Senate Let's Talk: Feminism

Discussion in 'Community' started by blubeast1237, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    i just thought it was funny that you mentioned flexibility, a strong immune system, and a longer lifespan when we were talking about whether women could meet the physical fitness requirements for military service.
    Last edited by wannasee, Aug 9, 2014
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    Maybe because I actually know people in the military and they will tell you that no one in the military actually wants a bodybuilder physique? Yes, physical strength is important and in no way should women who can't meet a set of general requirements be boosted up simply because they're women. But there's a lot more to military service than that. Flexibility is actually important to fitness-- a lot of supposedly fit bodybuilders, for example, can't even touch their toes. As is immune system because, although soldiers are vaccinated, they're often deployed to foreign countries where they're exposed to a lot of potential antigens that they wouldn't otherwise encounter.

    I say this because one of the men I most respect in the world -- a Marine -- told me some of the best soldiers he knew were women, especially pilots. Physical strength is important, but it shouldn't be the end-all-be-all measure.
  3. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    who's talking about bodybuilders? or saying that flexibility isn't important? or saying that a strong immune system isn't a good thing to have?

    anakinfan said that women had an "equal" fitness level to men and that they weren't weaker, which is so obviously UNTRUE that i had laugh. that's all that's going on here.
  4. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    Because fitness isn't defined as just your ability to lift things. Same with strength. If she'd said physical strength, muscle mass, lifting capacity, I'd see your point but I think we just took two different meanings out of it.

    Flexibility and immune system are absolutely a huge part of fitness and health.

    Note that I'm using the following definition of fitness:

    the condition of being physically fit and healthy
  5. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    lmao fitness is the condition of being physically fit? really? you think?

    it doesn't make sense for you to take "overall physical fitness" as her meaning for fitness in a post about meeting physical fitness requirements for military service. and even if it did make sense, which it doesn't, men and women certainly don't have an "equal" level of fitness. Men are faster and stronger, while women are more flexible with stronger immune systems...

    also, flexibility and immune system aren't very important when talking about meeting the military requirements for fitness. i think you need to be able to touch your toes and be able to survive outside of a plastic bubble.
    Last edited by wannasee, Aug 9, 2014
  6. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    Maybe because muscle mass isn't everything? There's always a balance that has to be struck between endurance and strength. The more muscle mass you have won't necessarily make you a better endurance runner, for instance. A lot of really great endurance runners are very, very slim. At the same time, though, if you don't have enough muscle mass, you won't be able to lift the heavy equipment that's required. In the military, they strike a balance between these aspects so, yes, women can most definitely meet the criteria since physical strength isn't the only thing that's being looked at, but rather, the ability to get the job done. Which means we're looking at an overall level of fitness, not just one or two things. You have to meet standards for the military, but it isn't a competition to see who can bench press the most.

    So, yeah, I am looking at "overall physical fitness" because being strong and fast, while important, aren't the only thing that matter. And if women can meet up to the standard that's been set, that's all that matters.

    Not to mention other important factors -- like vision, dexterity, etc. -- which are all incredibly important.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Aug 9, 2014
  7. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    lol who said muscle mass was everything? who said any of the things you are arguing against?

    stop with the strawman arguments already.
  8. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    What exactly is your position on anything? All I've seen you do is come in and contradict anything she posts. You've never actually given your thoughts on the matter. I'm curious, wannasee, how do you feel about feminism?
  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    *Sigh*

    You said it's untrue that women are as fit and strong as men. I pointed out that, yes, while women have less muscle mass and can lift less than men, that doesn't mean they are less fit, since fitness involves a whole host of factors (endurance, flexibility, immune system, etc.) and that strength doesn't have to mean only physical strength -- which is the meaning you took out of it. If women can pass the standards set by the military then there's no issue.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Aug 9, 2014
  10. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    fitness is this context only means the ability to run around quickly and do pullups. why you are going on about things that have nothing to do with that is beyond me.
  11. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    Umm…you're joking right? You do realize there's a lot more to being in the military than that I hope…
  12. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    we're talking about fitness requirements...

    i never have an opinion on any "ism".

    Give me something concrete to talk about and i will happily share what i think.
    Last edited by wannasee, Aug 9, 2014
  13. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Yes, and I said that as long as women meet a general minimum standard, what's the problem?

    Sure, men might have some advantages in some areas of fitness, but women have others. That doesn't make men inherently more fit than women or inherently "stronger" (except for physical strength) since both of these take into account a variety of factors. It just means men have inherent advantages when it comes to lifting things, not that they're more fit.

    Maybe we're in agreement and we're just using different definitions?
    Juliet316 and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  14. blubeast1237 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2007
    star 5

    No opinion on any ism....what the **** does that mean? :p

    Like, I really want to hear the explanation on this.
    Darth Rycbar and Juliet316 like this.
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I know you mentioned your friend, and @dp4m gave his opinion as well. I'm interested in more opinions from intelligent JCers who have been in the military on this issue.
    Juliet316 likes this.
  16. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    i think so. i'm using the definition that was appropriate in context and you are using another one to make a point that no one disagrees with, namely, that other things contribute to overall health than those that are tested for on military fitness tests.
    Last edited by wannasee, Aug 9, 2014
  17. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    If I recall, you just dropped in with a "lol" to anakinfan's post while I was describing the meaning that I took from her post -- that despite the fact that men have certain advantages, women have advantages in other areas and both sexes can be equally fit and strong.

    But I apologize for not discerning your meaning from your "lol" -- my mistake.
    Rogue1-and-a-half likes this.
  18. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Kind of off topic, but talking about military requirements reminded me of something my friend used to do. He's quite a bit older than me -- he was in his mid-40s when I was 19 and he used to go around and complain about how as he was getting older his vision was dropping to 20/20. Yeah…dropping to 20/20. He was an elite pilot and had 20/10 vision in his earlier years.

    And given that I'm legally blind (freaking worse than 20/200), I would just roll my eyes at him and he'd always get this really abashed look on his face. Which was quite amusing, I won't lie.

    It was the weirdest dynamic though…because I had seniority in our work setting, but he had kids older than me and decades more life experience and yet he'd come in every day and ask me what we were going to do. It took some getting used to, but he was the nicest man.

    Anyway, I'm not disagreeing that strength doesn't play a big role in a career in the military. It's just that there's so much more to it nowadays, especially with increasing automation and reliance on technology. It just seems silly to me to try to say women can't do this or can't do that. Because as long as women meet the standard, there's a lot they can offer.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Aug 9, 2014
  19. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8

    @Souderwan
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    My best friend from high school wanted to go into the Air Force but knew he would not make pilot due to his vision (which was not much worse than 20/20). I can't see well up close but my distance vision is 20/15 in one eye and 20/10.

    The larger point is what you and dp4m have said: any woman or man who can meet the physical requirements should be allowed in. And I think women currently serving in the military have proven that they can, for example, carry over 100 pounds on their backs in the desert heat.

    If anyone here is making the argument that no woman should ever be allowed to serve in the military, come back and talk to me when no woman can ever meet the physical fitness requirements and when no man has ever failed a military physical fitness test.

    Otherwise the stereotypes need to be buried in the past where they belong and let each candidate be judged by the quality of his or her physical fitness, not by his or her genitalia.

    @harpua, I won't tag Souderwan again and blow up his alerts but I'm interested in his take as well.
    Darth Rycbar and Juliet316 like this.
  21. blubeast1237 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2007
    star 5

    I think an analysis on these standards should take place, to begin with. It reminds me of a discussion about women in sports. We should analyze the physical requirements to see if they are legitimate in the first place.
  22. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Noundy's already pretty on record with support for women in the Navy, the existing Naval standards for women and his approval at the recently promoted woman admiral as far as I can recall (and women are doing really, really well in the Navy as well, IIRC, since the fitness standards are not nearly as high as either Army or, specifically, Marines).

    Don't want to put words in his mouth, but pretty sure he's expressed all of that in other previous threads.
  23. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    Pfft, what would a sailor know about fitness?

    (Hi souderwan)
    Souderwan likes this.
  24. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    "If anyone here is making the argument that no woman should ever be allowed to serve in the military,"

    No one is
  25. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    It's also ironic to imply people with depression aren't qualified for employment, when unemployment itself leads to depression.