Senate Let's talk about sexism.

Discussion in 'Community' started by Sith-Lord-Gunray, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Beezel, a day may come at which a semi-literate mechanic of demonstrably limited means can talk that way to me. That day is not today.
    Last edited by Ender Sai, Oct 5, 2013
  2. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    What do we say to the Bond of death?

    [IMG]

    "Not today".
  3. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
  4. beezel26 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2003
    star 7
    My god you got so much hot air up there I bet you could float to Africa.
    Bib Fartuna likes this.
  5. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    ITT insecure men pound their chests and yell at each other in order to prove to the wimmenz how sensitive and enlightened they are.
    Last edited by harpua, Oct 5, 2013
  6. beezel26 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2003
    star 7
    Harpuah, please go home and let us mens continue beating our chests and making a complete jackass of ourselves. Or better yet make a thread where the men are banned from posting in it so you actually get some decent posts. ;)
  7. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
  8. beezel26 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2003
    star 7
    I was kidding and making a joke that is why I winked at you. It wasn't a hey how you doin wink. So don't get the wrong impression.
    Last edited by beezel26, Oct 5, 2013
  9. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 4
    Be careful, you may be accused of sexism. :oops:
    Saintheart likes this.
  10. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Sigh.


    Misa ab iPhono meo est.
  11. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    Ender is royalty; you should be referring to him by his first name.
  12. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Only a pretender.


    Misa ab iPhono meo est.
  13. s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 7
    SLG - not sure if you're still looking for facts, but my sister in law was sent this article by her professor (she's about to graduate with an accounting degree). The numbers are sickening. For any guys out there who believe this stuff isn't still going on please click this link and then go to the article titled 2012 Salary Survey: Leaning into the Wind. They've got nice graphs showcasing the differences.

    tl.dr. Women in accounting are earning 78% of what men are earning. So if a male is making $100,000, a woman in the same position is making $78,000.
    Juliet316 and Sith-Lord-Gunray like this.
  14. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Wrong, horsey. Your summary is incorrect.

    Read the piece I posted earlier from Slate.
  15. s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 7
    I'll read yours if you read mine. I'm looking at actual numbers here where the comparison is for the same work done from a survey of specifically accounting professionals.
  16. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl...every_man_s.html?fb_ref=sm_fb_plugin_activity

    http://www.stanford.edu/group/scspi/_media/pdf/key_issues/gender_research.pdf

    Among professionals the difference is closer to 91%, and in reality it's due to one simple factor: Women are more likely to have broken or interrupted career progression as they take time off work to raise children. If you charted it, you'd have flat-spots where the graph didn't grow for women as it did for men; and in a lot of cases, women will return after maternity leave on reduced hours, meaning that when their graphed progression does swing upwards again it's less sharp:

    Goldin and Lawrence Katz have done about as close to an apples-to-apples comparison of men’s and women’s wages as exists. (They talk about it here in a Freakonomics discussion.) They tracked male and female MBAs graduating from the University of Chicago from 1990 to 2006. First they controlled for previous job experience, GPA, chosen profession, business-school course and job title. Right out of school, they found only a tiny differential in salary between men and women, which might be because of a little bit of lingering discrimination or because women are worse at negotiating starting salaries. But 10 to 15 years later, the gap widens to 40 percent, almost all of which is due to career interruptions and fewer hours. The gap is even wider for women business school graduates who marry very high earner

    Saying that if a man earns $100,000, a woman will earn $78,000 is misleading and disingenuous; as Rosin suggests in the Slate piece, merely throwing equal pay legislation at employers should, according to you at least, correct the imbalance and use legislation to shift attitudes. This is wrong on a number of levels. It does nothing to address the imbalance in perception and framework around parental leave and childcare facilities and creates a situation where women are more enabled as child-carers.
  17. s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 7
    You are citing a source from several years ago. Some of the data used is from 10 years ago. The article I linked to is from 2012 data on a survey of accounting professionals.

    "In 2012, the salary gap is 78%, and the total compensation is 73% gap. The differences between men and women are statistically significant and have been in the prior 23 years of the survey."

    Please read page 4 of 18 on the pdf from the page I linked to. In the following pages they look at age differences, experience, children etc. All show males earning more for similar ages and experiences except in 1 instance. They look at salary and total compensation.

    Page 6 of the pdf, table 4 has averages for years of experience vs salary and years of experience vs total compensation. Years of experience accounts for breaks taken for having/raising a child. After 10 years of experience women are making $89,000 and a man with the same number of years experience is making $115,000.
    Juliet316 likes this.
  18. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Why do you still post here?
  19. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    You're asking me to read an article you at best skimmed, at worst cherry picked from? OK.

    Also, you will note if you bothered to read my post which you clearly effing didn't, that interruptions for childbirth/care do not mean that once the female worker returns to work the career progression and associated salary growth do not resume as if nothing has happened. As I clearly stated and you skimmed over because you love horses or some ****, typically women will ease back into work from maternity leave and work less hours/days at first. This impacts earnings and future earnings over time because salaries may be pro-rated for time in the office. It's not a hard concept to understand - it takes time to pick up where you left off and resume the career path. Moreover, if you do this, society still expects you to do most of the childcare duties which will put you at a disadvantage to a man who has no such societal encumbrance. Hanna Rosin also said this, but who cares what that lesbian feminist she thinks


    Page 30 clearly outlines why on a like for like comparative basis there is an imbalance in the financial advice sector in the US between the genders:

    "Some of the differences in compensation between men and women could be impacted by the differences in the
    demographic characteristics of men and women that appear in Table 2:
    ◆ Women are younger than men (46 vs. 49), which is statistically significant.
    ◆ Women are less likely to have advanced degrees (51% vs. 56%), which isn’t statistically significant.
    ◆ Women are less likely to have any kind of certification (66% vs. 75%), which is statistically significant.
    ◆ Women have less experience than men as measured by years in the field (19.1 vs. 23), years in their current
    position (6 vs. 7), and years with their current employer (9 vs. 11). These differences are similar to last year, though men are two years older and have two more years of experience than last year’s male participants. All of these differences are statistically significant."


    This is in reference to Figure 1 in the report, again on page 30.

    Oh, and on page 32:

    "While our survey doesn’t identify the causes, it appears that men with more than 10 years in the field establish a pattern of higher total compensation than women."

    That's reassuring; "we can see there's a difference but it's more important to highlight that a difference exists than to examine what caused it".

    Page 34:

    "To summarize, we have examined a number of differences between the compensation of women and men:
    ◆ Compensation by age category (Figure 3).
    ◆ Compensation by “years in the field” categories (Table 4).
    ◆ Compensation by management level (Figure 5).
    ◆ Compensation by supervisory responsibility (Table 5).
    Except for the 1-5 and 6-10 “years in the field” categories in Table 4, the compensation of women is less than
    that of men, and these differences are statistically significant. Thus, there continues to be a salary gap between
    women and men."

    So all they've done is confirm that on paper, women are paid less than men without asking why. All of which Hanna Rosin succinctly dismantled in her piece, whilst warning against the pitfalls of emotive and shallow analysis, which incidentally is exactly the standard you've applied here today. Please, instead of trying to make meaningful changes to the way in which society views gender roles and the specific "duties" accorded to the sexes, we can instead insist on wage fixing so that bewbs/peen-oos are not factors in pay (because that's totally what it's about, right? Tits and wang).
    CT-867-5309 likes this.
  20. s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 7
    =D= Attack me instead of talking about the data. I'm done here.
  21. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    You give up too easily, Lisa. He wasn't attacking you... that's just how he talks. He probably talks to his mother that way. He probably talks like that while he's making love to his wife. lol If you truly believe in what you're saying, argue the point, don't let Ego Sigh shut you up. :p
    beezel26, Healer_Leona and Juliet316 like this.
  22. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    "IS THAT THE BEST YOU CAN DO, [WIFE'S NAME]? OH, PISS OFF! MY SECRETARY CAN TAKE MORE."

    ....I don't know Ender turned into Gordon Ramsay.
    Rogue1-and-a-half and Juliet316 like this.
  23. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I discussed the data; oh wait. I get it. What you're doing here is sulking because your argument was ill thought out and you bought into the first half-assed report that sounded credible you found; but instead of appearing to sulk that you didn't do your research, you can act offended and that way, to you at least, your dignity remains intact. Oh splendid work Horsey! No, truly - you'll fool precisely nobody, excepting of course the one person who needs to be fooled which is, you know, you.

    But I'm going to call you on this, effectively asking you to put the toys back in the pram - if, as you claim, I am not discussing the data please explain to me what you think was happening when I critiqued your source for not doing qualitative analysis around the causes of the pay gap for genders. Especially when Hannah Rosin's piece sounds like it was written specifically in response to your report (and others like it).

    The decent thing to do would be to admit you were fooled by the superficial and sensational notion of unequal pay for equal work, as if a penis was worth as much as a postgrad degree in remuneration packages; and that in actuality, the issue is far more complex that that and involves a string of ill-conceived or even just unfair laws that co-opt women into retarding* their career progression for kids - an expectation no man has to shoulder (but should).

    (* I'm using this in the exact fashion by which the word should be used, lest anyone's tempted to get offended over nothing).

    I'm sorry if you're offended by being told you're wrong, but my advice in that regard is to either get a thicker skin or invest more time in not being wrong.
  24. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9

    1) Dorothy Mantooth was a saint!
    2) Separated, nearly divorced. My girlfriend though is a whip-smart feminist who has strong, but right, opinions on things. We get along famously.
    harpua likes this.
  25. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    Portions of this post that could be considered personal attack are colored in red; portions talking about the data colored in blue.
    Rogue1-and-a-half and Ender Sai like this.