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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate Let's Talk: Feminism

Discussion in 'Community' started by blubeast1237, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
  2. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    Yesterday, I attended a Unitarian Universalist church, and the pastor gave a sermon about the #MeToo movement. Her point was to say that fathers must encourage their sons to never engage in sexual misconduct against women. Doing so makes them good fathers. Fostering humanitarian values in the next generation needs to be a universal goal.
     
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
  4. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Mar 26, 2001
    From the piece:
    "...health care, economic resources, cultural or traditional practices, sexual violence and harassment, non-sexual violence and human trafficking,"

    It would be interesting to see where we would be on just one of those issues alone, especially sexual violence and trafficking. I'm imagining our ranking is still pretty high.
     
  5. crazyewok

    crazyewok Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 27, 2017
  6. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    I'm sorry, the US is bad, but it is not that bad. I have been to many countries in Europe and the middle east not on that list where open harassment, catcalling, and physical groping and grabbing were the norm (looking at you Italy, Greece, Israel). The US has lots of harassment, but not nearly top 10. Nor is it above any southeast Asian nation for trafficking or women's rights. American healthcare is really bad for disadvantaged women, although we do still have medicaid and medicare...which many nations don't have at all.

    This feels like a "hot take" vote rather than founded on actual data. To me things like this just hurt the conversation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    It might also depend on where you are in the US as far as open harassment and catcalling. And “American health care” likely takes into account discrimination against pregnant women (technically illegal but let’s not pretend it doesn’t happen) and a lack of maternity leave, which affects both advantaged and disadvantaged women.
     
  8. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    But how many third world countries also don't have maternity leave, have harassment, discrimination of all kinds, sex trafficking, and almost no medical care for many women?

    Definitely more than ten.

    My point is just that I think they wrote this list with clicks in mind.
     
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  9. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2016
    Well, apparently your "experts" failed to expose the sexual misconduct of Hollywood producers back in 2011 when you compiled your last list. Do you honestly want me to believe that the (ideally objective) ordering changed that much in the space of less than seven years?

    It's almost like you're riding the Harvey Weinstein media wave!

    Oh, wait. You came close to admitting such: "The foundation said the U.S. placement on the dubious list was down largely to the #MeToo and Time's Up campaigns increasing awareness of sexual violence"

    I would have assumed EXPERTS could have uncovered the truth before the PUBLIC.
     
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  10. crazyewok

    crazyewok Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 27, 2017
    But again many places in south America hardly has those rights in practice either.

    I just have trouble believing the US is number ten when a country like Ecuador where domestic abuse and martial rape is the norm, rape itself is rarely taken seriously and a woman place is nothing but eye candy, sex toy and a kitchen appliance. My fiance still gets scared if we have a argument because she thinks I am going to start raining punches down on her (which I would never do) because in her opinion and experience from her father, past boy friends and friends "that's what men do".
     
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  11. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 28, 2004
    A bit outrageous. There are countries that have honor killings and they aren't on this list? Jordan, Sudan, Iran. These are pretty terrible places to be a woman.

    I know, I know, a now unemployed judge let Brock Turner off easy for sexual assault in the US. That certainly makes us worse than these nations that will throw acid in the faces of the assault victims, but hey, we're trying...:rolleyes:

    I know this is controversial, but I would submit that it would be better and safer to be a woman in American that it would be to be a man in any of these other countries.

    This is kind of crazy...
     
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  12. crazyewok

    crazyewok Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 27, 2017
    Exactly. The USA certainly has some issue with women's rights and might not be as good as maybe a few European country's but it is still a dam sight better than most the 3rd world.

    And I would post the horror storys I have heard from a few friends who where doctors/ aid workers in Africa ....... But they might be a little to graphic for this Site . Needless to say women in war zones tend to be raped 3 or 4 times on average and mutilated :( [face_sick]
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    You all are right that CBS probably put this out with “clicks” in mind, and I won’t argue with you further when I don’t have specifics of the study.

    However—“not as good as maybe a few European countries” is precisely my problem with the way the US handles women’s rights. There is no reason that the US can’t do as well as several European countries, or Iceland.

    And I’m not saying this is what you all are doing, it’s not, but “at least the US doesn’t have honor killings” is one argument used to keep the US from making any progress on women’s rights. There is no reason why “don’t throw acid in women’s faces” should be our standard for whether we are doing well in how we treat women. It should be much, much higher than that.
     
  14. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 28, 2004
    My statement wasn't "at least we don't have honor killings!"

    My statement is;"How in the world can they honestly list us in 10th place above all the countries that have honor killings?!"

    It's the perfect example of why I, and those of my ilk, call "FAKE NEWS" when we hear something that doesn't make sense.
     
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  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    My point still stands: “Better than countries that have honor killings” is not my standard for women’s rights. If we think we are doing OK in the US because we don’t have honor killings, we should be ashamed of having such low standards.

    The “fake news” issue doesn’t belong in this thread, it can go back in US Politics, and I will take “fake news” calls more seriously when one “real news” source that criticizes Trump is cited. That has literally never happened, and I’ve asked multiple times. I posted a link about sources yesterday in that thread as well, about “real” and “fake” on both sides of the political spectrum.

    On this article, I’m going to see if I can find the rest of the study and see why we were placed at tenth.
     
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  16. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

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    Mar 12, 2005
    Here's the Thomas Reuters Foundation page for the survey..

    http://poll2017.trust.org

    hmmm.... I don't see the US on the poll results... wtf?

    Oh, I see... this is a "most dangerous cities" survey done by the same foundation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  17. TiniTinyTony

    TiniTinyTony JCC Super Bowl Pick 'Em Winner star 7 VIP - Game Winner

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    Mar 9, 2003
    From the article in question:

    "The United States has been ranked for the first time among the 10 nations deemed to be the most dangerous for women by experts in the field. A survey by the Thomson Reuters Foundation of about 550 experts in women's issues around the globe labeled the U.S. the 10th most dangerous nation in terms of the risk of sexual violence, harassment and being coerced into sex."

    "The foundation asked the experts which five of the 193 United Nations member states they felt were "most dangerous for women and which country was worst in terms of health care, economic resources, cultural or traditional practices, sexual violence and harassment, non-sexual violence and human trafficking," according to the foundation's article on the survey."​

    So out of 550 completed surveys, it sounds like the questions involved were related to (1) risk of sexual violence, (2) harassment, (3) being coerced into sex, (4) health care, (5) economic resources, (6) cultural or traditional practices, and (7) non-sexual violence and human trafficking.

    Without seeing the actually survey, I'm sure there were questions like, "I feel safe from human trafficking - Agree, Somewhat Agree, Neither Agree/Disagree, Somewhat disagree, Disagree.."

    Did the survey ask? - "If I bring dishonor to my family, I am worried about being killed - Agree, Somewhat Agree, Neither Agree/Disagree, Somewhat disagree, Disagree."

    I don't know. So more knowledge of the type of questions and knowing the data behind it would answer the question. The point of the article is that while American woman might not feel danger of being killed by their family, they responded negatively enough to the OTHER questions on the survey to be in the 10 top.
     
  18. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

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    Mar 12, 2005
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  19. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    So they polled experts instead of looking at the actual data? Also megacity data is usually not the same as data in the rest of a country.

    If sexual harassment visibility because of the #metoo movement is the main factor in the US being top 10 worse... I don't know, I'm not an expert, but when I've traveled to some other countries they had urinals where it and the wall were painted and shaped to look like women's mouths, a cousin being asked by a stranger about "selling" her to him to be one of his wives, etc., and being told "that's just the culture here, no one to complain to."

    EDIT:

    Looking into the methodology page more, they're only looking at NYC. And the only category NYC is in #10 is "economic opportunity." But that's just as much a problem in NYC for men as for women. I'm not sure why experts voted NYC so high/low in it.

    And they only looked at 19 cities worldwide. And again, not at data, but polling "experts."

    So yeah, I'm going to call the headline on the US now being the 10th worst country for women as Clickbait BS, if it was just based on this study.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Here is a more detailed article from Reuters

    Looks like this is a repeated survey from 2011, in which the US did not rank at the top, but the #MeToo movement has made women more outspoken about what has happened to us.

    548 women were surveyed across several countries and continents, so it’s a qualitative survey and not quantative. Crazyewok mentioned Ecuador; it’s possible that no one there was surveyed.

    I’m sure “Are you in danger of being killed for bringing dishonor to your family” was not there but I’m not sure it should be, given that that’s an abysmally low bar. An answer of “no” does not mean there is no danger to the woman whatsoever.
     
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  21. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 28, 2004
    So you're saying, basically, if you leave out the worst acts of violence and the lowest of depravity, then what you have left is the US?

    'Cause now I'm confused.
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I’m saying that “country does not have honor killings” does not equal “country has the best possible record on women’s rights and is a country that other countries should emulate.” And my standard is the latter.

    And as I said a few posts ago, too many people will use “The US does not have honor killings” as an argument that the US is doing just fine on women’s rights and no further progress is needed. And that’s BS.
     
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  23. crazyewok

    crazyewok Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 27, 2017
    No one's saying the USA should be content with its current standard or that it doesn't have a lot of issues to sort out.
    Just that its not 10th worst in the world.

    And asking 500 women across the world is not really a proper survey as it does not give any sort of really picture.

    Ideally you would want to ask 1000 in EACH country.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I don’t think that Reuters should have come to that conclusion without a larger sample and I should have looked further at the methodology they used before posting the link.

    Clickbaity or not, the low standing of the US in comparison to other first-world democracies is still worth looking at, and how the US can become the one with a record on women’s rights comparable to Iceland or one of the Nordic countries.
     
  25. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

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    Feb 27, 2013
    Absolutely rife on the Klingon homeworld.
     
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