Senate Let's Talk: Feminism

Were you wearing makeup at the store? Was your wife?

 

no and yes

 

As a feminist academic I am fairly sure she understands third wave feminism. I'm doing her a disservice, however she basically says that many of the claims of inequality (such as the gender wage gap) are skewed by confirmation bias. There are actually many feminist authors like her.

As I said I don't actually know enough about this stuff to know personally, but what I will say is that:

a) not everyone who is against third wave feminism is inherently sexist, anti-feminism or anti-egalitarianism
b) there is a militant and authoritarian strain in third wave feminism.

 

So then, it was probably safe to assume the makeup was for your wife.

 

It would be conducive toward discussion if you would present those arguments.

 

I don't want to pick a fight, as was just curious as to your opinion. I can't remember asking you something like this before? I'm not saying your wrong, I just don't remember.

 

As I have said, I don't know the arguments well enough to present them, nor was that what I was primarily addressing. Here is a video anyway:

 

I don't know the arguments well enough to have a satisfying back and forth. That doesn't mean they aren't convincing. I assume, since you know third wave feminism so well, that the arguments she presents will be meaningful to you.

I was addressing the rather simplistic view of the term 'feminism'.

 

Does your wife present as a woman in public? Do you?

 

If you mean do I wear make-up No, I don't, my wife does. I am just trying to see if thinking that men don't wear make-up and women do is considered as sexist and gender role stereotyping by some people in here.

 

sure. that makes it pretty simple. if you're not wearing makeup and she is, that's a pretty good basis for assumption, isnt it?

 

Yes it is, I agree that it's not sexist to make those assumptions and it looks like you do too.

 

go **** yourself

that's just how gender presentation works. stop trolling this thread

 

I am being serious when I say I mean no offense to you or ANAKINFAN. I apologize if I offended you.

 

apologize by lurking

 

Go away.

 

Well, I can't have a discussion with a video...but I'm gonna try, anyway!

That particular phrase, it's not one I use, no. Because reasons, one (among many others) being that it's just way too sanctimonious for me. I'm more likely to just tell someone to get some perspective when they're being ridiculously oblivious, which I'm assuming is the same thing.

Do people/men need to be more aware of themselves and others? Yeah, sure? Everyone could use that. But maybe don't be such a fanatic about it? Maybe be a little forgiving?

It's a very old dilemma.

Don't be hostile and confrontational. But sometimes you need to be hostile and confrontational.

Not in my (admittedly rather limited) experience. Certainly not in this thread, where men's troubles have always been acknowledged as part of the larger problem.

I already knew that. Again, this thread has pointed it out, that boys are falling behind and need help.

I'm pretty sure most seem to know and acknowledge this. There's not a lot of people out there who think boys are just kicking girl's asses in school, and that girls need extra help.

She's not pointing out anything revelatory, but maybe these things aren't being given their proper concern and effort.

Again, is there anyone who doesn't know this? Again, I imagine a lot of women in this thread know this and would like it to change.

I know a lot of women/feminists would like these areas to open up to women. That's, like, pretty obviously feminism, right?

Personally, I absolutely think women should share in this work. Are there any feminists who don't?

Personally, I don't have any desire to do jobs like these. I'm lazy, and it seems like a lot of hard work. I've done a lot of crappy manual labor jobs (though nothing dangerous), and I honestly hated them. Who doesn't? I didn't have (m)any women coworkers in those manual labor jobs. The idea, I think, is that they're weak and can't perform as much labor. Well, those jobs really weren't about a race for maximum labor, there were just tasks that needed to be done in a certain time frame (it wasn't extreme). I'm absolutely certain that many women could accomplish those tasks in the time allotted.

I mean, if I could do those jobs as a skinny teenager, then I'm pretty sure a lot of grown women could do them, too.

So, yeah, let women do those jobs, especially those that use heavy machinery in place of actual human labor. I don't see any reason women can't operate a bulldozer or a chainsaw, or whatever.

Let men have more of the "cushy" jobs that are often female dominated. Why should men have to do all the hard labor? And why should women be excluded from it, when some might actually want to do it? Total balance isn't necessary, but more balanced is.

Again, isn't this just basic feminism? What are we even talking about? Oh, right, men not needing to check their privilege. Again, don't be an unforgiving fanatic. Don't be hostile and confrontational, even though you might have to to get your message across.

Again, is there anyone who doesn't know this? Again, women in this thread have acknowledged this.

Men aren't just the victims, though, we're the perpetrators, too. Again, isn't this caused by the gender expectations we place on men to be aggressive and domineering? Isn't this what feminists want to tear down?

As a man, it does trouble me that there is so much violence among ourselves. Why do we do this to each other? I'd love it if some men's movement focused on this, not by attacking women, but by encouraging each other to drop the macho crap (the way women feminists have encouraged other women), by changing society and our roles in it. You know, basically more feminism.

As a kid growing up in a tough neighborhood, I had to prove my toughness by getting into fights with every other boy around. Literally. Every boy in my neighborhood had to go through this, to see who was stronger than who, to set up a sort of hierarchy of toughness. I hated this. I didn't want to fight, at all. As someone who generally isn't a violent savage, fighting someone (win or lose) for no reason other than as a test was all kinds of undesirable, obviously. This nature held me back at the time, despite being what I consider to be the right approach.

I'm sure lots of guys can relate to that to some extent. I'm sure lots of guys have to go through similar trials of manliness. I'm sure I'm not the only one who just hated it. So why do we keep doing it? (continuity is hard to break, mostly)

I don't remember any of the girls in my neighborhood (or anywhere else) having to do anything like that. I'm certain girls have their own unique trials among their fellow girls growing up, but they don't learn to punch their way to the top of the food chain.

I'm not saying who has it worse, I don't care, I'm just saying there's way too much violence in what is considered a normal upbringing for a boy.

I know this probably goes way back to the days of young men having to prove themselves as hunters and warriors, all that crap. Well, wtf, it's not needed today. It has no place. Time to drop it.

I haven't faced this personally, but online culture is something that's very alien to me, something I've never really been a part of, so I can't identify with it. I don't really care about it. Just for disclosure.

It's obvious that men would be more likely to be the target of threats online, as they are in real life. We see each other as acceptable targets for violence, and women as unacceptable.

But...it's kinda hard for me to take threats of violence made online totally seriously. There's obviously a lot of bs macho posturing involved.

Again, feminists know this, don't like it, etc.

Once again, feminists know this, don't like it, etc. It's been mentioned many times in this thread. They're about equality, remember?

Male suicide. Honestly, I don't know much about it...and I'm probably talking out of my ass here, but my ass springs forth nothing but a personal viewpoint. There seems to be a lot more pressure on men, doesn't there? Pressure to succeed? To make money? Pressure to be a breadwinner? To provide for the family? Pressure to be a "winner", period, amirite? Men are more often called "losers"? (thanks, competition)

If the family has money problems, it's our fault, right? That's the perception? We blame ourselves hard, don't we? A lot of men consider suicide because so much pressure is on us to succeed, right? I hear of a lot of men killing themselves because they could not provide. I don't hear that about women as much. Well, by letting women take on part of the responsibility, we take the pressure off ourselves, don't we?

Again, aren't feminists all over this? Take the pressure off men to perform their traditional roles, and I think male suicide would go down.

Incarceration. Well, it's obvious that if men are brought up with more violence, they'll be more likely to end up in prison. Violence is, you know, pretty much always unacceptable under our laws, and punishment tends to be more difficult to escape. And, again, all that pressure on men to succeed as breadwinners makes it more likely that men will resort to crime to make money.


And, of course, since men don't need protecting, we're more likely to show no mercy to them. Since women are weak and need to protected, thanks to that awful idea of chivalry, they're more likely to be shown mercy.

Homelessness. GET A JOB, YOU LAZY BASTARD. If you're a man and you're not making money, you're a loser, amirite? Women don't quite get the same attitude to the same extent, again thanks to chivalry and ideas that men should provide for women.

Combat. Again, men are acceptable targets (literally, this time), and women are not. We've seen J-Rod and others say things like this.

Well, I'm all for women in combat. We need bodies, and if women want to sign up to catch bullets, let them. Equal opportunity, equal burden/responsibility.

These are all very obvious subjects that feminism has well covered, no? I don't know what we're talking about here.

How many "check your privilege" feminists don't want women in combat? Yes, maybe they should realize that men don't just have privileges, they have the burden of combat...but they already want to share that burden.

Yeah, things aren't all roses for men. Feminists know this, and are actually trying to help.

Well, duh. If we're doing the more dangerous jobs, and being taught to inflict violence on each other, and all the other things already mentioned, of course our life expectancy is going to be shorter.

Who doesn't know this?

It's a great point...but, again, obvious? Of course life isn't so simple as "men bad"? Of course each sex has its own advantages and disadvantages, because this is reality?

Yeah, I'd rather we drop this "check your privilege" stuff...but it does seem that men are often more ignorant about such things (or that it is more often relevant, it comes up in more casual situations), and perhaps need to be reminded more often that they're being an a-hole. I mean, a crapload of men still think chivalry is this totally awesome thing...because we teach them that it is, by treating women as needing to be protected and all that. So there's some conflicting messages. Many grow up being taught that chivalry is good, and even continue to receive that message as adults...but then they're told to check their privilege when they're only doing something they were taught was right and good.

Hey guys, maybe when a woman tells you to check your privilege...you can tell her at least she isn't in prison or homeless? Check your privilege. Check mate. Yeah, maybe we shouldn't engage in petty one upping. Maybe we shouldn't play this game.

It's almost as if she's addressing...overzealous, immature kids on the internet. The dreaded "social justice warrior", amirite? They're easy to criticize. I don't think of them when I think of third wave feminism. When I think of third wave feminism, I think of focus on rape, reproductive rights and just general respect toward women (ie, catcalling, slut shaming, etc are bad).

The feminists in this thread don't promote gender resentment or divisiveness. You won't find (m)any "check your privilege" comments in this thread, I don't think. You won't find a lot of general states of bitterness, I don't think.

One last thought about the paradox of men being an oppressor class who are more victimized, do the dangerous jobs, etc. We have, to some extent, done it to ourselves, haven't we? With our inability to let go of our roles, our desire to hang on to them leading to us going to ever further extremes of masculinity, we've sorta screwed ourselves, haven't we? Yes, society. Yes, the continuity of centuries or even millennia of human history brought us here. But we deserve some blame for our own burdens, because we refuse to let them go. When we consider the power we've held, it's hard to escape the responsibility for our own suffering, it's almost a sort of self-oppression.

Again, aren't feminists generally all over this? In my experience (which doesn't involve twitter, facebook or tumblr), they are.

 

Say CT, I have to ask, have you done any Master-level navigating social minefield training?

Quite seriously you've got a real knack for cutting through all the rubbish that tends to clutter up understanding in these areas.

 

Maybe she is making a lame effort to attack third wave feminism, or maybe she is simply trying to dispel the minorities of feminism that operate under false logic and fact.

The majority of people for this third wave of feminism are truly about gender equality I think, not leaving men in the dust as Anakinfan said.

But, there is obviously a minority out there that has this mentality. I think its possible it is that minority that Sommers is speaking against.

If she is indeed speaking out against modern feminism, then i agree with CT-867-5309.

I completely agree with CT-867-5309. It seems that when people want to criticize the opposition, they take the most extreme and immature and refute their arguments.

I would say this is cowardly, and you see politicians do it daily. If you can't openly refute the level-headed argument of the other side, then you should probably join the other side.

So what is Sommers doing? Speaking against Third Wave Feminism in a cowardly fashion? Or Trying to quiet the loud-mouthed minority of modern feminism.

 

Statue of limitations for rape in California is history.

 

This young lady is really ****ing pissed off about sexist children's clothes.
http://distractify.com/trending/201...er-the-sexist-clothes-kids-are-forced-to-wear