Discussion Light Saber Duels - OT or PT style?

Even at the time, I think it was a pretty poor effort for an actual duel. Sure, Kenobi was older, but he was still only 57. Dooku wasn't slowed down by age at all, at 80+ years I believe, but yeah, that would only be a good argument if Lucas did not make the movies up as he went along.

The acting was all fine, and I really enjoyed Guiness in ANH, but it wasn't much of a fight. It was some hopping and some poking. Vader 'looked' as old as Kenobi.
To me it always looked like: Poke, hop, poke, circle, poke. Kenobi: K kill me noa plx. It never really looked like a fight to me.

PT fights are much more satisfying for me to watch, Choreographically, and visually.

 

Easy for me PT. Nothing beats a well choreographed fight scene especially if they were to add a few force moves in as well. I do like the fight scenes in OT but they always looked really slow, almost as if they where trying to out think one another rather then out fight one another. But I guess age does slow you down a lot.

But to me as I say I like an energetic, fast paced and all guns blazing kind of fight.

 

I like the slowness of the OT fights. The PT fights can be too just a bit too fast paced for my likeing at times.

 

I’m hoping more for PT lightsaber fights, they always kept me on the edge of my seat and they were just as meaningful to the story as the OT’s battles were. There is a problem with this though, the Jedi Order is destroyed, and the only one who could teach Luke was an old guy who turned into the force, and a green hermit who he only visited twice, not to mention the Jedi trained in the PT were brought to the Order at an earlier age than Luke.

What I am saying is that Luke isn’t the most experienced Jedi, and he needs to start fresh. This doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be fights similar the PT’s but instead they should be a mix of the PT and the OT. Luke is more experienced in the force now, so he can most likely jump and fight just as good as the PT Jedi. The thing is, the Jedi don’t have as much experience, so my guess is most of the fights will be like Anakin vs Dooku (both of the fights) and Luke vs Vader. (Both fights as well) But every so often they will tap into their inner Jedi and Duel the way Anakin and Obi Wan did on Mustafar.

As more movies get made I suspect all the battles to start to feel like Mustafar, Yoda vs Dooku, and the duels with Sideous that the PT showcased. Mainly cause they are awesome, but also because the Jedi are most likely becoming more skilled.


Then again I could be completely wrong……

 

The fight in the OT was indeed between an old man and an old man in a life support suit. Of course it was going to be slower and less flashy. Anything else would have been unbelievable. The best fight of the OT, in my opinion, was between Luke and Vader in TESB. Vader was in control and Luke was just learning, but showed some real ability. He gave Vader a run for his money. The battle in ROTJ wasn't meant to be precise and measured like the PT. Vader ticked Luke off and Luke went at him in full anger, swinging wildly and not giving a damn what he hit in the process. That was the whole point of that scene: Luke coming dangerously close to the Dark Side.

The PT battles gave us lots of flash, flips and so on, but there was no real reason, in my opinion. So what if they were in their prime? Why expend all that extra energy? And the dialogue between Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS was truly horrible.

So yes, it is a matter of opinion. I just prefer to look deeper than all that flash.

 

If we're talking about age. It all goes out of wack. Qui-Gon was older in APM that Kenobi is in ANH. Dooku was much older than both. Granted, Kenobi was out of practice. But if Qui-Gon and Dooku can continue to jump, twirl and be bad-asses well into their 60's and beyond, I wonder why Kenobi only shuffles around. He is at least as strong in the force as those two, or close enough that a gap in abilities like that would make no sense.

It is no use to try to explain it, in universe, in my opinion, because compared to comparable jedi of comparable or greater age, Obi looks like an invalid in ANH. If seen from an in-universe standpoint, it makes absolutely no sense at all.

We all know why it is less flashy in OT, a restriction of their times, technology, and possibly money. There is no deeper in-universe reason that is not busted by the PT, in my opinion.

 

I can understand if you like them better but how can they be more "meaningful"? OT duels involved a lot of dialogue and they were very personal because of the fight between father and son and master and pupil.

In the PT the only time the duel was as personal as the OT ones was the fight between Obi and Anakin.

Btw. Luke was a fully trained Jedi knight in RotJ. He doesn't need to become as powerful as PT Jedi, because he already was. Just because an 80ties movie looks different than one of today shouldn't be taken as proof that the protagonists of the 80ties films were any less powerful. Because if we start to argue like that then obviously Grievous (of the CW cartoon) and Starkiller are the most überpowerful BAMFS.

 

*sigh*
*opens up ANH and forwards to the duel*

 

The ANH duel is really more like a real life Kendo match then the other duels in both the PT and the OT. The movement of both men is more forward and back with a few moments of circling. It is alot of parry and riposte in it.

the ESB duel is the best though, especially Vader(portrayed by the late great Bob Anderson) using one hand during the early parts.

 

Stop trying to put words into my mouth, I didn't say they were more meaningful, I think both of them are meaningful. The PT has meaningful parts in every single battle, Qui Gon died in one, Dooku was killed in one, Obi Wan burned Anakin in one, The Emperor revealed himself as the Sith Lord, and Grievous was killed by Obi Wan in one. Every single one of the things I described are just as meaningful in the PT as they are in the OT. Each of the battles have their own moments.

I disagree, Anakin chopping off Dooku's head was an important part of his story, and Qui Gon's death had a massive impact on both Anakin and more so Obi Wan!

It depends, the PT Jedi could have been using a different form than Luke in the OT, remember I am trying to think about this from an In Universe point of view. The styles have changed, and so did the ways to train and fight. Also, perhaps the Jedi became arrogant (Yoda even said that they were becoming arrogant) so maybe they used their agility to be show offs, but I don't suspect this to be the truth. Now that I think about it, I think the only difference really was the way Luke was trained, and he could learn new forms of of lightsaber dueling.

I'll probably have redefine this theory once the movie is released though!

What movie are you watching?

 

Same one as you. I laugh at the dialogue Anakin blurts out during the fight with Obi in the lava.

 

1 insignificant CIS leader, easy to replace. His presence doesn't change a single thing about Palpatines plans. You could easily excise him from the trilogy and no damage.
2 no, that happened before the duel
3 even more insignificant CIS leader

Qui-Gon's death also only matters because Anakin is given to Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan does a bad job as a teacher. Though I am not sure if that was what the movies meant to show us.

 

*fixed*

I have to agree with Darth_Pevra here, the OT duels are more... personal

 

For me, I think we will see both styles. If Mark Hamill has a duel, it will more than likely be OT style. Let's face it, he is getting older and the odds of him being able to pull off PT style moves is fairly remote. Plus it would make sense that he would continue to fight the way he did in the OT. Now for younger Jedi Knights, I can see them having a more flashy form. They will be in better shape and more flexible to pull off some of the moves we see in the PT. I would love for there to be a scene in the movie showing young Jedi in a combat training area learning and honing their skills.

 

I doubt we'll ever see OT style lightsaber fighting again. Nowadays we are just used to the characters moving fast and flashy. Even a character like the hulk is shown as being very fast and nimble. If Hamill is to fight they'll simply use a stuntman.

 

Opinions are opinions, I personally though that was some of the greatest dialog in Star Wars history.

You forget that Anakin chopped his head off, and it wasn't the Jedi way, and after the battle he refused to leave Obi Wan behind when Palpatine was telling him to.

Don't forget Palps got his face disfigured in it, and at the final part of the battle Anakin tried to save him, but instead he brought about a death of a Jedi, and his fall to evil.

You got me on this one, it may not have been as personal as ESB and ROTJ duels, but it was meaningful

How was Obi Wan a bad teacher? Other than Anakin turning to the dark side I don't see anywhere he failed, all I see is Palpatine laughing in the back ground, he is the one who pulled the strings! Qui-Gon's death also took an emotional tole on Obi Wan, not to mention it is Qui GOn who taught Obi Wan how to become a force ghost.

Don't get me wrong, I understand your guy's opinions and respect them. For me though I see the most important and personal duel to be the duel on Mustafar. I also see the Yoda vs Sideous duel personal, I mean the guy sent a fallen Jedi to destroy his fellow Jedi, this was Yoda's last chance to stop him, and he failed. Sure there are some duels in the PT that aren't really personal, for instance as important it could arguably be, Obi Wan vs Grievous wasn't personal,nor was Anakin vs Dooku round one, but remember the OT only had 3 duels, the PT had lot more (and that's the way I like it!)

Did they use a stunt man for Mace Windu's duel in Episode 3?

Also I'm hoping they use both OT and PT styles some how

Now that would be awesome!

 

So? Before that he slaughtered a village, children included. Dooku wasn't an important stepping stone if he ever was one at all.

Like cutting off a guys hand is worse or more important than the Tusken massacre.

When he doesn't follow his own advice, doesn't do a thing about the recurring nightmares of his pupil and lets him guard a senator he has the hots for.

Btw. you are not helping your case. If you think that OBW was a good teacher, then QG's existence in the story doesn't matter and then in turn his death doesn't matter. TPM could've worked with Obi-Wan in the role of QG. The entire character was redundant.

 

So? Before that he slaughtered a village, children included. Dooku wasn't an important stepping stone if he ever was one at all.

The difference is that Dooku wasn't a threat to anybody when Anakin executed him. His demeanor at the Tusken village was out of control-he went on a rampage born out of anger. Dooku? He looked down at a guy he had completely helpless and defeated and decided he was going to kill him. Quite a bit different from flipping out while your mom dies in your arms.

It's quite a bit different and thinking Dooku's murder is the same as what happened in the Tusken village is a pretty big jump.

 

I dunno. Doesn't seem like a jump to me, personally. It takes a lot to strike down unarmed and defenseless women and children, repeatedly, until no one is left, even in anger.

It would probably been difficult to get Dooku off the ship anyway.

 

The context is still vastly different, though. It's pretty clear Anakin wasn't thinking rationally at the Tusken camp-he comes out of the tent practically snarling. Dooku? perfectly calm. And again, Dooku was no threat to anybody at that point-the Tuskens arguably were. They're both appalling actions, but Dooku's killing was a calm action with no mitigating circumstances for Anakin.[/I]

 

Actually he looked quite pissed off when he killed Dooku. He may have been a bit calmer but not by much. He also didn't just kill all the Tusken in his path, he systematically hunted them down, all of them, til the last person. Why do I know this? Because he himself said he killed all of them. All.

What I still not understand is why Luke was supposed to fall after only killing one person who is a monster and when Anakin slaughters an entire tribe he somehow still remains Jedi.

 

It's simply because Anakin was able to hid it from the council, the only ones who knew about him killing the Tuskens were Padme and Palpatine, and the only one who knew about him killing the (literally) unarmed Dooku was Palpatine.

 

I haven't posted in several months; however, I thought this thread was worth commenting on after reading several posts about the ANH duel. I can see how many people are not in favor of the duel; however, listed below is an alternative perspective that you might find interesting, it is not based in opinion alone, lets call it an informed opinion.

I truly believe that Lucas was aiming for a classical kendoesque feel to the duel between Obi-wan and Vader in ANH. You can clearly see the similarities in Obi-wan's style through his use of consistent movement (circular movement/change of direction), feinting, and the change of tempo. These were all classical kendo/open hand fighting techniques used to control the distance between he and Vader. As a result, Obi-wan controlled the duel up until the moment he sacrificed himself for the purpose of saving Luke, Han, Leia, etc. In essence, most Kendo/Martial Arts experts subscribe to the philosophy of doing more with less as a strategy for high level fighting.

Now granted, these were two aged and worn combatants, I understand this; however, there is still great depth to the nature of their duel which is subtle but yet sophisticated. Watch any samurai film for a reference and you will see similar movements, even between younger practitioners. I wouldn't be so quick to just dismiss the duel as corny or bad choreography. Just for the purpose of context, I speak from a position of over 28 years of experience as a practitioner of Okinawan Martial Arts so I possess a fairly refined understanding of fighting/strategy when it comes to the combative arts.

Lastly, I truly believe a balance can be found for the sequel trilogy in terms of the lightsaber combat. The audience has evolved and I truly believe that is the reason for the flashy, high drama duels of the PT; however, many of them lacked depth/feeling in my opinion. Action for the sake of action if you will, nothing was purposefully driven.