ST Less is More

More is more! I want more stuff because I'm 'murican!

 

LOL - PT bashing reaches and all time low when one trys to argue that the Ugnaught's are realised in a more unique and individual way that prequel trilogy aliens. I'm also told that the weather was better when the OT first came out and that "you could tell what they were singing" in the popular music of the day too. You old farts...

 

Less is more is a good idea.

In the PT I guess the reasoning was to show us the Jedi at the height of their power so we'd feel bad as they started to get knocked off after Palpatine revealed himself as a Sith and took Anakin as his apprentice. In my mind it would be better if Luke only trains a few, and for those few to be unique and engaging. I think the Sith rule should stand, only two.

 

In response to the OP...

I agree to a certain extent. Logically, of course there were thousands of Jedi in the PT. It was specifically about their height. And going by the same *logic*, they're all mostly dead by the OT.

However, there's one thing the OP said I wholeheartedly disagree with. I don't think Abrams will want the ST to feel like the OT. I don't think we want it to. I'd think we prefer it to feel like... the ST. Why can't it have its own feel and style just like the other two, while still maintaining the same core feel? Just... like the other two

 

I really think that is exactly how Lucas's mind works.

 

We really can't know what's going on in Lucas's mind. Lucas knows Lucas.

 

Supersize me, Sally Ann.

 

As far as any story goes too much information can really sink a viewers attention. Sensory overload!!!

 

We call it "overdetermination" in literary theory. Or: semiotic overload. It's true that the human mind can't focus on too much at a time, so it could be that the PT at times may have gone too far in favor of excessive imagery at the cost of character and story. Even Lucas admits as much in TPM documentary The Beginning.

Less can also be too little as well. Sometimes minimalism can withhold too much and be just as confusing as maximalism.

 

That's a tad too simplistic... because if that were true The Avengers, or Iron Man wouldn't be so popular - and they throw tons more explosions, rockets and noise at the screen than any of the Star Wars films. Also, re. Lucas' comments in the TPM Documentary - Lucas isn't commenting on 'imagery' and does not say "I've gone to far in favour of excessive imagery". His concern is that the narrative within the movie is complex and a challenge for the audience to follow - specifically in relation to how the story jumps from one location/scene to another etc. Too much story and too much need for exposition, which I (as I'm sure do you) would happen to to agree with... but it's not about 'too much imagery' or 'not enough story'.

 

Well, at the end of the doc he is talking about "he may have gone too far" when it comes to the end of the film, and too many external plot aspects (Anakin and R2, Obi and Maul, Jar Jar and Droids, Padme and Viceroy) with different tones going on at the same time that affect the overall tone. Overload (or underload) can happen with any aspect of a film. The editor says something like, within 90 seconds the tone shifts so radically from scene to scene the viewer doesn't know what to make of it.

As for some of films you mention, I would just suggest that they're probably balancing plot, character, and imagery better than the PT did at times. Iron Man 1 and 3 for sure -- there was a very coherent character arc there going on that was easy to follow. I think you can have a ton of explosions, for example, as long as the viewer is still able to keep up with what's going on. In the battle scenes of AOTC and ROTS, there's so much to look at it's pretty difficult to focus on one or two things. On the one hand, Lucas is obviously trying to achieve a certain effect here: the chaos of a high tech war. However, he's so successful at that particular effect, it clouds the viewers ability too keep up with what's going on.

 

I don't think the problem is with the visuals. I have not heard anyone complain about too much happening on the screen at any given time during the big battles. They are meant to convey the confusion and chaos of every battle and I think they succeed at that without alienating the viewer. No matter what scene it is, I always found it very easy to find where we were, who was where, who were we following and what their destination was - and to be honest, so has everyone I have ever discussed those movies with.

I would agree with the position that the problems lie more in the story and overall atmosphere and pacing than with specific scenes. Some things we are just asked to take for granted, without an appropriate amount of time (at least as far as I'm concerned) being spent on actually showing us. Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship, Anakin's extraordinary abilities and the fall to the dark side itself. The ideas behind those are great, but the execution, I find somewhat lacking. That's where we needed more. I think we needed less in the department of connecting every single dot. There was no need to have Anakin build 3PO, for example.

The OT is a different overall context. We are told Luke is a great pilot and we see it at the first chance he is given an opportunity to show us his skills - and that happens to be the final Death Star battle. Anakin, on the other hand, had quite a bit more opportunities to show his skills in the movies, which we were not really shown. That is one case of going by the less is more idea that does not really work well. Such crucial things should get screentime.

On the other hand, ST will find it's own rhytm and pacing. That will largely depend on the story and the overall situation in the galaxy. Are there many Jedi? Is there peace? Is the Empire still around? Episode 7 can be a "smaller", more personal story. One that introduces us to characters, where the battles and chaos will be saved for special occassions. Episodes 8 and 9 can escalate whatever conflict there will be and intensify their pace. It is really just a wild guess, that depends on how they treat the whole situation in GFFA. It all depends on the wider context. If it makes sense to have a bunch of Jedi and Sith running around by the time of Episode 8, I have no problems with that. If it's just Luke and his two young nephews or a son - that's fine too.

 

I think you're right that sometimes we needed more in the PT. I'm definitely not less is always more; sometimes it's just less.

Here's what I mean by so much stuff going on in the shot that you have no idea what's going on. Opening of ROTS: who's winning, who's losing? I have no idea. There's too much stuff everywhere to know. Hence, no tension, only confusion.

How does Anakin know where to find Dooku and Grievous in all that chaos? We aren't told (too little) because the director is more interested in showing us a lot of stuff going on (these things work together to create epistemological gaps).

Same thing in the AOTC battle. Who is winning? The clones? I don't know. Are the droids winning? I don't know. No one tells us (too little) and the images are too overpacked to tell (too much). Lots of things are happening, but to what effect you have little idea.

 

Yep - as I said, I agree that there's too much story/plot going on in TPM. However, from a visual perspective, I think TPM is pretty bloody marvelous. I think it's also telling that Lucas understands/acknowledges that it may be a challenge for audiences.

Well I agree in that the films I mentioned are, IMHO, much simpler and have less to say. But they are not better... certainly not for me anyhows. The action in AOTC (specifically the battle of Geonosis) is far richer than the action in Iron Man for example... again in my opinion. Certainly Iron Man is more successful in bringing a certain sense of realism to events, but I think that's largely by default in that it's set on present day Earth. I much prefer Burton's Batman to the plethora of modern superhero movies, as a piece of cinematic art, but I understand that modern audiences don't particularly warm to these heavy fantastical/imaginary elements as much as previous audiences.

 

You could say the same thing about some of the battles in the OT though. Who is winning when the TIE's attack the X-Wings in ANH? Can you tell right away if the Ewoks or Stromtroopers are winning?

I think when we see the battles in AotC and RotS, there isn't a winner. The two sides are still battling it out. And Anakin and Obi-Wan do say they heading towards Grevious's ship. If they want to find Grevious, going to his ship is probably a good starting place.

 

How did they know which ship was which? In all of that chaos, they just act like it's not an issue. Why isn't it an issue?

Anyway, I understand a lot of this stuff is personal taste.

But I will say I was never confused about which way the battle was going in the OT. Even if you couldn't tell by the images alone, the characters reactions let you know.

Also, to defend the PT: I think Lucas was going for the effect of chaos. But this is a challenging effect to manage if you're successful at it. I will admit to loving the look of the battle. Every minute of it I enjoy on a visual level. However, I don't feel any tension in the PT battles. Part of this is not knowing if the Clones are losing (ok, I feel some tension when Jedi are dropping in the area left and right), but part of this is also the characters aren't helping me to know how to feel about the battle.

 

I always loved the opening space battle of ROTS. Such a great way to open a movie.

 

Devils advocate here, but by not knowing who's winning a battle, would that not actually create tension? You don't know who's gonna win so you're on the edge of your seat waiting to find out? But I suppose it's about the context in which the battle is set. The AotC battle I would say adds to the tension not knowing what's going on, whereas the RotS battle is more a backdrop for the story of the rescue of the chancellor.

Overall, I would say there are many great points raised here, and it's not as black and white as less is more, more is less, less is less, more is more... and it's more about, as has been mentioned, finding the balance.

 

[quote="Dra---, post: 51063740, member: 1376947"

How did they know which ship was which? In all of that chaos, they just act like it's not an issue. Why isn't it an issue?

Anyway, I understand a lot of this stuff is personal taste.

But I will say I was never confused about which way the battle was going in the OT. Even if you couldn't tell by the images alone, the characters reactions let you know.

Also, to defend the PT: I think Lucas was going for the effect of chaos. But this is a challenging effect to manage if you're successful at it. I will admit to loving the look of the battle. Every minute of it I enjoy on a visual level. However, I don't feel any tension in the PT battles. Part of this is not knowing if the Clones are losing (ok, I feel some tension when Jedi are dropping in the area left and right), but part of this is also the characters aren't helping me to know how to feel about the battle.[/quote]


I would guess they knew which ship by the name........ We know ships can tell what ship is which is Star Wars.

Part of the reason for the tension is also that we know who wins in the PT. Who know who lives and dies.

And I agree with some of the people saying sometimes Less isn't More. I wasn't trying to say Less is Always More, just in the case of the Jedi and characters being Jedi.

 

Battles aren't such a simple matter of one side winning obviously while the other is equally obviously losing. They are a long, confusing, chaotic affair where it can be very hard to tell how's it going for which side, especially if you're in the thick of it. There are hundreds of examples of real battles where the situation was so chaotic that a part of the winning side starts retreating because they think they're losing - since their part of the battle is going more in the enemy's favor. I don't really need to be explicitly told during AOTC and ROTS battles "Now the Separatists have taken the lead and are winning!" That is not the main issue there. The battle itself is playing out it's course and in AOTC it's fairly obvious that the clones are more effective. They slice through those droids like a hot knife through butter in the Arena. When the two sides meet head on in full force, I found it quite obvious that they were more or less evenly matched and then the clones took the upper hand with bringing down numerous Separatist ships as they were attempting to flee. At no point was I in doubt who's winning or losing, as the battle is still playing out and the shots do a decent job of portraying both sides taking losses and scoring hits. The important thing is that we are not following a Clone Commander or an Army General, we are following Anakin and Obi-Wan who are on their way to capture Dooku. That is the main event, while the battle itself is in fact becoming a background event as the finale moves on. It is clearly stated that if they capture or kill Dooku, they can end the war right now. Therefore, the battle itself takes a backseat to the larger picture - whoever wins that one battle, the main big war has only just begun.

In ROTS it is again the same thing. The battle is a chaotic affair that is illustrated perfectly. Again, we are following Anakin and Obi-Wan who have a clear objective - to reach the Separatist Command ship and rescue Palpatine. At no point during that conflict did it ever present a problem to me that no one has clearly stated "The Republic is winning because so and so!" We are not following that, we are following, again, the larger event and that is the rescue of the Chancellor and the conrontation with the Separatist Leaders. As for how did they know which ship was Grievous' - I am fairly certain that they at one point mention that "that is Grievous' command ship" or something along those lines. Even if they don't, I do not really see how that is relevant or how it could be problematic. They have sensors. They have experience with Grievous for all the years during the war, even if you disregard the TCW it is safe to assume that they simply know which ship is Grievous' command ship. Or just, you know, sensors

I don't see anything at all confusing in either of those battles and have always found them rather clear and straightforward enough to follow without any problems at all.

 

The "less is more" approach can work magnificently. See Spider-Man 2.

 

Totally agree with you... and I'd also say that there is a beautiful choreography and symmetry to the battle of Geonosis, in particular, that just doesn't seem to be there in more modern films... the way the the battle in the arena evolves into a much bigger land and air battle, which the evolves into Obi-Wan/Anakin versus Dooku duel and then Dooku versus Yoda. Just brilliant (IMHO) regardless of any other faults. Not only that, but like the finale of ANH, it's almost dialogue free.

 

I always felt sorry for the poor clone trooper that got blown out of his ship and flung through space.

 

Don't he is just a clone, they don't have feelings or souls.