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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate Let's Talk: Feminism

Discussion in 'Community' started by blubeast1237, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    i just thought it was funny that you mentioned flexibility, a strong immune system, and a longer lifespan when we were talking about whether women could meet the physical fitness requirements for military service.
     
  2. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011

    Maybe because I actually know people in the military and they will tell you that no one in the military actually wants a bodybuilder physique? Yes, physical strength is important and in no way should women who can't meet a set of general requirements be boosted up simply because they're women. But there's a lot more to military service than that. Flexibility is actually important to fitness-- a lot of supposedly fit bodybuilders, for example, can't even touch their toes. As is immune system because, although soldiers are vaccinated, they're often deployed to foreign countries where they're exposed to a lot of potential antigens that they wouldn't otherwise encounter.

    I say this because one of the men I most respect in the world -- a Marine -- told me some of the best soldiers he knew were women, especially pilots. Physical strength is important, but it shouldn't be the end-all-be-all measure.
     
  3. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    who's talking about bodybuilders? or saying that flexibility isn't important? or saying that a strong immune system isn't a good thing to have?

    anakinfan said that women had an "equal" fitness level to men and that they weren't weaker, which is so obviously UNTRUE that i had laugh. that's all that's going on here.
     
  4. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011

    Because fitness isn't defined as just your ability to lift things. Same with strength. If she'd said physical strength, muscle mass, lifting capacity, I'd see your point but I think we just took two different meanings out of it.

    Flexibility and immune system are absolutely a huge part of fitness and health.

    Note that I'm using the following definition of fitness:

    the condition of being physically fit and healthy
     
  5. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    lmao fitness is the condition of being physically fit? really? you think?

    it doesn't make sense for you to take "overall physical fitness" as her meaning for fitness in a post about meeting physical fitness requirements for military service. and even if it did make sense, which it doesn't, men and women certainly don't have an "equal" level of fitness. Men are faster and stronger, while women are more flexible with stronger immune systems...

    also, flexibility and immune system aren't very important when talking about meeting the military requirements for fitness. i think you need to be able to touch your toes and be able to survive outside of a plastic bubble.
     
  6. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011

    Maybe because muscle mass isn't everything? There's always a balance that has to be struck between endurance and strength. The more muscle mass you have won't necessarily make you a better endurance runner, for instance. A lot of really great endurance runners are very, very slim. At the same time, though, if you don't have enough muscle mass, you won't be able to lift the heavy equipment that's required. In the military, they strike a balance between these aspects so, yes, women can most definitely meet the criteria since physical strength isn't the only thing that's being looked at, but rather, the ability to get the job done. Which means we're looking at an overall level of fitness, not just one or two things. You have to meet standards for the military, but it isn't a competition to see who can bench press the most.

    So, yeah, I am looking at "overall physical fitness" because being strong and fast, while important, aren't the only thing that matter. And if women can meet up to the standard that's been set, that's all that matters.

    Not to mention other important factors -- like vision, dexterity, etc. -- which are all incredibly important.
     
  7. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    lol who said muscle mass was everything? who said any of the things you are arguing against?

    stop with the strawman arguments already.
     
  8. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    What exactly is your position on anything? All I've seen you do is come in and contradict anything she posts. You've never actually given your thoughts on the matter. I'm curious, wannasee, how do you feel about feminism?
     
  9. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011

    *Sigh*

    You said it's untrue that women are as fit and strong as men. I pointed out that, yes, while women have less muscle mass and can lift less than men, that doesn't mean they are less fit, since fitness involves a whole host of factors (endurance, flexibility, immune system, etc.) and that strength doesn't have to mean only physical strength -- which is the meaning you took out of it. If women can pass the standards set by the military then there's no issue.
     
  10. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    fitness is this context only means the ability to run around quickly and do pullups. why you are going on about things that have nothing to do with that is beyond me.
     
  11. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011

    Umm…you're joking right? You do realize there's a lot more to being in the military than that I hope…
     
  12. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    we're talking about fitness requirements...

    i never have an opinion on any "ism".

    Give me something concrete to talk about and i will happily share what i think.
     
  13. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Yes, and I said that as long as women meet a general minimum standard, what's the problem?

    Sure, men might have some advantages in some areas of fitness, but women have others. That doesn't make men inherently more fit than women or inherently "stronger" (except for physical strength) since both of these take into account a variety of factors. It just means men have inherent advantages when it comes to lifting things, not that they're more fit.

    Maybe we're in agreement and we're just using different definitions?
     
  14. blubeast1237

    blubeast1237 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2007

    No opinion on any ism....what the **** does that mean? :p

    Like, I really want to hear the explanation on this.
     
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  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I know you mentioned your friend, and dp4m gave his opinion as well. I'm interested in more opinions from intelligent JCers who have been in the military on this issue.
     
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  16. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2007
    i think so. i'm using the definition that was appropriate in context and you are using another one to make a point that no one disagrees with, namely, that other things contribute to overall health than those that are tested for on military fitness tests.
     
  17. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    If I recall, you just dropped in with a "lol" to anakinfan's post while I was describing the meaning that I took from her post -- that despite the fact that men have certain advantages, women have advantages in other areas and both sexes can be equally fit and strong.

    But I apologize for not discerning your meaning from your "lol" -- my mistake.
     
    Rogue1-and-a-half likes this.
  18. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Kind of off topic, but talking about military requirements reminded me of something my friend used to do. He's quite a bit older than me -- he was in his mid-40s when I was 19 and he used to go around and complain about how as he was getting older his vision was dropping to 20/20. Yeah…dropping to 20/20. He was an elite pilot and had 20/10 vision in his earlier years.

    And given that I'm legally blind (freaking worse than 20/200), I would just roll my eyes at him and he'd always get this really abashed look on his face. Which was quite amusing, I won't lie.

    It was the weirdest dynamic though…because I had seniority in our work setting, but he had kids older than me and decades more life experience and yet he'd come in every day and ask me what we were going to do. It took some getting used to, but he was the nicest man.

    Anyway, I'm not disagreeing that strength doesn't play a big role in a career in the military. It's just that there's so much more to it nowadays, especially with increasing automation and reliance on technology. It just seems silly to me to try to say women can't do this or can't do that. Because as long as women meet the standard, there's a lot they can offer.
     
  19. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005

    Souderwan
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    My best friend from high school wanted to go into the Air Force but knew he would not make pilot due to his vision (which was not much worse than 20/20). I can't see well up close but my distance vision is 20/15 in one eye and 20/10.

    The larger point is what you and dp4m have said: any woman or man who can meet the physical requirements should be allowed in. And I think women currently serving in the military have proven that they can, for example, carry over 100 pounds on their backs in the desert heat.

    If anyone here is making the argument that no woman should ever be allowed to serve in the military, come back and talk to me when no woman can ever meet the physical fitness requirements and when no man has ever failed a military physical fitness test.

    Otherwise the stereotypes need to be buried in the past where they belong and let each candidate be judged by the quality of his or her physical fitness, not by his or her genitalia.

    harpua, I won't tag Souderwan again and blow up his alerts but I'm interested in his take as well.
     
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  21. blubeast1237

    blubeast1237 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2007

    I think an analysis on these standards should take place, to begin with. It reminds me of a discussion about women in sports. We should analyze the physical requirements to see if they are legitimate in the first place.
     
  22. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Noundy's already pretty on record with support for women in the Navy, the existing Naval standards for women and his approval at the recently promoted woman admiral as far as I can recall (and women are doing really, really well in the Navy as well, IIRC, since the fitness standards are not nearly as high as either Army or, specifically, Marines).

    Don't want to put words in his mouth, but pretty sure he's expressed all of that in other previous threads.
     
  23. EmpireForever

    EmpireForever Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Pfft, what would a sailor know about fitness?

    (Hi souderwan)
     
    Souderwan likes this.
  24. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    "If anyone here is making the argument that no woman should ever be allowed to serve in the military,"

    No one is
     
  25. VanishingReality

    VanishingReality Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 21, 2013
    It's also ironic to imply people with depression aren't qualified for employment, when unemployment itself leads to depression.