Lightning is a Sith Power!!

Aunecah_Skywalker wrote:
you'll realize that they both insinuated that Force-lightning is a Sith power (even if it is not a Sith-only power). Not only that, the reasoning provided only included the fact that two Sith used it. I called the author on that conclusion.

Sorry, but I think you still misunderstand me. What you showed is that the two premises do not logically entail the conclusion. I don't think anyone ever claimed that they did - what was claimed was that they confirm or support the conclusion.

Your analogies do show that the two premises do not entail that Force lightning is a Sith power.

However, they do not show that the premises do not confirm that Force lightning is a Sith power (and in fact the premises do confirm it).

Sorry to belabor this point, but I don't like to leave any misunderstanding unaddressed.

 

Aiwendil:

Your analogies do show that the two premises do not entail that Force lightning is a Sith power.

However, they do not show that the premises do not confirm that Force lightning is a Sith power (and in fact the premises do confirm it).

And that was not my point. My analogies were there simply to show that you can't prove that Force-lightning is a Sith power by showing that two Sith have used it. I thought I made it pretty clear in my previous posts.

Sorry, but I think you still misunderstand me. What you showed is that the two premises do not logically entail the conclusion. I don't think anyone ever claimed that they did - what was claimed was that they confirm or support the conclusion.

No, I understood you perfectly. I'm just trying to make you understand me perfectly. KfistoRex wasn't arguing that Dooku and Palpatine using DS supported his claim but rather that it entailed his claim. At least, it could have been interpreted that way, considering that in the previous sentence he said:

and you know it! So stop trying to tell yourself it could be used on the light side. Jedi Knight Academy must have clouded your vision if you believe otherwise.

(emphasis mine)

KfistoRex said that Force-lightning couldn't be used by the Jedi Knights (and in fact said later on that he thought Yoda was using the Dark Side: "It's a dark side power. Yoda only used it, because absorbing it and redirecting it was the only way to not be baked.") which ties into the Force-lightning being a Sith power. The only "argument" that he provided was that Palpatine and Dooku used it, which, taking everything else that he said into consideration, makes my interpretation legitimate.

-Aunecah

 

So the argument that the power is destructive in nature and has only been used for attack means nothing? I never said a Jedi couldn't use the power. I merely asked, why would they? It goes against their nature to do so.

For a very broad analogy, people can murder, "good" and "bad" alike. But when someone murders someone else, it is seen as being "bad", not "good", therefore a "good" person would never do that, even though they could. Dooku mentioned becoming more powerful right before he used his Force Lightning. I take this to mean that Jedi are not taught this ability, probably because it is seen as a "bad" power. Again, that doesn't mean they couldn't also have that power, but why would a "good" guy want to do something "bad"?

I apologize for the clunky and broad analogy, but there ya go.

L8r

 

RS: For a very broad analogy, people can murder, "good" and "bad" alike. But when someone murders someone else, it is seen as being "bad", not "good", therefore a "good" person would never do that, even though they could. Dooku mentioned becoming more powerful right before he used his Force Lightning. I take this to mean that Jedi are not taught this ability, probably because it is seen as a "bad" power. Again, that doesn't mean they couldn't also have that power, but why would a "good" guy want to do something "bad"?

But good guys "murder" other people all the time - in self-defense. Therefore that isn't considered "murder" but rather legitimate killing, which is, for SW purposes, clearly moral.

In the same way, I'm saying that Force-lightning itself has nothing bad about it - unless, of course, you need to draw on DS for using it. But since we don't know that you need to tap into DS for using it, you can't assume that it's "destructive" or "bad" or anything like that. It's completely possible that a Jedi could use Force-lightning through the Light Side of the Force.

-Aunecah

 

Then why would Dooku show off how powerful he has become by using Force Lightning if it's not a power Jedi use? He did that purposely to show Yoda how much stronger he has become. Then Yoda made a comment about the dark side being in Dooku. I think there's more evidence pointing to FL being a dark side power than not.

L8r

 

Aunecah_Skywalker:

We seem to be in complete agreement. I understand that all you were doing was showing that the conclusion is not entailed. My only point was that that doesn't mean that the two premises of KfistoRox cannot be used to support the conlusion.

As for whether he meant that it was entailed or merely supported - who knows? I could very well say something like "Stop trying to tell yourself that quantum mechanics is false. It's true and you know it," by which I mean of course not that QM is proven but rather that it is, in my view, highly confirmed. That's why I thought he did not mean entailed, but rather supported.

It's all rather moot.

 

goodness think about it, I read a Knife is used for killing someone but a pencil is not. A KNIFE CUTS THE MEAT FOR YOU TO EAT! A pencil can sign away at a contract putting your family on the streets. EVERYTHING that is evil can be used the opposite way, and EVERYTHING that we know of as good could be used for evil purpouses.

Stop thinking of expanded universe, think of common sense, and the movies!

The lightsabor is the weapon of the jedi knight, then why do sith use them, wouldnt that make jedi evil, or sith good? see where this is going. Just cause its used for one thing doesnt mean it cant be used for another.

 

Exactly RogueScribner! Dooku boasts how powerful he has become and then uses Force (Sith) Lightning to prove it! And after that Yoda comes to the conclusion that Dooku has given himself to the Dark Side.
Nobody actually says that "Hey, Force Lightning is a Dark Side power", but I think that this is more than clear. There is no need to explain everything in detail, viewers of a film should have the minimal required reasoning to understand some things.
Aunecah_Skywalker, I think you are stretching your thoughts on this matter more than you should do. Just relax and enjoy the obvious facts...

 

common sense again, please.

When dooku uses the lightening for an offensive possition it would be clear that he is using the dark side. If the place was caving in ont hem and the engine of a shuttle craft dooku was using to try to save the jedi and used lightening to juice it up, then yoda would have said. "Embrace the light side, you still do."

ITS THE ACTION NOT THE OBJECT!

 

In the ROTJ screenplay, when the Emperor approaches Luke after he bested Vader, it reads:


INT. EMPEROR'S TOWER - THRONE ROOM
Luke stands still as the Emperor faces him at the bottom of the stairs.

EMPEROR
If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed.

The Emperor raises his arms towards Luke. Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's hands at Luke with such speed and power, the young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling.


The Emperor goes on to say, "Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side," as he continues to demonstrate the heretofore unseen Force Lightning ability.

There are things I can point out in support of Force Lightning being a dark side ability, but I have yet to see anything of substance to say that it isn't. Is it spelled out in the movies? No, but it is very explicitly implied by the words and actions of Yoda, Dooku, and the Emperor (even the ROTJ screenplay!). What else are we to assume if we never hear of or witness a Jedi using this unique ability? Face it: it's a dark side power.

L8r

 

face it its not

THE FORCE IS LIKE AN ENERGY SHEILD, IT DOES NOT DECIDE WHICH POWERS IT WILL DELEGATE TO EACH SIDE COMMON SENSE PLEASE!

It is USED by the dark side, just like heal is USED by the lightside, the force didnt just go "well, I think I'll give the dark side these powers because they USUALLY bring destruction, and the light side these powers because they USUALLY bring upon good hapenings.

Jeez! think please!

Yes the emporer uses lightening because it is destructive. That doesnt mean it cant be constructive.

Jedi use persuasion because it is helpful (the deathstix incident) that DOES NOT mean a sith lord cant persuade the same person to slice their wrist with a vibroblade. I mean, come on.

 

Until such time that I witness a Jedi use Force Lightning constructively, it will be a dark side power. The only uses for it thus far have been to inflict pain and/or kill, a decidedly non-Jedi trait. I maintain that if a Jedi were to use it in battle, they would be tapping into the more negative aspects of their nature (or, the dark side of the force) and thus would be betraying their philosophy.

Again, I never said it was a power that couldn't be used by any Force user, simply that it wouldn't be used by someone professing to be a part of the light side of the Force. Force Lightning is not a constructive power and only people tapping into their darker sensibilities would ever use it.

L8r

 

i agree, rouge
i like your thinking.

 

I dissagree, lightening itself is not evil. When you embrase the darkside you embrase your deeper emotions, or you ignore them with the lightside. You are not delegated with certain powers and restricted ot others.

 

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence- never for attack."

I'd love to see how/why someone could generate a bolt of force-lightning without it being used to attack.

 

I'd love to see how/why someone could generate a bolt of force-lightning without it being used to attack.

The same way somebody could use a lightsaber and kill someone without using it for attack.

Suppose that a Jedi find themselves against twenty people who are all desperately trying to kill him. He doesn't have his lightsaber with him and they are too strong-willed for him to mindtrick his way out. But he can use the Force-lightning to kill him - and, like I said, if the voltage is high enough then it could mean quick death, not prolonged torture. In this case, the Jedi wouldn't be using the Force-lightning for attack but rather for self-defense, which is perfectly acceptable.

I'm weary of seeing actions or objects, themselves, as good or bad. Almost everything can be used for either good or bad. Just because the consequences of using it for bad are horrible does NOT make the object itself an inherently bad thing.

-Aunecah

 

>>>>In this case, the Jedi wouldn't be using the Force-lightning for attack but rather for self-defense, which is perfectly acceptable.

I'd still say he would be using the Force to attack someone. Sure, it would be out of self defence, but it's still attacking the threat- an offensive assault, using the Force as a weapon.

You seem to be defining the morality depending purely on the actions of the guy on the receiving end of the lightning- effectively, you seem to be saying that it's OK to do something bad (ie. Force-lightning) so long as it's used on someone who is doing something bad, as if two wrongs cancel one another out.

>>>>The same way somebody could use a lightsaber and kill someone without using it for attack.

I don't think they could- well, short of accidentally switching it on while it happened to be a few inches away from someones face...
If you're swinging a lightsaber at someone, you're attacking them with it- as far as I can see, it's that simple. Whether the guy you're swinging it at is about to attack you, in the middle of attacking you or lying helpless on the floor, it's still an attack on them.

 

You seem to be defining the morality depending purely on the actions of the guy on the receiving end of the lightning- effectively, you seem to be saying that it's OK to do something bad (ie. Force-lightning) so long as it's used on someone who is doing something bad, as if two wrongs cancel one another out.

I'm sorry?

Most people would consider killing an innocent person wrong and killing a non-innocent person (in self-defense) okay. What are they doing? Saying that two bads cancel each other out?

Most people would consider slapping people randomly is wrong while slapping a person who truly "deserves" it is okay. What are they saying? That two bad cancel each other out?

Perhaps it would be better if I spelled out my position since at least one person always seem to misunderstand what I took for common consensus:

Force-lightning in itself is neither bad or good.

Depending on the intent of the person using Force-lightning, the person may or may not have to tap into the Dark Side to use the Force-lightning.

Have I made myself clear enough?

-Aunecah

 

I don't think it's ever "okay" to take the life of another, but in certain circumstances (such as when it's in self defence when one's own life is in danger) it's justified in the eyes of society.

However, the Force isn't a simple question of morality and what is and isn't acceptable in court- I don't think that there's conditions where using the Dark Side is considered acceptable, such as in self defence etc. (I certainly didn't see any Jedi using the Force to attack anyone in AOTC.)

As I see it, there is no way that a Jedi could use Force-lightning that wouldn't be tapping into the dark side, and the morality of the Force is quite plainly laid out in the films- "if once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny- consume you it will."

I agree that with something like a gun, a knife, mind tricks, telekenesis etc. there are both good and bad ways of using them, but I don't think that there's a "certain point of view" that can make using the Force to attack someone in a way as extreme as creating bolts of pure energy and firing them at someone anything other than the Dark Side.

 

I don't think that there's conditions where using the Dark Side is considered acceptable

Scott, Force-lightning (when done so that the person dies a quick death) is no different than a Jedi sticking a lightsaber in somebody else's stomach or shooting somebody with a blaster. In fact, in the latter two cases, the person can suffer at least a couple of moments of pain or torture (Qui-Gon survived until the end of the battle in TPM). So, if a Jedi can use a lightsaber and a blaster, why can't he use Force-lightning, especially if he creates a strong enough Force-lightning so that the person dies instantly?

-Aunecah

 

>>>>Scott, Force-lightning (when done so that the person dies a quick death) is no different than a Jedi sticking a lightsaber in somebody else's stomach or shooting somebody with a blaster.

Sure it is, because it's using the Force. The Dark Side isn't something to be dipped into and out of when you've got a good enough excuse. I mean, if you were angry about someone who had done something evil (like, say, kill your mother...) would that somehow not be the Dark Side if your anger was justified?

 

Again, how do you know (or why do you think) that a person has to tap into the Dark Side to use Force-lightning? You can't assume what you're arguing and then start from there.

I'm saying that Force-lightning can be accessed from both the Light Side and the Dark Side, and which way it is accessed from depends on the intent of the person accessing it. A Sith would access it to torture or kill somebody else, in anger or hatred or whatever. A Jedi would access it in the interest of defending himself, feeling regret that the person had to die but having no choice but to kill him.

-Aunecah

 

There is significant evidence to heavily prove it is a dark side power and none to prove it is not.

 

Again, how do you know (or why do you think) that a person has to tap into the Dark Side to use Force-lightning?

I think I've offered plenty of evidence as to why. Dooku's comments about his power. Yoda's comments about the dark side in reference to Dooku's power. The Emperor's comments. The ROTJ screenplay quote ("evil lightning"). The only people we've seen use Force Lightning draw their power from the dark side of the Force. We have never seen, nor will we ever see, a Jedi use Force Lightning. How do you explain this? Lucas can't afford to do the effects shots for the good guys? Or could it be that he considers Force Lightning a dark side power?

Your arguments that Force Lightning could be used constructively are irrelevant. All that matters is what we have seen and what we can deduce from the facts at hand. I have yet to see any facts from the opposite side of the argument to make me think Force Lightning is anything but a dark side power. I've seen many compelling arguments for why any Force user could use this power, and how this power doesn't necessarily have to be used for evil purposes, but not one successfully debunks the idea that Force Lightning is a dark side power.

Why aren't Jedi trained to use it? Why didn't Yoda throw some of his own FL Dooku's way? A senior Jedi such as himself should have no problem, correct? He doesn't do it. Why? Either because he can't or because he chooses not to. Why would he choose not to? Because that ability is viewed philosophically by the Jedi order as being a negative power. This power is only meant to inflict pain and death upon people, not to restart failed engines or cut down tree limbs. Yoda does not let anger and hate cloud his heart and mind. He remains calm and focused. He uses positive Force abilities, not destructive ones. He remains philosophically pure, while Dooku is philosophically corrupt. Yoda chooses not to open the door to his baser instincts and use Force Lightning. He's better than that.

The only being who would ever stoop to using Force Lightning is someone travelling down the dark path. Palpatine. Dooku.

YODA: A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware the dark side. Anger . . . fear . . . aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.

LUKE: Vader. Is the dark side stronger?

YODA: No . . . no . . . no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

LUKE: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?

YODA: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

Force Lightning has always been used for attack in the films. It is not a defensive power. By Yoda's definition of the Force, Force Lightning is a dark side power.

Hey, I'd love to know that a Jedi could/would use Force Lightning. That means in EU or fan fic we can have a lightning duel instead of a saber duel! But, sadly, all evidence points to Force Lightning only being used by dark side Force users and not the good guys. If a supposed good guy did in fact use it, he would be tapping into his baser instincts (the realm of the dark side) and not adhering to Jedi philosophy.

L8r

 

Throw it doooooooown RogueScribner!