main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Let's be civil about....Plot Holes! (Debate #3)

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by CEB, Jan 31, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Knights of Ben

    Knights of Ben Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2016
    Again, first of all, this is more of a nitpick but your exact words were, that after mentioning her family to bb8 (and displaying her abandonment issues) "...it goes totally unmentioned until the line to Han." Which is false. Regardless though, yes Rey's introduction to the force proper does begin with Maz (despite the previous hint) but it is related directly to the previous build up of her "Jakku abandonment issues", which I thought were portrayed well. If she accepts her destiny, it means leaving Jakku. So her entire arc clearly doesn't begin at Maz's castle. And the sabre fight with Kylo, where she heeds the call, clearly isn't a "couple of minutes later". Her reaction to the Lightsabre isn't out of character, because the implications of what taking the sabre would mean, combined with the fact that this destiny takes her away from Jakku, is overwhelming. Remember Rey displays a naïveté and childishness on Jakku as well as her apparent toughness. She's not a grown, mature adult. Before the tie invasion, she's the master of her own little world. Then she's introduced to a whole series of situations where she's out of her depth.

    Yes, Luke does have a different starting point with the force, and gets a good build up, but his inner conflict is really resolved early in the film, and so IMO it makes him a less interesting character for the remaining two acts of the film.

    On the Han relationship, I thought it was done very well (already explained) in the fairly brief time that they have so I'm not sure if I can add any more to that.

    I'm not going to argue that the film doesn't move fast, it moves faster than every previous Star Wars film without a doubt. But I had no trouble following the motivations or desires of the various characters through the movie, nor did I find those motivations shallow. As to the force uses, no not reaching at all IMO. As I've said, the various reasons for Kylo's defeat, (both storytelling wise and in-universe) have been gone over ad nauseum, but they basically amount to a trained dark sider "losing his training" as the fight progresses. Rey displays no real skill with the Lightsabre, and the point of the Jakku thugs scene was to establish confidence in martial combat. She runs away for most of the fight, and then achieves a point of focus (Luke firing the torpedo) to win the day as Kylo is flagging (which we do see with regard to his movement and sabre swings). The force, to varying degrees, is also behind her swings, likely improving speed and possibly power (but not increasing skill).

    As far as the mind trick goes, it is certainly communicated in the OT that the mind trick is done by someone at or near Jedi Knight level minimum. But that's not set in stone, and the difference is that Rey does it on her third try with considerable effort, emphasising that it's a one off use (like Luke's early uses of the force.) Jedi Luke and Obi Wan pull it off with absolute ease, and can pull it out of the bag anytime they want. How does Rey think to do it? From the previous telekinesis reversal with Kylo. If that's not good enough, then it's more than likely that she has heard about it from the "Jedi myths" of Luke Skywalker (or just Jedi in general) too. With regard to Han's comment about the sabre deflections, Han already thinks the force at this point is "tricks and nonsense" in general, so I wouldn't trust his evaluation of a force user.

    But beyond this, the bottom line for you is that you think Rey's arc is essentially rushed, (or too complex) and the emotional beats don't hit or are done badly. I disagree, and I've given my take on plenty of moments from the film to support that. Not wanting to rely on either argument to authority, or indeed popularity, it is nevertheless worth considering why Rey has been such a huge hit with audiences and critics. I personally don't think it's because she has a badly written, broken arc with great acting compensating for the other failures.

    So yes, we appear to have reached that tedious "agree to disagree" stage I'm afraid. However it's much less tedious than both of us regurgitating the same argument to each other from here on out, so I suppose I will let my case stand here!
     
  2. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Again though I think this is exactly what the film fails to do, when Rey leaves Jakku this should have been a big dramatic moment where the drama comes from her having to give up he wait for her family but instead this isn't even mentioned and we get a lot of action as soon as she meets Finn.

    The film also has a clear problem in that Rey isn't just the master of her little world, she not only beats up the thugs sent after her but also pilots the Falcon like an ace, saves Finn from the space Octopi and fixes the Falcon. The first time she really shows any vulnerability is when she has the vision which for me is very uncharacteristic of her up to that point.

    I would say his conflict shifts in that even though he's made his decision to follow Obi Wan, learn the force and become a hero he's challenged in that by Han's scepticism and then of course by Obi Wan's death. I would agree though that Luke is definitely more interesting in ESB and ROTJ than he is in ANH. For me a lot of the attraction of ANH comes from the introduction of its strange new and very fully realised environment plus the sardonic edge to Han.

    Really I think there should have been no need to shoehorn in a character like Maz, Han should have been the one to fill that role giving him a lot more time with Rey to cover issues like Kylo/Ben, her family and the force. That could have built uop a relationship more like Luke and Obi Wan in ANH.

    The problem is that I think theres a mismatch in what Abrams sets up as Rey and Finn's arcs and what he actually delieverys. Both of these characters COULD have had a lot of depth behind them in Rey's family, her accepting the force and Finn getting over the scars of his ST years had been given more importance. The film for me isn't just quickly paced its plot driven, even happen because they have to happen rather than feelings like the outgrowth of the characters.

    I'm sorry but in terms of force use your not going to convince me that Luke and Rey develop in a similar fashion because they just don't, Rey's powers grow much more quickly with no training. Now I wouldn't be against that IF the film had built her up as some kind of special case, perhaps for example if she's shown supressed abilities early in the film maybe linked to visions about Luke/Kylo to sell the idea but this didn't happen and is really just speculation at the moment. Indeed I think introducing Rey's powers like that earlier in the film would have been a great way to build up her feelings about them and indeed to link them into her lost family.
     
    Ezon Pin likes this.
  3. Knights of Ben

    Knights of Ben Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2016
    Sure, I do respect where you're coming from, and when we look at Rey's powers, based on previous films/canon they ARE fairly remarkable. I don't think Luke and Rey with their respective force use (comparing ANH and early ESB with TFA) are exactly equal in terms of development. It's just that I think Abrams/Kasdan looked at those instinctive "untrained" uses as a bit of a precedent for the way that Rey uses the force in TFA. Some people clearly think they went too far, too fast, and I'm not dismissive of other people's views on this, but it works for me for the reasons I've outlined in my previous post.

    I did wonder if during the sabre scene Maz was going to turn to Rey and say, "you've used this before, haven't you my child?", and with Rey we see a spark of recognition, "I...I think so" (there's some amateur screenwriting for you ;) ). But I wonder if the inclusion of something like that scene might not have helped some folk buy into the sabre fight more at the end. I'm predicting some big mystery boxes will be unwrapped in episode 8.

    On the arcs, I think we perhaps have more of a fundamental disagreement about how they work (or don't work from your POV), but I may go into more detail on why I like Rey's arc in another thread. Maybe Finn's too.
     
  4. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Also her skills on Jakku are perfectly believable in-context, and I counted at lest 3 or 4 times where she'd have died or been captured without Finn. By contrast, she saves him like once or twice. And her dynamic with Han is no more hard to buy than Luke becoming so close to Obi Wan over the span of like two days. IE, in context I buy it completely. Especially since, unlike Luke, Rey had NO ONE to care for her up until she met Finn.

    And again, I DON'T want her to develop the same way as Luke. See people bring up the idea of "well that's not how it happened with Luke" as a problem, and I just don't agree. I want it to be different. And being more naturally talented/picking things up faster than Luke doesn't automatically make her a god-tier Mary Sue who has no flaws (yes the flawless girl who's the FIRST of the three trilogy's main leads to be captured by the villains in her debut film, didn't happen to Luke or Anakin remember, and who cannot save EITHER of the two people that she cares about most in the world, Han or Finn."

    Funny isn't it The very first thread like this one that we did (which is now locked) was all about this very topic. And now the general plot thread one, has also degenerating into being all about this. Oh boy, the next year and 11 months or so are going to be so much "fun."
     
  5. Knights of Ben

    Knights of Ben Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2016

    Be even more fun after that if there's no further explanation of her powers in episode 8! ;)
     
  6. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Oh dear, can you imagine!!
     
  7. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    I can imagine what will happen to the forum when people can get a copy of TFA and analyze it frame by frame.
    "Is there an satisfactory explanation of how Rey can swing the lightsaber in a downward arc?"
    "Is there an explanation of how Rey can make a stabbing motion with the lightsaber at this point in the fight?"
    "Was there a sufficient amount of time between Rey's first attempt at the Mind Trick and her second attempt. Did the stormtrooper delay in acquiescing to Rey's command in a sufficient amount of time or did he comply too quickly compared to the amount of time when Obi-Wan used the Mind Trick?"

    And on and on and on......
     
  8. AmySolo

    AmySolo Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2016
    rumblewagon and MeBeJedi like this.
  9. Stoneymonster

    Stoneymonster Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2002
    How did she learn the mumble-fluff form IV with modified gimblesnook parry without studying her Agrippa?
     
  10. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    How did she learn to do a backwards headbutt? Where did her makeshift "battle cry" come from?
     
  11. Knights of Ben

    Knights of Ben Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2016

    Apologies for jumping back into this, I'm not trying to be an argumentative SOB but just want to clarify a few things from this reply, which I didn't read carefully enough due to some distractions at the time!

    On my point about "master of her own little world": I meant her safety zone on Niima outpost, where, despite the fairly harsh existence, she feels everything is familiar and "within her control" so to speak. So her scaring off Teedo with her knife, and her taking out Plutt's goons are absolutely within this comfort zone. Now two of the other things listed (falcon flying, and repairs - the repairs being a Niima skill too) both require help from Finn (by which I mean the "poison gas" bit). In terms of the falcon escape, she needs quite a lot, as he saves both of their lives (well they save each other ultimately). So outside of "her own little world" she needs help, and can't make it on her own. Which is what she has to learn to accept over the course of the movie. With the Rathtars, there's a prime example of how she is out of her old comfort zone, because although she improvises and saves Finn in the end, she also lets them loose too. In fact there are several times the film shows her to be not as smart as she thinks she is.

    Side note on the falcon, although I don't want to get into a big debate on it: I don't think she flies it like an ace personally, she has a terrible, terrible start and then gradually improves as presumably her passive FS helps her. She also gets hit 3-4 times by the ties, and has the advantage of "Home turf" (flying into the Star Destroyer.) And of course Finn helping, and saving her.

    In terms of prior vulnerability, I first of all see it in her wide eyed naïveté ("Luke Skywalker! You're with the resistance!" Etc.) as well as how easily she's taken in by people (Finn, and bb8 to an extent). In addition, those scenes where she appears like a 5 year old (licking her plate, role playing the X-wing helmet). We see that she's not all that "tough" and doesn't have an adults experience to deal with life changing events. All she's known is Niima. Finally, the "Han moment" (job offer, she turns him down) we discussed earlier has some vulnerability to it too IMO.

    And finally, with regard to the leaving Jakku bit - whether you like the way it's written or not, Rey doesn't see this moment as leaving Jakku of course. She fully intends to return there after getting bb8 to the resistance base. She's on her own real adventure now, which relates to the mythic Jedi Luke Skywalker. This goes back to her daydreaming about being an X-wing pilot (we see the rebel alliance doll there too). And of course there is a parallel here with Luke's wanderlust in ANH. So the big decisions about leaving Jakku come later.

    Ok! Again, apologies! That's it! Finito! Finished! Done! May the force be with you!!! ;)
     
    Satipo, TigerCraneFist and Haytham like this.
  12. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Welcome to the forums. ;)
     
    rumblewagon and AmySolo like this.
  13. WookieeShampoo

    WookieeShampoo Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2015
    About Rey´s force use: Can we call this a plot hole? She is FS, there is an awakening, it comes natural to her, she uses it. It´s debatable how good that explanation is (and debating it is more interesting than questioning if it is a plot hole) but the plot explains it, my understanding of what defines a pothole could be too narrow though.
     
  14. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    ... too wide, actually.
     
    Satipo and Dagobah Dragonsnake like this.
  15. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Because she knows something you don't know - she is not left handed!
     
    Rhyoth, Satipo, rumblewagon and 2 others like this.
  16. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002

    [​IMG] :D :D :D
     
    Rhyoth, AmySolo, rumblewagon and 2 others like this.
  17. Blazer-Smith

    Blazer-Smith Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2004

    Well, these guys weren't able to uncover any huge plot holes and this is what they do.
     
    rumblewagon and Ezon Pin like this.
  18. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    "Never bothered me before!" - ROFL! [face_rofl]
     
    rumblewagon and Blazer-Smith like this.
  19. McLaren

    McLaren Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 1, 2002
    Anxiety is not the right word - more like bemusement.

    Bemused that the most common theme in this thread about logic is an attempt to extrapolate or infer: a) what was shown, and b) what comes next, based off of six data points that are quite obviously disconnected from the most recent data point.

    Star Wars is under new management.

    Whatever we thought Uncle George was telling us likely does not apply as this new team, well, they seem to have their own ideas. What those ideas are no one as yet can say as TFA knowingly and willfully failed to provide any meaningful answers.

    Trying to backcast based on what we expect to happen based on what happened in the classic saga is pure folly as the TFA "reboot" presents an almost limitless number of possible outcomes:

    - a "sequel" that gives us a similar story but from another point of view ala Rashomon
    - a thinly connected "sequel" ala Heavy Metal where an artifact awakens the Force in some other unsuspecting soul
    - a series that has little to no narrative coherence other than Star Wars "sights and sounds" ala Fantasia

    All those and the points between are arguably more probable based off what was presented in TFA than any derivation made from the PT/OT.

    Disney doesn't even refer to the movies as episodes anymore. Why are we still stuck in that mindset?
     
    Ezon Pin likes this.
  20. Leoluca Randisi

    Leoluca Randisi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2014
    I can answer one of them, R2 did not have the map the Map was in BB8 R2 just had the final piece to the puzzle.
     
    Ezon Pin likes this.
  21. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    I like that 3rd possibility the best! Maybe the "sights and sounds" of TIE fighters and the Millennium Falcon just zooming around in space the entire movie! Plus the sights/sounds of lightsabers! Maybe the main characters can be riding on top of TIE fighters in a lightsaber battle in space!

    Also, what does Disney refer to the movies as now? Cash cows? Moneymakers? Stock-price boosters?
     
    AmySolo likes this.
  22. AmySolo

    AmySolo Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Can't tell if srs. If so... :_|
     
  23. Rhyoth

    Rhyoth Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 2015
    I have a better idea : could we simply call The Force a plothole and move on ?

    i mean, the thing doesn't make any sense, is incoherent and unrealistic, allows some inconsistent and widely different set of powers (sometimes it's telekinesis & mind reading, sometimes it just increase one reflexes & physical ability), show some weird and unexplainable visions, without any consistency. Worse sometimes it seems it has its own will, but is never shown to act on its own.
    Sure, no one would believe in something so illogical, right ?
     
    SkooterNB, Stoneymonster and AmySolo like this.
  24. WookieeShampoo

    WookieeShampoo Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2015

    If you compare it with real live stories of supernatural powers like the miracles performed in the bible for example its not very different. There are many people who believe in these.
    The filmmakers caused some unnecessary inconsistencies, one can not deny that.
     
    Ezon Pin likes this.
  25. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2004
    I see you're professing the ANH Han Solo perspective to The Force rather than the enlightened TFA Han Solo perspective...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.