PT Lie vs the Truth (Palpatine Father) vs (Shmi Mother)

Intentional or not?

Discuss.

I love.... I love.... Shmi to Son ("I am so proud (Truth) of you " "Now I am complete") She has no more wish than to have seen him become a Jedi.




I love Democracy , I love The Republic ( Actually its a lie! Intention is the Republic evolving to Empire) (I will lay down when this crisis has abated...actually he won't till he leads completely to what becomes the Galactic Empire). He also has plans for Anakin to become a Sith)




MJ

 

Interesting thread! Further proves that Palpatine probably was Anakin's father.

 

Hmmm. Not sure about that but what I can say here is "Father" Palpatine looks a bit sickly like Anakin's mother (but in her case she is battered from the abduction).

MJ

 

The way I approach this is that, as Anakin's mother was very influential on him, teaching him about good, Palpatine was a father figure to him and was as influential on him, but on the wrong side.

 

Yes, that's fine.

And in the middle of all this Padme. A replacement female figure (who happens to be older than Anakin) and Love interest becoming future wife.

Mother says "I Love..." , "Palpatine says "I Love.." and Padme "I Love..."

MJ

 

Which reminds of what Ian McDiarmid said about Revenge of the Sith: "If you want a subtitle for these movies, it could be Fathers and Sons" (at 1:14):

 

Isn't Anakin was concieved by the Midi-Chlorians? Because of Sidious and Plaguies was intensley meditating to influence the force to the dark side.

So the force started hating both Jedi and Sith and send Anakin through Shmi to wipe 'em all out.

I guess then you could call Sidious and Plagueis as Anakin's father.
I wonder did Sidious knew that Anakin was what he and Sidious created

 

Conkhead_12 Obviously MJ is talking about about Palpatine seen as father FIGURE, because in time he becomes something like 'civil' mentor to Anakin (the Jedi mentor was of course, Obi Wan).
So I understand why this mirroring is made, but I think the words of Obi Wan (as the Jedi father) and Palpatine (as the no-Jedi father) are also interesting to compare.
For example: You have to learn, be mindful vs. you don't need guidance. Obi Wan said: use the force. Think and Palpatine: you can learn to trust your feelings and you'll be invincible. Etc, etc.
I'm wondering about any mirrors between Shmi and Padme. Is obvious that both loved Anakin unconditionally, it is shown in the movie, but it is shown also in the dialogue?

 

As I don't have really much time to spend on this board as much as I would like to, just like to mention again that Padme being older than Anakin and having huge responsibilities as a young Queen now Senator still with responsibilities that alone imo shows a mother like figure to Anakin.

Secondly Anakin started talking about love in the transport, he is actually moving into a replacement figure with Padme as a love interest who he has thought about "ever since we parted " as like his mother.

Later we see Anakin asking if Padme has been suffering as much as him. The day after he tells Padme that Shmi is suffering. Only then does react to Anakin joining him against the mandate. Also Padme tells Anakin " my goodness you've grown " certainly attracted to his handsome looks. Shmi says " you like so handsome...my grown up son" . Padme even said "Anakin youve grown up" . In which Obi Wan manages not to see it.

See where I'm going with this?

Later guys and cheers!

MJ

 

Interesting thoughts. Only one little detail: in that scene in Padme‘s apartment (that is one of my favorite of whole Saga) I think the essence exactly the opposite: despite that Anakin had grown up as handsome young man, Padme recognizes him. He is the same little boy of Tattoine no matter that he is grown up now. That says a lot about her affection to Anakin still in this scene: only a person who really knows the other one, who really cares for him can recognize him inmediatelly after such change, because, let‘s face it, if someone hasn‘t see Ep.1 before this and watch it after is, it is possible to recognize Ani without being told? I doubt so.
So I accept this mirroring more as my grown up Ani who is the same inside: and both women share that thought.

 

MarcJordan brilliant catch! I'd also wondered at how sickly Palpatine looks there, but never linked it to mirroring Shmi.

In general the theme of mothers in the PT is one I feel would reward much further exploration.

In this respect I think Vader vs Anakin is a relevant distinction:

1. (a) Palpatine is not Anakin's father-figure; Obi-Wan is -- Anakin says so twice in AotC and it is visually and narratively implied in RotS [I've argued elsewhere for this point]

(b) Yet Palpatine seems incontrovertibly intended to be understood as some kind of father-figure -- one that creates, fertilises. But of what or whom? His creations are the Empire -- and, more relevantly, Vader. He lay and nurtured the seeds of both in the Republic and Anakin.

2. But the distinction between Anakin's "father" and Vader's got me thinking about mothers, whom Lucas has said the PT is about in the same way the OT was about fathers. Shmi is obviously enough Vader's biological mother. But who was Vader's maternal figure? In whose womb was that mechanical monstrosity grown? The more I considered it and combed through the PT for clues, the more I thought that the answer is: the Jedi Order, and perhaps more specifically Obi-Wan. It was to the Jedi Order's bosom, to Obi-Wan's care and nurturing, that nine-year-old Anakin -- generous, openhearted, kind -- was entrusted, and at the end of it out came Darth Vader! It was in the context of the Jedi Order (through very little fault of their own, I hasten to add, and mostly due to circumstance) that Palpatine found fertile ground for seeding Anakin's mistrust and fears. Narratively, this becomes so explicit in RotS -- Anakin's "off-record" assignment is the obvious one -- but even in AotC we can see this: Jedi and Clones, who prefigure the machine-man image of Vader. The Jedi, as represented by Obi-Wan and Sifo-Dyas, become responsible for the Clones, but it seems through the "insemination" of Palpatine's instigation/manipulation (through Tyranus...).

I am not in any way or degree blaming the Jedi for Anakin's fall on a psychological, emotional, fictito-historical level. And I would go to the wall to defend Obi-Wan as a teacher and parent. This is an abstract thought, considering Vader distinctly from Anakin at the level of narrative images and archtypes.

 

I think you are right , Palpatine is Vader's, not Anakin's father figure. And he creates this pesona, twisting Anakin's mind. The monstrosity couldn't have mother figure, of course, because it is not real being, it is a mask, a costume, something twisted from real perso. Interesting iterpretation.

 

Thanks. It was the sickly looks that alerted me to think more about Shmi and Palpatine. Then I noticed how they both spoke similarly, which influenced Anakin's fall to Vader. Which are only the tip of the iceberg, how multifaceted GL has crafted his story and that is just, I can't say this more than enough...genius!

I agree now with this. Good call and nice work.

Yes! I'd like to add that Palpatine also said "I am the Senate!" So he's actually created the Senate as well.

Deserving another

Cheers!

MJ

 

Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship always was more of an older/younger sibling type relationship. Anakin didn't respect Obi-Wan like he would a father. I think Palpatine did play that fatherly role in Anakin's life.

 

When Anakin told Padme "he's like my father" I think its exactly what he meant.

MJ

 

i don't know. i thought shmi let her son have a free reign really and he was already pretty egotistical when we first see him. i can't really see shmi as the most noble person ever. i mean she was very good and there was nothing wrong with the guidance she did provide. but i just think that little ani was already not on the best path when we first see him. it was too important to him to be special (exceptional), he wielded so much control already... and shmi was so set on him having better opportunities (perhaps it was her wish for herself before, but now could be fulfilled through her son) that she didn't seem to see that the ache of separation would be too much for him. really shmi was the first messed up relationship he had. and i'm not sure what the solution was (there isn't any blame). it was just so wrong from the beginning though.

 

"You are the closest thing I have to a father, master" - Anakin Skywalker, AOTC.
I agree that Obi Wan and Anakin's dynamic was more as brothers and bestfriends, but that only seemed to occur when fighting side by side in the CW, and Anakin maturing and gaining his knight status. I don't see Palps so much as a father figure to Anakin, but a mentor and a generous uncle of some sorts. Someone who feigns unconditional love, but does not feel it as Anakin is NOT his child. Instead he's the "cool" relative that lets Anakin get away doing things they both know he shouldn't be doing, and then gets the extra rep for not ratting on him or scolding him for it.