murdered. Anakin was wrong to sacrifice everything in an attempt to prevent the vision from becoming reality, and in fact this is a major lesson of the saga, but to dismiss it as nothing more than a bad dream?

    And having the fate of one of the main characters of the saga die off-screen between movies would have been pretty unsatisfying IMO. And we all know Lucas changed his mind. We know. Some of us just don't hold that against him as a matter of course.


    Not true. Luke communicates to Leia through the Force in TESB. This could just be a matter of them sharing a deep connection to each other a la Anakin and Padme in RotS, but in hindsight it could also be a hint that Leia is also Force-sensitive.


    They could have, but it would have been a needless and superfluous scene. Other scenes in the saga tell us all we need to know to figure out what happened. In fact, I feel most people who noticed the discrepancy grasped the explanation instinctively. It's just that some of those people decided it was stupid and rejected it.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Mar 10, 2014
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  10. Firmus Jagdon Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 7, 2013
    star 1
    Thats exactly how she reemmbers her. Yoda said it in Empire, "old friends long gone,... remembered." or something lik that..Luke saw the future, why is it so hard to accept Leia was imprinted with her mothers images, feelings..?
    People are being really thick about this. Vader knows when Obi Wan is around. Luke knows when Vader is near. Ben felt it when Alderraan was blown up. Vader felt Luke's presence from the moment he tried to blow up his X-wing... and Luke talked to Ben many times after his death... through the Force...
    Yoda talks to Qui Gon after he died now- playing by the same rules, Lucas says Leai remembers her mother via the Force. Just because we cant' do it in our world doesn't make it stupid or lame they can do it in the fake one. As stated, its already been set up.
    It's set up three times in the orignials that Leia is slightly Force sensitve, when she communicates with Luke at the bottom of cloud city. Before the Falcon shows up. Then Luke says she does ahve the power... after he tells her they are siblings... not hard to figure out folks...Luke talked to Ben several times after he died through the force, why couldn't Leia remember her mother? Because people don't want to, it's icky.
    it's not out of the blue or random, its set up twice in the original flicks...pay attention please.
    Last edited by Firmus Jagdon, Mar 10, 2014
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  11. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

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    Okay, I forgot but my point remains.
  12. Samnz Jedi Master

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    The overall problem here is that Lucas just didn't develop the character of Padmé in the 80s. She is ignored for the most part in the OT, and even the scene in ROTJ is so vague. There are 2-3 explanations that are perfectly reasonable, PiettsHat flawlessly erlaborated on one of them.
    Contrary to the other so-called "inconsistencies" (Obi-Wan's teacher etc.), though, I can see why some people won't accept the explanation. The explanation is there and absolutely valid, but I can't expect one-time-viewers to connect all the dots and draw that conclusion.

    I have to admit your idea is not that bad. I still find it a bit holey, though.

    I mean to say if the "Organas have the means to hide her on Alderaan", why don't they hide Padmé, Luke and Leia altogether? Why does Padmé decide to give one baby away and stay with the other? Assumed there is a logical reason, why does she give Luke away and not Leia? "Girls to a palace, boys to farm" is not a reason. The Organas "adopting" two unrelated babies would have been a lot less "conspicuous", actually , since Anakin/Vader certainly didn't anticipate twins and would have been looking for the sudden appearance of a child.
    And why wouldn't Vader search Alderaan at first, anyway? Even in the OT context alone, the Organas were linked to the Jedi and Padmé's children would happen to be the Jedi's only hope.
    All things considered, you'd have to give a logical answer to all these questions within about 2 minutes of screentime. I doubt you'd convince me, personally, and others.

    Independently: Your version of Padmé's death could have been satisfactory dramatically, imo, if the movies had been made in chronological order. But given the OT is set in stone, I think it would have been highly unsatisfactory to leave Padmé in ROTS, completey ignore her in ANH and TESB (not even a single word about her) and then hastily wrap her up in a few words in ROTJ. Unworthy.

    Your alternative also would have ruined the essece of ROTS, but that's another topic and we won't agree.

    On the whole, I think there was no perfect seolution to the "mother dilemma". Either alternative leads to certains problems and logical challenges.
    I'm glad Lucas decided to give us a beautiful birth-and-death scene instead of sticking to a very vague scene in ROTJ that wasn't even very logical on its own.
    Last edited by Samnz, Mar 10, 2014
  13. Firmus Jagdon Jedi Youngling

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    star 1
    Not made up Yoda talked about seeing dead friends through the Force. Yoda said it in Empire, "old friends long gone,... remembered." or something lik that...and don't compare this television. One is fake the the is real.
  14. Firmus Jagdon Jedi Youngling

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    Wrong. Empire when Luke is at the bottom of Cloud City.
  15. Firmus Jagdon Jedi Youngling

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  16. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    Greater chance for survival for both kids trumps maternal emotions. I can see her doing it. Arbitrarily, no, but ensuring a greater chance that both kids will survive is a pretty good reason.

    Why did we need to see that? I don't need a lot of emo'ing in my Star Wars. The Lars garage scene worked for me but I don't need every character behaving that way.


    Padme was not a slave on a planet with no laws. She was a high-ranking government official with access to the best medical care, and per the ROTS novelization, her medical droid had told her she was perfectly healthy.

    Anakin had no logical reason to believe she was in danger, and illogical reasons aren't worth taking seriously.
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    In the films, she wasn't developed. However, Lucas did come up with various bits of backstory, especially during the story meetings for ROTJ, when he and Kasdan hammered out Anakin and Obi-wan's backstory. The details of what she did with her life weren't there, but that they were together. They had lived on one world and he went off to fight, but he was gone for a long stretch which is why he didn't know about the children. And he was turning evil as a result of his time with Palpatine. Obi-wan learned of the betrayal from him and managed to make it to the Skywalker home where he took them off with Bail to hide. This basic backstory was then turned into the dialogue found in the commercial release of the screenplay and in the novelization.

    Yet, he still had his visions of her death and the last time he ignored them, he paid a terrible price for it. Hence his obsession. A Jedi is trained to trust their feelings and to trust the Force.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Mar 10, 2014
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Master

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    This post is a very good summation of the issues Lucas was facing and the probable reasons he made the choices he did. All things considered, the story just plain worked better this way. Ironically, it's the people who are against the way things were done who are ignoring the needs of the story.


    It doesn't matter. He had a premonitory vision. The last time that happened, the vision came true. He has Jedi powers. He can see the future.

    And yes, it did turn out that Anakin was wrong. Anakin's reasons for falling to the dark side weren't perfectly logical. That's because there are no perfectly logical reasons to become evil. If there were, society would be in way more trouble than it is.
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  19. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Yup:

    The question took her totally by surprise. She'd always felt so close to her adoptive parents, it was as if they were her real parents. She almost never thought of her real mother - that was like a dream.
    Yet now Luke's question made her start. Flashes from her infancy assaulted her - distorted images of running ... a beautifal woman ... hiding in a trunk. The fragments threatened to overwhelm her with emotion.
    "Yes," she said, pausing to regain her composure. "Just a little bit. She died when I was very young."


    ...

    "The Organa family was high-born and politically quite powerful in that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage - no-one knew she'd been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power, since Alderaan had long been a democracy. Even so, the family continued to be politically powerful, and Leia, following in her foster father's path, became a senator as well. That's not all she became, of course - she became the leader of her cell in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she was a vital link for getting information to the Rebel cause.

    That's what she was doing when her path crossed yours - for her foster parents had always told her to contact me on Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate."
  20. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of CT, SW Saga and Lucasfilm Ltd

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    The obsession and the lack of any sort of rational thought--"My vision of my mother dying on a lawless planet came true because she was kidnapped and beaten by thugs, therefore my vision of my wife dying in childbirth will come true because I said so, although unlike my mother, she is in no actual danger"--is what makes Anakin a ****ing idiot.

    I don't know what the "needs of the story" were other than to mesh with the OT, provide the "seamless transition" that Lucas said at the time that he wanted.

    Then he seemed more concerned about writing a damn opera than providing a seamless transition to the OT.
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  21. Cryogenic Force Ghost

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    Not going to address all this -- but wanted to clear a couple of things up...

    There is some truth in that, but there is a compulsion in human beings to seek explanations for things, even when an explanation isn't needed or might be horribly simplistic.

    That, of course, and the fact that fans like to celebrate the object of their desire by carving it up like a turkey, even when -- again -- it's not really needed. These things are always, to a degree, surplus to requirements.

    I'm aware of what the MF was modelled after. I was quoting someone from another board. He didn't like Star Wars and joked that it was all about a bunch of people flying around in egg boxes. My guess is that was referring to, or struck by, the look of the first ship that passes by camera in the original film, which is the rebel blockade runner, which has engines that look a bit like the inside of an egg box. He might have meant it as a (light-hearted) insult, but that tactility of Star Wars is also part of its charm.

    Clothing choices an inconsistency? Nah, that's your lingo. I was attempting to illustrate that Star Wars, when looked at head-on, is a bit goofy and weird. Again, part of the charm, but some people might find it ridiculous or clamour -- if only facetiously -- for explanation. Brian De Palma ribbed George Lucas something rotten after the rough-cut screening of the original film, asking questions like, "What were those Danish rolls doing in the princesses' ears?"

    A lot of Star Wars is presented very matter-of-factly, even with all the whimsy and self-referentiality happening all around. Your problem with the Luke-Leia memory discrepancy / disparity is only one of a million pieces in a much larger jigsaw. Star Wars is a grand adventure, a farce, and a kitschy, operatic allegory. To paraphrase Kubrick, is Lucas meant to sit there and tell us why the Mona Lisa is smiling? And have you noticed how, on the Blu-ray, Kamino is the one prequel planet missing from the behind-the-scenes "planets" feature? Lucas creates holes and contradictions on purpose. They're meant to get your mind whirring.

    Actually, I don't want to pick apart ANH or any of the films that way.

    Not sure what gave you that impression. I just drafted up a quick, fun list. It was only meant to show that all the films can be questioned and said to have "plot holes" (and / or bumpy spots).

    Again, subjective.

    I think ROTS is plenty entertaining, personally -- including the way the twins are born and who eventually has whatever insight or limitation (to me, this shows that Luke and Leia are different people, if bound by a common origin).

    That's the story, to me. And I love it.
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  22. DRush76 Jedi Master

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    Why on earth would Padme give up one child and keep (or stay near) the other? If she really wanted the twins safe, while still alive . . . she would give up BOTH twins. Both of them. Not give up one and stay with the other. That is sick. I could just imagine Luke wondering why Padme gave him up, but not Leia.

    But since Lucas allowed Leia to ramble on about some vague memories of Padme in ROTJ, he probably had no choice but to bump off Padme following the twins' births and hope that Leia's memories could be Force related.




    Anakin was being emotional and irrational. Which is normal, by the way. I think human beings . . . or sentient beings are really capable of rational thought after the fact. Otherwise, we are a bunch of irrational and emotionally messy beings, whether we want to admit it or not. And since we are, what is this demand that fictional characters (especially the protagonists) always do, say or feel the right thing, when we're incapable of doing so in real life? So that we can feed off of our illusions? Where is the story in that?
    Last edited by DRush76, Mar 10, 2014
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  23. Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost

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    No, that's pretty much the definition of being rational.

    Had a vision of my mother dying ----> mother died.
    Have a vision of my wife dying ----> fill in the blank.

    The inconsistent answer would be "no worries, nothing will happen".
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  24. The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Master

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    He saw the future. As far as he was concerned, some way or another, it was going to happen, unless he did something to stop it. The last time he had a vision exactly like this one, he did nothing to stop it, and it came true. The fact that he doesn't know how, or why, or when this new vision is going to happen just makes it scarier and him more desperate. And I mean, it did end up happening.

    Anakin is kind of an idiot. But then, I've never met a human being in my life who wasn't kind of an idiot.


    And in the first case, if he had acted on his vision sooner, there's a good chance he actually could have saved his mother. That's the part that's got to gnaw at him. He's not going to sit on his hands again and abdicate his responsibility toward the ones he loves, hoping that this time his dream was just a dream. Yeah, just roll the dice, Anakin. I mean, Padme dying in childbirth seems pretty unlikely, doesn't it? Of course, if you're wrong, Padme is dead forever, but eh.
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  25. Samuel Vimes Jedi Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    No it is made up because the ability to see things through the Force =/= the Force giving you childhood memories that you never had.
    You can turn on the TV and wach a film about ancient Rome but that does not give you childhood memories of growing up in ancient Rome

    Every person that we know has seen things through the Force refer to them as visions or dreams, not memories. Leia REMEMBERS her mother. What she looked like, how she was overall like and how she was like TO her. Leia remebers her mother being kind TO her, that sort of requiers Leia to actually be present when her mother is being kind to her.

    If Leia saw her own birth in a Force visions that would not explain what she says in RotJ. Padme was in pain and dying, not kind and yet sad. If she had Force visions of Padme's whole life that would also not explain her lines because she was not present there and her mother was never kind to her as she did not exist yet.

    That implies nothing of the sort. Luke reaches out and speaks in Leia's mind, Leia just listens. With telepathy, normally the telepath is the one who speaks in other persons mind, the one who is spoken to does not need to be a telepath. In the X-Men films, Xavier speaks in Logans mind but that doesn't make Logan a telepath.
    Luke is the one who is doing the work here, he speaks to Leia. Had Leia sensed Luke all on her own that could have been something but that didn't happen.
    Who else could Luke have reached out to? Han is frozen, he doesn't know Lando, R2 and C3PO are out and Chewie would just look silly.

    There is no established rule in SW that mind to mind contact ONLY works if both are Force sensitive.
    Why would such a limitation exist? It would make telepathy a very limited power as it can ONLY be used between Force senitives.
    Add to this, Leia was made Luke's sister when RotJ was made, not before.
    So when ESB was made she clearly wasn't. You had scenes that were filmed but later cut where the two are expressing quite strong feelings towards each other.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Mar 11, 2014
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