Discussion Less CGI in EP7: and how it may change the look of Sci-Fi movies for the rest of the decade.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by L0RD VADER, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    True, but to be fair, neither side of the PT argument usually use many facts, because it's all based on how they FEEL. People need to remember to be mindful of their feelings.
  2. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    I do hope the ST does influence other films to use more miniatures and "old school fx" as a result of it using them. However, the PT used them too.

    People may not realize this, but Revenge of the Sith, yes, one of those dreaded, CG drenched, pixelated, digital monstrosities, had the largest ILM model crew on any film ever. Nearly 100 model makers. And they built and shot small models, big models.

    You can blame many movies for the lack of models and going too far in CG. But, IMHO, the PT is not to blame for that. Yes, some of the execution of CG could have been better in some cases. But, they did use models and miniatures and involve model makers in the industry to a larger extent than ever before.

    edit: Ideally, I would love to see CG animation used for the bigger Davey Jones-ish characters is applicable and animatronic ones for background characters, along with makeup fx and masks.

    But they did that for the PT too.

    There were very few techniques the PT didn't use. I think maybe some were complaining about too many fx overall. I think the way the films were shot in front of blue and green screens should be less and they should shoot more on location. And then they can enhance those with fx.

    But it's not like they didnt do that with the PT. It's more about the ratio.
    Last edited by ShaneP, Jul 31, 2013
  3. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    You are correct.
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  4. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    I just wont let any attempts to recast or revise history with the PT as that they were all-CG while the ST will go back to an old way of doing things.

    No one seriously believes they will go back to optical compositing, for one. They will use models and miniatures and makeup and animatronic characters.

    Well, so did the PT. You can criticize the PT for many things, but you cannot change the fact the PT used some of the oldest tricks in the book, including rod puppetry for 3PO.
  5. Jedirush2112 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2013
    star 3
    Sorry there but The Avengers worked for just about everyone ...well maybe except you!
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  6. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Someone hand me a Q-tip
    [IMG]
  7. PSJ Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2006
    The special/visual effects in the prequels were outstanding... If I have any issue, it's that TPM pushed the envelope so much that it made it possible for most movies to contain wall to wall special effects... and led to effects driven effects sequences being needlessly longer - to the point where movies become saturated and drama is actually lost. Still, I always thought the PT (mostly) used the effects brilliantly. I'm sure ep VII will be more like the new Star Trek films in terms of CGI and location/sets ratio.
  8. topgoalscorer_no11 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    I actually thought that TPM had better effects than AotC. RotS was pretty stunning, really. But the lightsabers were better in TPM.

    ANH has aged beautifully - the sets, such as the Death Star, Mos Eisley, still look great, and more essentially 'Star Wars' than anything in the Prequels.

    Yes, some of the space stuff has aged badly - but I still have to suspend my disbelief more for Geonosis than the final attack on the Death Star.

    AotC is just everything that's wrong with the world...
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  9. Visivious Drakarn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2013
    star 2
    Yes, but they weren't very imaginitive, were they? I mean, all the exotic, alien surroundings in the OT were Earth-like: deserts, snow, forests, swamps, caves. The only alien environments were indoor areas, and that was just on few occasions. Just like Star Trek, all the locations were Earth-like and all the aliens were like humans. That's not very convincing when you're making an SF movie.

    In some ways OT has aged better, in other the PT.

    If it comes to, let's say, another PT-like droid army and they decide to create 2000 real, full-size droids, i'l support that. If it comes to another stormtrooper-like army and they decide to make another 2000 suits, let them be. But if they decide to make just a couple of droids or army suits and the rest make with CGI, then they're just fooling us.
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  10. Jedirush2112 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2013
    star 3
    I'm sure that JJ will just pick up the ball where ROTS left off or more probable Star Trek: Into Darkness and go from there. Star Wars was always on the leading edge of technology. They aren't going to turn back time now. They might not develop new technology but they will perfect what's available. If there is one certainty is that Star Wars Episode VII will look perfectly stunning!

    And hopefully lens flare free!

    [face_nail_biting]
    Last edited by Jedirush2112, Aug 1, 2013
  11. Lord TW Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 2
    ShaneP's comment is that there is a false perception that the PT was "all" CGI, but that it is untrue because the PT had special sets, too. But that is not the point being discussed, or that I am making.

    My point is that the PT relied TOO MUCH on CGI, and it is most frustratingly evident from the moment Obi-Wan lands on Geonosis through the entire battle. It just looks fake.

    Remember how Lucasfilm prided itself on the fact that "every scene in the movie has at least some CGI"? Well...it shows. And it just doesn't look natural, to me. So I prefer the OT look.
  12. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Compositing, Lord TW. No one wants to go back to optical compositing. Also, even pure CG creations like the gorgeous Taun We use all photographic elements for their texturing.
    Count Yubnub and Darth Chiznuk like this.
  13. DARTH_BELO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    I'm all for a nice mix of CGI and actual tangible sets and models, I think in certain places they have their value, (in movies like the Dark Knight Trilogy for example) they can serve a great purpose and make things look awesome...but I think that this constant desire to go backwards with special-effects instead of progressing forward into the future with new technologies is Not the way to go. I know some people aren't too fond of CGI, but let's face it-CGI is the future of moviemaking, and it will only go forward from there, whether we like it or not...kind of like 3-D; it's not going away.

    As far as Coruscant, I think that it would be Completely unnecessary to insist on having a stationary model for the cityscape, instead of using CGI. the PT used CGI for Coruscant throughout all three episodes, and it looked breathtaking all the way through! Theres no Reason at all to change that method, just for the sake of changing it-it is just fine as it is. There are actually a lot of examples of that in the PT. the clone facility on Kamino, for example: I can't imagine that looking better!
    Also the entire pod race sequence, nighttime Speeder chase in Coruscant, Mustafar, etc...
    Last edited by DARTH_BELO, Aug 1, 2013
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  14. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    I stated in one of my posts above that there were those here asserting not that the PT was all-CG but that there was too much of it and fx overall. So I considered your point in my counter.

    It's a fair argument. The ratio is what you want changed.
  15. Lord TW Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 2
    @ShaneP: Correct. To be fair, I don't mind CGI if it is done right and looks real. For example, I thought ROTS looked awesome throughout. AOTC looked rushed.

    @FRAGWAGON: maybe I'm dense, but I'm not sure of your point. In any event, I agree: Taun We looked great. Which makes the Geonosis sequence look even worse. And frankly, watch the Kamino sequence again. The water looks fake.

    Just looks like they crammed too much into AOTC.
    Last edited by Lord TW, Aug 1, 2013
  16. Sandtrooper92 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 2
    The field battle of Naboo is when I quickly lost my fascination with CGI. It looked horrrible and I fast forward through the scene every time. While I am not sure that Return of the King or Saving Private Ryan translate to Star Wars, those were two movies where I respected the CGI. I wouldn't say every scene of CGI in Lord of the Rings was visually appealing, but it wasn't the strange artificial look of the Gungan battle.
  17. TtheForceHurts Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2010
    star 4
    In preparation for the CEII me and my friends (all born in the late 70's) have watched all 6 movies in sequence on Bluray and we were astounded how bad some of the CGI in EP I and II (and a lot of the SE additions to the OT) looked. The most fake looking scenes were: the Gungan battle, the whole Geonosis chapter, the multitude of CGI podracer pilots, Sy Snootles and every creature that is ridden by someone (Eopies, Reek, that Fataxx thing on Naboo, Rontos, Dewbacks), especially the Anakin riding the Reek scene is weird, because the size of the Reek changes in the different shots... and I still think the Rancor looks more real in most shots thatn any beast in the PT...[face_laugh]
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  18. Graphic Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 2
    Imagine the first Teaser of Episoe VII:

    Just short Behind the Scene Cuts from the Sets, the Costumes some Action-Scenes and a lot of Probs and Ship Models!
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  19. StoneRiver Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2004
    star 4
  20. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    Hey, it's up to Mods to lock repetitive/redundant threads not us.

    Which was largely fixed by the Special Editions. The only dated part now really is the fight between Vader & Obi Wan and Jabba at the docking bay.

    Which adds to the argument. The best Jabba we've ever had in the Saga is the one in ROTJ, which was a big puppet manned by several people. The CG ones from TPM & ANH look crappy in comparison.

    But CGI has done good things for ANH - The Dewbacks look good, Mos Eisley was expanded, the landspeeder now doesn't look like a car with a weird orange blob at the bottom. Plus the Death Star Assault is better with the enhanced sounds and moving pilots and whatnot.
    Last edited by SithLordDarthRichie, Aug 2, 2013
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  21. The Hellhammer Grand Judicator of the New Film Territories

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    One does not exclude the other. You can have great CGI and great practical effects as well.
    It does sound fairly obvious, but the focus has mostly been on full on CGI in the last decade or so. The reason for that is that it was still a sort of new, growing and developing way of making movies. Now that the fascination with CGI has largely passed, I think that both moviemakers and audiences would prefer to have a good mix of the two.

    I'm someone who stands for the flexible approach in doing anything, use whatever tools and materials get the job done in order to get best results. If it's easier to use CGI for a scene, but a practical effect would give a better result in the final cut - I'd go for the practical any day of the week. If there's little to no difference, sure, CGI all you want. If it's only possible as CGI, well...then that's a no brainer really.

    Point is - I couldn't care less if it's all practical, all CGI or a shuffle of both. As long as the final result is a quality product, let them use any tools they see fit.
  22. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5

    I've always wondered why they used multicolored Q-tips for this when almost all the people on Tatooine wore earth tones.
  23. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    What do you mean...most of the people in the Jundland Wastes, or most of the people in Mos Espa?
  24. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5
    I don't remember seeing colors anywhere on Tatooine. Certainly not bright blues and greens.
  25. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    It's a longshot, but you might understand soon if you're open to it.