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Senate Let's Talk: Feminism

Discussion in 'Community' started by blubeast1237, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Help. I need a basic feminism tutorial for an unexpected demographic: trans people, especially trans men. I sometimes post on another site that is especially for trans people, and there's this mind-boggling thread where a bunch of trans guys are insisting that male privilege doesn't exist and that actually men get the most raw deal. They are not seeming to get that:

    * Just because there are some disadvantages to being male doesn't mean that bias against women doesn't exist.
    * Sexism is a systemic thing, inherited over millennia. It did not roll over and die in the 1970's, or the 1990's, or ever.
    * The fact that they have some female friends who defy feminine conventions with apparent impunity doesn't change the reality that most women live by those conventions, and suffer from them. (And suffer more if they defy them.)
    * Saying that sexism exists is not the same thing as saying that all men everywhere, at all times, are terrible people.
    * Some other **** I'm sure I'm missing.

    How do you explain things that are this basic to someone who doesn't get them? Especially if that someone A) was socialized female, and B ) has had the opportunity to compare life as a woman vs. life as a man?
     
    Dark Lady Mara likes this.
  2. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
  3. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Department of Health and Technically-Human-at-the-Genetic-Level Services
     
  4. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
  5. Hef

    Hef Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2005

    "Some of them claim, with no scientific backing, that birth control involves fertilized eggs being expelled from the uterus and is therefore abortion. Others just believe that it’s immoral for a woman to have sex without accepting the possibility of pregnancy."

    Others may simply believe that taking responsibility for

    or paying for anything to do with your sex life

    is up to you.
     
  6. Juliet316

    Juliet316 JCC Game Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
  7. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002

    The school's reasoning behind banning the girl's suit:

    There's a dress code so there can be a dress code. That certainly clears things up.
     
  8. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    Presumably lots of women in the church during First Communion were wearing pants and a shirt... But the girl isn't allowed to..?
     
  9. Juliet316

    Juliet316 JCC Game Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005


    It probably has to do with the fact it looked like a boy's suit than a Hilary pantsuit, and this church suddenly went "oh no, a girl wanting to dress like a boy! We can't have that!" UGH!
     
  10. Dread Pirate Roberts

    Dread Pirate Roberts Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2017
    poor yorick I read something recently that I thought was pretty useful. It was this scene in Anna Karenina in which there is this political debate going on at one end of the table. On the other end though, there is a couple discussing how futile the debate is, because as they say, "No one ever convinces anyone."

    But the characters theorize why the debate is happening at all, and why no one ever change their minds. The solution they come up is that each debater has something they care about in mind. Something feel the need to protect. And the debate may be related to that idea and so the actual subject material being debated doesn't matter, they're always going to be protecting something.

    For example, I love the prequels, but if some guy tries to tell me the CGI is horrible, I'll disagree with everything he says, even if it's factually based, because I'm trying to protect the prequels.

    Anyway, you don't have to listen to me, I just thought it was an excellent explanation for the futility of an argument. Maybe try finding what these trans men really care about. Maybe it has little to do with sexism and more to do with their fear of being judged for something new.
     
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    My take on it is that sexism hurts men as much as it hurts women. Men being socialized with toxic-masculinity standards such as the insistence on being “tough,” suppressing every emotion except anger, the idea that seeking help is a sign of “weakness”—all of those lead to the problems that men face more than women, such as greater prison numbers and greater homelessness. Some of the animosity towards education and display of intelligence—disdain towards “nerds”—also goes back to toxic masculinity. So the problems that men face in greater numbers than women are not caused by misandry or by men being “left behind,” they are caused by misogyny, by the idea that any emotional vulnerability or need for help is “too feminine” and the idea that smart, educated people are “not tough enough.”

    I know that transgender people face unique issues with societal discrimination and I don’t know if this helps but it’s what I have.
     
  12. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012

    Why suicide is high among under 35s and why male anorexia is under represented in statistics. "Boys don't cry" is why we're having a significant mental health crisis among adolescent men in the Western world.

    Tragically, as well, male domestic violence victims are highly unlikely to go the police or even speak out; the ridicule of not being tough and "being beaten up by a girl" is hurtful and prolongs the silence.
     
  13. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Thanks anakinfan and DANNAS. Apparently toxic masculinity, with all its disdain for women and femininity, is a thing among some trans guys. I spoke with my friend Dan about what he calls "***** trans guys" and he gave me a rather impassioned appeal to reach out to them if I could. He says that he used to be a ****** trans guy, and that they act that way because they're angry about not getting their needs met. Much of the trans community is geared toward trans women, and rightly so, since they suffer the most discrimination and have the hardest transition. Apparently some guys feel left out by the community and jealous of and resentful toward the women, so they lash out. I'll be in contact with Dan about how better to help men like this. He says that once guys start feeling understood and supported, they're more open to being told not to treat other people like crap.
     
  14. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    The concept of benevolent transphobia typically spreads fear toward trans women. Trans men are treated like they are women, which is both prejudiced due to its inaccuracy, and absurd, given how trans women are often treated like dirt.

    It's akin to the notion of benevolent racism. So disgusting.

    But trans men do have a far more difficult transition. I've met a couple who took five years to complete the entire thing. The healthcare system is bats and dumb as heck in many of the States. They treat trans people like we're science experiments or something. But you are so right. Trans men are often left out, and they need to have a voice. Also, I'd generally say that those who identify as genderqueer, intersex, etc. need more of a voice. We aren't just trans men and women. As with everything human, there's always a spectrum. Same for asexual and demisexual people.
     
    Jedi Merkurian and Rew like this.
  15. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Interesting perspective.

    I just think California did the right thing. Some regard gender has a silly thing. We should be able to legally change our gender (without a surgery) in more places than eighteen U.S. states and in forty countries on this planet. Doesn't matter if people want to change it from male to female, female to male, or a third gender like non-binary, or whatever. While some biological things influence gender, those who do not feel influenced by that should not be forced into any gender role that they do not like.

    I helped my friend get out of state, and she was able to change her gender to female in Oregon. Her goal was to get away from religious people (not Christian fundamentalists, but pagan ones) who persecuted her. Her parents had passed away, and no one could protect her but herself. Now, she's happy up there by Portland. She loves farm life. I think that's a good thing for many people. Nobody should go through all the hoops and requirements that I had to in Texas just do that. It's absurd. The third gender option is also supported by transfeminism and fourth-wave feminism in general.



     
    Rew likes this.
  16. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    It's sad how many people think things like, "You can get fired from your job for criticizing your boss, so why shouldn't you get arrested for criticizing the government?"
     
  17. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    LOL. Misogyny is almost as much if not as much a part of the alt-right as racism. Any alt-right publication indicates as much.

    If these women want to avoid misogynist scum in their inner circles, maybe they should try not creating racist inner circles.

    Otherwise, they can spare me the “I just want to be racist and be treated like a human being” outcry, especially given the irony of it.
     
  19. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    AH HA HA HAHA HA HAAAAAA.

    Who knew the alt-right was full of misogynists? WHO KNEW?

    ******* hilarious. I honestly thought women with the alt-right were totally down to be treated that way. I thought they were basically volunteering to be submissive little housewives. How could they join the alt-right and not be? The alt-right is very open about their views on women, it's right there, front and center, impossible to miss.

    Idiots. Funniest thing I've read today. Thanks, SateleNovelist.
     
  20. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I saw it posted on my Facebook feed, and I was amused. We have an extremely misogynistic idiot as president who might as well be considered alt-right. What did they expect? A good man would not adhere to such empty-headed b.s.
     
  21. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    So, Karen Pence is alleged to have said that Donald Trump is "reprehensible" and "totally vile." If true, she's right about that. https://www.yahoo.com/news/mike-pence-apos-wife-thinks-142359970.html

    Trump has been shaming accusers at the advent of the #MeToo movement, and that is, indeed, vile example for a president to set. While many of the stories are shocking and grotesque, the good that has come out of this movement is the willingness of women and people of all stripes to come out as they seek justice for the perpetrators of these crimes.