Senate Let's Talk: Feminism

Okay then, I stand corrected and yeah, that is stupid as ****.

 

This story seems fit for this thread:

https://www.yahoo.com/style/tv-anch...-proves-important-point-sexism-194431605.html


So ridiculous. Someone sure seems to be studying his binders full of women.

 

Those are real, BTW.

 

You can't make this **** up.

 

Indeed and the name is Dacre, Paul Dacre. Dacre doesn't seem to have the US profile of Murdoch but he is every bit as bad in media terms.

 

that article was written by a female journalist I believe .

 

Problem with that, it’s hardwired. Men are competitive by nature, the very fact that a woman is willing to have sex with you means that at some base level your combination of traits, genes, status etc. seems to be desirable to her. Which means you somehow managed to have been picked for being valuable enough to procreate, even if that is not the actual aim you were going for or don’t ever want children.
If she would rather do it with someone else than you, it means he is clearly more desirable to her then you, which even if in your rational mind is clearly aware that “the problem is not you”, your subconscious and base feelings tell you something very different, because if it were not the case she would have chosen you.

As usual upbringing and cultural indoctrination is partly to blame for that, since as young man you are often taught in interacting with woman that if you are pleasant enough, nice enough, supportive enough etc. woman will like you. Since you are hardwired to want sex you will then of course try to get a woman to like you, because you have been taught that is supposed to help if she likes you.
If it then turns out, yes she likes you, but just not in the way you want her to, it will lead to frustration and very harsh dissonance in the values you have come to believe in about how such things are supposed to work.

It’s the value thing again, most man have this hardwired/trained need to prove that they are good enough to be considered for sex. Its why they will show off status, wealth, make themselves seem important, because it was what they been shown /told to work in reaching the goal of getting sex. Being “nice” is one of these taught strategies for try to persuade woman of their value as sexual partner. If it doesn’t work out, you of course become frustrated, just like with anything else were you dumped endless effort into and then doesn’t get you what you seek.

As someone who did struggle with this when I was younger, I always found that it helps to make clear why you are doing things, to yourself as well as to the other person. If you want sex/a relationship with the other person and are being nice for that very reason, tell them, make sure to let them know and keep telling them or at least dropping the hints. If it does not work out and you yourself can’t emotionally deal with just being friends, just break off the whole contact completely, it is often for the better.

Of course, if on the other hand you are just nice for the sake of being nice, let that person know that as well.

 

I know and fully agree, it is just often very hard to do if it runs against imprinted core values or genetics. And just because your brain tells you that you should know better it will still effect you.

Let’s talk about an example, that is very close to me personally. My ex-girlfriend, in her later 20es, learned that she could never have children or at least not healthy ones, so we decided, after long deliberations, to have an abortion when the tests showed that the fetus would not turn out to be livable child. Hard enough on us as that was, it was far worse for her for very different reasons.
Coming from a very traditional deeply loving family that always had many children and as the youngest of 5 daughters, that she would be only one who did not, or would ever have children, was deeply traumatic for her.

She had always been shown and told by her family how great it was to be a mother and so she felt it was basically also expected of her. Also, as long as I had known her she always wanted children. It of course caused her deep anxiety and she went into a deep depression and when she was not depressed she was just angry at everything and everyone. Giving up on pretty much everything else that was important to her, not only because of the bad news and circumstances as such, but because a very core value for her, something that she felt was very important for her and her fulfillment of life, would never happen.

Adding to that she started to feel that her family would now be no longer be able to respect or love her, despite them clearly doing the exact opposite and her trying to just push them away. Rationally she was fully aware that she could just as well adopt a child, or just be a great aunt to her many nieces and nephews, that I would still support and love her, that her family still loved her and that she could still have a deeply fulfilling life. Emotionally and deep down things looked very different, for a very long time and it took her almost two years to recover to even a level of being “functional” again and just being able to deal with getting her life back on track and getting her anger under control.

If things break inside you that you have based your whole well-being and personality around, you will not take it well. Of course, what happened to her is a far more extreme example, but hurtful romantic rejection and trying to rationalize it, especially if it collides with your “core values” about how things should be, will traumatize you and getting over it can be hard.

I know plenty of woman who freely do and make just as terrible decisions as their male counterparts because of it. Accepting abusive relationships, making destructive life choices or turning to substance abuse just because something went "askew" when they were socialized or if they only follow primal choices.

Neither are men. Since you are supposed to always have your emotions under full control, never let stuff get to you and if you get angry you are automatically a brute who is unable to deal with stuff on a “rational” level.

It sometimes helps to yell and just vent your rage. Same goes for crying if you are sad. Though you should not do it against people, especially ones you care for.

Oh I fully agree, I just wanted to point out why some man have a major issue with the “friend zoning” thing and were a lot of the frustration stems from.

 

Of course they need to, not excusing, just trying to explain where it comes from.

I had to get over that very problem when I was younger and admittingly still struggle with the “sex is a reward” thing at times, because I still feel that it is.
Companionship, interesting exchanges, shared interests, hobbies, a good laugh, emotional support etc. are things that I can also get from my friends and to a certain extend my family….Sex is something I can’t get from them. So for me at least it is the motivator behind seeking “romantic” relationships. The rest is also valuable and certainly enjoyable, if it comes along with it, but it is certainly not the motivator or the "purpose".

Not having a clue how or what kind of values I should teach a child is one of the lesser reasons why I got a vasectomy.
So let’s better not talk parenting.

 

Basing your entire value around what one person thinks of you is pointless and stupid. People are attracted and not attracted to different people for a lot of reasons and it is not a competition on who is "better". Everyone has been rejected by someone at some point in their lives.

Example on why thinking of rejection as a competition with the other guy is stupid: Once in university many years ago I had two different guys express interest in me around the same time. One was objectively by traditional accounts "better" than the other - he was very attractive, was a corporate lawyer and made a lot of money, very athletic and fit, etc. The other guy was about average looking, worked at a non profit, was a bit socially awkward, not very athletic and more into reading and nerdy stuff. I went with the second guy. Why? Because the first guy even though he had a lot of great qualities was very conservative and I'm pretty passionately liberal about social issues and unwilling to compromise on that. And the second guy I felt more comfortable with and he had a witty sense of humour I really liked, plus we could geek out about Star War and Buffy the Vampire Slayer and all that together. Did that mean that the first guy was worse than the second guy? No, of course not. To a lot of women, they would have thought he was "better" because he was better looking and more successful. I'm sure he'll make some girl who votes conservative or a girl who doesn't mind that very happy. It's about compatibility, not who's "better".

Hell, if you want to take a celebrity example Princess Diana who was beautiful and young and virginal (the three traits traditionally considered the most desirable in a woman) was unable to make Prince Charles love her because he loved the older, less attractive and married Camilla. Was it because Camilla was "better" than Diana? No, Charles felt him and Camilla were more compatible than him and Diana (and they were) so he wanted to be with her instead.

And let's cut it out with the BS stereotyping about how men are hardwired to do this so they cannot escape it (if that were the case, men would be raping and pillaging everywhere. Civilized society exists because men and women don't succumb to primal instincts).

Frankly, that's a lot of bullcrap. Whoever raised you that way I'm sorry, but they were wrong. Women don't owe you squat because you were nice to her. She's a human being, not a vending machine where sex falls out once you put in enough kindness tokens. You need to start looking at woman as human beings, not objects to be conquered in some competitive game and you'll become a lot more attractive to women.

Again let's cut it out with the bullcrap that men are unable to overcome their primal urges. Also showing off status and wealth is an incredible turn off to me and most women I know, so unless a guy wants to attract some gold-digger, I would advise against that.

Why can't a guy just be nice because it's a nice thing to do, not because they have an ulterior motive of wanting to have sex with her? Because a genuinely nice guy who is nice to a girl he is interested in and also everyone else around him (his platonic girl friends, his guy friends, his peers etc.) is a hell of a lot more attractive than some creepy guy who is only nice to girls he wants to have sex with and then goes off and whines when he doesn't get the sex he feels he's earned by being nice.

For crying out loud, being nice is the bare minimum it should be required to be a decent human being. Thinking you should get cookies for it (i.e. sex) is incredibly unattractive and will turn off countless women. Like Cracked says "Saying that you're a nice guy is like a restaurant whose only selling point is that the food doesn't make you sick. You're like a new movie whose title is This Movie Is in English, and its tagline is "The actors are clearly visible."

Well I agree with this, if you are befriending a girl with the ulterior motive of eventually wanting to sleep with her, you should be upfront with her about that. Otherwise you can't really complain if she starts dating someone else or doesn't realize you were interested if you never expressed any interest.

 

A lot of what Gorefiend has said sounds like it stems from self-esteem problems and deep need for validation.

For reasons that cannot be explained, I've rarely had significant self-esteem problems. I've always sorta liked myself, so I don't dwell on rejection the way Gorefiend described. It's okay if someone rejects me, because ultimately I like myself as I am, and it helps that others have returned my affection in the past.

Competing with men for mates does seem like a primal instinct, yet I've managed to avoid it almost entirely. I don't compete with men over women. I never really got into any variety of **** measuring. Whether it be actual penis measuring, or who had the "coolest" bicycle or best toys on the block. I guess, when you grow up as poor as I did, being envious isn't a great option. I learned to appreciate what I had, not compare it to what others had, or focus on what I don't have (my mom deserves a lot of credit for me learning this lesson). That lesson probably works in a lot of areas of life, and helped separate from own self-worth from possessions and competition with other people.

It also helps if you view women as actual individual human beings, with all that entails, not as possessions. The importance of this cannot be understated. In fact, it should be my only response on the subject, anything else is a secondary distraction from the primary issue.

I also had a very positive relationship with my older brother when I was growing up, starting from a very early age. You know sibling rivalry? I don't. We didn't have any rivalry, there was no competition between us. You know how brothers fight? I don't. We never fought. I can't imagine getting into an actual physical confrontation with my brother, it's unthinkable to me.

It may also be due to having no father/adult males around when I was a kid? No competition there, either. *shrug*

I can actually be a very competitive person. I competed in sports. I'll compete in games and such, sometimes to an intensity beyond most people. So it's not that I'm just not a competitive person at all, just not in the way Gorefiend described.

You see it in little kids all the time. When they have some attraction toward someone, whether they're aware of it or not, they start behaving noticeably nicer to them. It's almost an affectation, except they're too young to know they're doing it.

Being extra kind to someone you have some sort of special affection for is entirely natural and rational. Of course you're probably going to be nicer to that person, you've given them a special status. And, yes, being nice actually does help, at least sometimes. Kindness is on many lists of desirable traits. Special attention is often appreciated. Men like kindness, too, and can be taken in by it. Men like special attention, too. Women are often noticeably nicer to the men they are attracted to, too.

At some point, however, you're supposed to learn that this simply may not be enough, and may not be a major factor. That no amount of kindness will somehow make that person attracted to you. It simply often doesn't work that way.

There are some conflicting messages, and you have to be able to sift through them to find the truth, to see reality. Unfortunately, a lot of men grow up learning problematic lessons, so it's something they have to overcome.

Of course they can?

But it's not about "can". Can is irrelevant. The reality is, just about everyone is extra nice to the person they want to have sex with.

(except those terribly misguided people who try "negging")

Of course, but not everyone is a genuinely nice person, and just about everyone is extra nice to people they are attracted to.

By this measure, the level of kindness one shows to a person one is attracted to, there are a LOT of people who don't qualify as decent human beings. Yet, those people want and need love and sex, too, and indeed naturally they also get it, because we're talking about a huge fraction of the population.

Indeed, it will turn off men, too. It is, what, egotism and hubris? If some woman baked me cookies and thought so highly of it that she thought she deserved sex in return...I don't know what I'd do. I'd probably laugh my ass off, right in her face.

So, this may be a good analogy for guys to understand. Your little acts of kindness do not "earn" you sex, any more than a woman baking cookies for you earns her sex from you. Hopefully, you're not so desperate that receiving cookies alone is enough to get you on board.

When you're a kid, behaving well might result in actual cookies. Even when you're an adult, behaving kindly in the world might pay off. But, as you said, at some point, you're supposed to learn that kindness is supposed to be done for its own sake. You're supposed to behave well all the time, and at some point you shouldn't have to be given cookies for it, you should learn to drop the expectation for cookies.

Of course being nice doesn't somehow automatically "win" you sex. Of course it doesn't. Everyone is supposed to learn this, probably during adolescence, but some take longer to learn than others. It's probable that something about the continuity of their lives has stunted their growth a bit.

 

Of course it's natural for someone to be nicer to someone they are attracted to. What is problematic as you've pointed out is the underlying belief that she "owes" you sex because you were nice to her and then getting upset and frustrated when she doesn't "reward" your good deeds with sex.

Yes, there are a lot of not so nice people that exist in this world. But if a guy is wondering why he can't get a girlfriend and keeps getting rejected but he is only nice to the girl he is interested in having sex with, it might be a good time to take a look in the mirror. Women look at not just how you treat her, but how you treat your friends, your coworkers, your waiter at your restaurant, your platonic female friends, etc. Women in general find it much more attractive to see a genuinely nice guy who treats everyone well vs. a creepy guy who is rude to most people but treats the woman he wants to have sex with nice because he expects sex from her. And like I said before, if you're only being nice to her because you expect sex from her then the niceness doesn't come from a genuine motive, which is also a huge turn off to a lot of women.

Exactly. I mean, if I flipped the situation around and a woman you did not find attractive in any way kept doing kind things for you - baking you cookies, listening to you, helping you out - would you suddenly become attracted to her because she was doing all these things for you? Unlikely. So why do some men expect women to suddenly become attracted to them because they did all these nice things for her?

Agreed with all this. Don't treat your interactions with women as a transaction where if you put in a requisite number of kindness tokens sex falls out and get mad when you don't get what you think you "deserved". Treat women like human beings that you are genuinely interested in (and not just in having sex with), and you'll be a hell of a lot more attractive to them.

 

It is.

Rationally of course it is, deeper down it is more complicated.

Of course, how we deal with that is one of the things that makes as grown up humans.

Actually it does, and you even explained exactly why, since the personality for the second guy was clearly far more attractive to you.

Pretty sure the other guy felt very different about that, even if it was just on a base level. And compatibility is exactly what we are talking about here, because it is one of the main selection criteria.

She was apparently also notoriously arrogant, naggy and was rather unstable.

Take a look at what happens were civilization does break down, were indeed far less pleasant and more primal things show up.

Oh I know, just took a while to get over it/still struggle with it at times. Sadly it is a pretty common "indoctrination".

I do look at woman as human beings don’t worry, just like I look at guys, since I do have and have had romantic attraction to both genders.

Who said anything about them being unable to? Just something that is ingrained and they will struggle with.

Trust me I know and have learned that the hard way. Having dated and having had relationships with people who were insanely needy and possession orientated, whilst being unable to show connection in a different way then just offering sex.

Many can and many are.

Fully agree.

Pretty much spot on and sadly such things are rather common.

 

When it comes to love and sex and relationships we all know what we're supposed to say , we can talk the talk , but then there's emotions and hormones and personal baggage and social pressure and these things can be hard to deal with , and of course people never take their own advice anyway .

I mean we can all view it correctly when we're in an objective frame of mind , but when you're in the middle of it it can be quite a maelstrom , humans are messy and we're not always in control .

 

Okay, but like, having terrible self-esteem is not an excuse for also clinging to misogynistic beliefs. Plenty of people with low self-esteem don't subscribe to pickup theory or redpill nonsense or any of the other "explanations" you're issuing in here. It sucks if you have self-esteem issues and it sucks that self-esteem issues are common among horrid, sexist men, but those issues are neither excuses nor explanations nor reasons. Sexism is something separate from self-esteem issues, no matter how hard you try to link them.

 

Hü? When did I ever express anything like that?

What?

How should one be related to the other or where did I ever say anything like that?

 

I just had an epiphany. I like women. I'm a straight guy and I knew that, but I love women. I think women are great. I love women.

The epiphany part of it is that a lot of guys actually aren't that into women. They just like orgasms. And you get the best ones from women, not from yourself. So, women are fine; they give you orgasms!

I feel like I'm just super-into women and a lot of guys who are supposedly real sexual studs or whatever could actually care less about women, even the superficial things they're supposed to like, like what they look like. I feel like I'm just constantly being struck by how beautiful women are, like just the average women I see on the street or whatever. And this is to say nothing of how much I love art by women, like female directors or authors or whatever. I finally get it. I don't just like sex. I actually like women. Some of these guys need to reexamine their sexuality; they're not straight, ie. sexually attracted to women. They're hedonists; they're sexually attracted to sex. I mean, I get it; sex is ******* great. But it's so much cooler to like women than it is to just like sex; it's so much more awesome. They don't know what they're missing.

 

i've noticed you also like a lot of art by men, like male directors or authors or whatever. maybe you just like people? not me though, most people are annoying as **** regardless of gender. i've been lucky enough to meet a few who are okay.